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Thoughts on Scorpions.

Provided their hth prowess remains much as it is, those Mandiblasters should see them excel in butchering light and medium infantry, as they all add up the Battleshock score. So a squad of 10 stand a good chance of Battleshocking units off the board in the second round - which is pretty ideal as it frees them up for their next player turn.

Assuming of course Mandiblasters aren't a charge bonus thing, instead activating every combat round

str00dles1 wrote:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
The "we can't show you everything, but we'll give you a taste of what's happening and hint at stuff coming later!" Attitude is really annoying, while I know it's designed to stir up hype it just ends up creating "technically not baseless but functionally baseless" speculation and gets annoying with all the waiting. It'll be really funny if when we have enough info and leaks and start piecing the codexes together a few weeks from launch, and they're still hyping like the new edition is a year away. The tiny amount of info every day feels like the community is on an I.V drip, and I wish that we'd get enough crunch to actually do something with in weekly dumps and the hyperbole and hype in avoidable daily posts. Or they could run an ARG or something, that way it would feel like we're actively participating in discovering the new rules.

The only thing I would hope for is they release stats and such a week or two ahead of the release so you know what to buy. That's what I hate. People now are not buying or very much slowing down any purchases because we don't know anything besides a few marines and part of an elder. Not even asking for rules, just stats to see weapons and such. I cant see how they think its a good business process to release no info really so people wont buy your product. Does only effect new players though or people looking to buy new armies. I have been buying admech and buying/painting them up for 8th but im purely guessing on weapon loadouts.

Yea I wanted to start a pole to find out who was buying still and so on but it was ignored unfortunately, I was in the I WONT BUY ANOTHER THING UNTIL I KNOW THE RULES! camp then they released the gorka/morka naut data sheet, that pretty much sealed the deal I'm massing deff dreads kanz nauts now, painting away reading this thread.

Ok I don't like this mandiblaster doing mortal damage stuff. I fear they are going to give mortal damage to way too many stuff. Also it doesn't seem supported in any way by the current fluff for the mandiblaster, though they could retcon it and that would be okay because they will also retcon female marines in and that's great.


But that Facebook recap makes me fear that Sisters will still only be in the “Agents of the Imperium” thingy rather than on their own.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

Well, I guess I see scorpions as being good at tearing through a lot of weak or lightly armored infantry (with lots of shots from shuriken pistols and mandiblasters and chainswords to tear flesh). I see banshees as being good at taking out elite infantry, with power swords to go through better armor and banshee masks to reduce the effectiveness of a better opponent.

Yeah, this is how I always interpreted their roles. The mortal wound thing messes this up, as now Scorpions are good against heavily armoured opponents too.

Also, for all the rationalisations of mortal mandiblasters, let's not forget that MWs bypass invulnerable saves, meaning forcefields. How is that supposed to make sense?

And this is not only about mandiblasters, It makes me fear that MW abilities are dished out generously without rhyme or reason, instead of being super rare as I think they should.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

But that Facebook recap makes me fear that Sisters will still only be in the “Agents of the Imperium” thingy rather than on their own.

I don't care about the name on their codex cover, I just want plastic models!

Because forcefields aren't skin tight, they can get inside them.

That was actually the drawback of the old 2nd Ed Power Field iirc.

 Crimson wrote:

Yeah, this is how I always interpreted their roles. The mortal wound thing messes this up, as now Scorpions are good against heavily armoured opponents too.

Also, for all the rationalisations of mortal mandiblasters, let's not forget that MWs bypass invulnerable saves, meaning forcefields. How is that supposed to make sense?

And this is not only about mandiblasters, It makes me fear that MW abilities are dished out generously without rhyme or reason, instead of being super rare as I think they should.

Can't think of a forcefield that works in CC at the moment.

So...one unit gets mortal wounds and now they're being handed out willy nilly. The aspiring sorcerer got a downgraded Smite - willy nilly indeed.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Because forcefields aren't skin tight, they can get inside them.

That was actually the drawback of the old 2nd Ed Power Field iirc.

By that logic, all close combat attacks should ignore invulnerable saves.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Because forcefields aren't skin tight, they can get inside them.

And that's why Iron Halo doesn't work in melee... wait, it does!

Yeah.

50% of the time...

Daedalus81 wrote:

Can't think of a forcefield that works in CC at the moment.

Umm... almost all of them?

So...one unit gets mortal wounds and now they're being handed out willy nilly. The aspiring sorcerer got a downgraded Smite - willy nilly indeed.

If this unit had been Wraithguard with their distortion weapons, I would not be worried. But they gave it to a glorified taser... If they felt that warranted MWs, almost anything could. (I was not thrilled about the basic psychic power that everyone gets dishing out MWs either.)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Thoughts on Scorpions.

Provided their hth prowess remains much as it is, those Mandiblasters should see them excel in butchering light and medium infantry, as they all add up the Battleshock score. So a squad of 10 stand a good chance of Battleshocking units off the board in the second round - which is pretty ideal as it frees them up for their next player turn.

Assuming of course Mandiblasters aren't a charge bonus thing, instead activating every combat round

Another thing that strikes (pun?) me as possible is that Chainswords may actually be AP -1. In the old system giving them AP6/5 just didn't do much, but armour modification could better represent what a Chainsword can do. Although I doubt they would keep the +1 str and be AP -1. Probably one or the other for balance sake.

-

 Crimson wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

But that Facebook recap makes me fear that Sisters will still only be in the “Agents of the Imperium” thingy rather than on their own.

I don't care about the name on their codex cover, I just want plastic models!

That's not something I could contradict .

 Crimson wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

Well, I guess I see scorpions as being good at tearing through a lot of weak or lightly armored infantry (with lots of shots from shuriken pistols and mandiblasters and chainswords to tear flesh). I see banshees as being good at taking out elite infantry, with power swords to go through better armor and banshee masks to reduce the effectiveness of a better opponent.

Yeah, this is how I always interpreted their roles. The mortal wound thing messes this up, as now Scorpions are good against heavily armoured opponents too.

This is a bit of conjecture.

We don't know that they deal an obscene number of mortal wounds or anything of that nature. For all we know, they deal a Mortal Wound to a single model within a certain distance of them.

Also, for all the rationalisations of mortal mandiblasters, let's not forget that MWs bypass invulnerable saves, meaning forcefields. How is that supposed to make sense?
And this is not only about mandiblasters, It makes me fear that MW abilities are dished out generously without rhyme or reason, instead of being super rare as I think they should.

Oh, you mean like how D/pseudo-D weapons were absurdly common in one army(Eldar) and every other army had to pay out the wazoo for one or two specific units with them?

We got mention of two sources of Mortal Wounds so far for Eldar. Asurmen's sword can potentially cause them and Scorpion Mandiblasters can cause them.

I'd be more concerned if they said that Shuriken Catapults caused Mortal Wounds.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yeah.

50% of the time...

So because save can fail it is same than ignoring the save completely? Brilliant logic there. I mean because terminators can fail saves against laspistols, it totally means laspistols should deal Mortal Wounds...

 Crimson wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Can't think of a forcefield that works in CC at the moment.

Umm... almost all of them?

So...one unit gets mortal wounds and now they're being handed out willy nilly. The aspiring sorcerer got a downgraded Smite - willy nilly indeed.

If this unit had been Wraithguard with their distortion weapons, I would not be worried. But they gave it to a glorified taser... If they felt that warranted MWs, almost anything could. (I was not thrilled about the basic psychic power that everyone gets dishing out MWs either.)

Sorry my brain was going to like literal bubble force fields for a moment there.

AoS has quite a lot of mortal wounds, and it's actually an important equalizer to prevent things like the infamous near-invulnerable 2+ re-roll deathstar. You can build a super powerful character/elite unit decked out with gear and buffed by psychic powers, but you can't just charge up the field taking everything the opponent has without flinching because you still have to worry about mortal wounds munching up your expensive guys. It can go wrong though, if it overly penalizes elite armies that don't have any chaff to soak up mortal wounds for example. It's a tough balance to strike but it does add an extra layer to the game and I quite like the mechanic in AoS. AoS actually has invulnerable saves as well, although not as a core mechanic. Some units have special rules that say, for example, "this unit ignores rend values below -2."

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ok I don't like this mandiblaster doing mortal damage stuff. I fear they are going to give mortal damage to way too many stuff. Also it doesn't seem supported in any way by the current fluff for the mandiblaster, though they could retcon it and that would be okay because they will also retcon female marines in and that's great.


But that Facebook recap makes me fear that Sisters will still only be in the “Agents of the Imperium” thingy rather than on their own.

To be fair to your Sisters worries, given that there are only going to be a handful of codexes on launch all Imperium non-space marine forces will likely get consolidated into one book, so IG and Knights will probably get the same treatment.

I think mortal wounds should really be restricted to things that mess with reality. Like if you pull a God Emperor and discharge so much psychic energy that it literally kills somebody's soul, that should be a mortal wound.

Singular because something like that should have the old instant death rule

 Crimson wrote:

So...one unit gets mortal wounds and now they're being handed out willy nilly. The aspiring sorcerer got a downgraded Smite - willy nilly indeed.

If this unit had been Wraithguard with their distortion weapons, I would not be worried. But they gave it to a glorified taser... If they felt that warranted MWs, almost anything could. (I was not thrilled about the basic psychic power that everyone gets dishing out MWs either.)

I don't know what kind of tasers you're seeing used, but man. That is not a taser.

 Mymearan wrote:
Some units have special rules that say, for example, "this unit ignores rend values below -2."

Yea, Rubrics show an example of that in their own special way, which is why the bespoke rules kick ass. In my opinion.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

So...one unit gets mortal wounds and now they're being handed out willy nilly. The aspiring sorcerer got a downgraded Smite - willy nilly indeed.

If this unit had been Wraithguard with their distortion weapons, I would not be worried. But they gave it to a glorified taser... If they felt that warranted MWs, almost anything could. (I was not thrilled about the basic psychic power that everyone gets dishing out MWs either.)

I don't know what kind of tasers you're seeing used, but man. That is not a taser.

The kind that "stun" you by ripping holes in reality?

If Mortal Wound SPam becomes meta... thats only good news for horde armies like Tyranids and Orks.
Nothing more beautiful that going to a tournament with my 100 bloodreavers Bloodbound and the face of my oponent when he sees that his mortal-wound Skyfires are practically useless

 Crimson wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yeah.

50% of the time...

So because save can fail it is same than ignoring the save completely? Brilliant logic there. I mean because terminators can fail saves against laspistols, it totally means laspistols should deal Mortal Wounds...

No, it means there's are in universe reasons why that save fails, one of those reason may be the conventional melee attack gets inside the space protected by the field. I'd say a space elf who's been practicing for centuries with his chosen discipline's signature weapon should be quite adept at that.

Or it just gives the game piece a reason to exist and be utilised, and people are losing their minds over small details.

Definitely one or the other.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
I think mortal wounds should really be restricted to things that mess with reality. Like if you pull a God Emperor and discharge so much psychic energy that it literally kills somebody's soul, that should be a mortal wound.

Singular because something like that should have the old instant death rule

I think there are quite a few things that could represent mortal wounds. For example:

- Crushing blows that would pulverize the person inside the armour
- Psychic attacks that attack the mind and not the body
- Precise attacks that target weak points
- Weapons that attack your senses, for example sonic attacks, blinding attacks etc

Christ over reaction much. Peeps are acting like scorpions auto inflict 30 Mortal wounds if you deploy them on the table.

Manti blasters may be something like "each unit of scorpions rolls 3D6 at the start of the fight phase. Inflict a mortal wound for each 6 rolled". Useful certainly but not carving through units of Titans either.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Hey now...Striking Scorpions were a decent alternative to Banshee's in 2nd ed.

Well, I guess I see scorpions as being good at tearing through a lot of weak or lightly armored infantry (with lots of shots from shuriken pistols and mandiblasters and chainswords to tear flesh). I see banshees as being good at taking out elite infantry, with power swords to go through better armor and banshee masks to reduce the effectiveness of a better opponent.

I've always thought they would be better at reversed roles - scorpions being assassins sent in to (stealthily) hunt down and kill individual characters (like a Predator on a hunt - see the exarch model), whereas the Banshees were a bit like whirling dervishes who leap into a swarm of troops to cut them to ribbons.

Overall, I don't know if it was just the units they did pick, but it seems to be that the Eldar are going to be the ones who ignore the regular rules (go first when not charging, ignoring armor with their attacks, moving faster than any other army, etc.)

 Mymearan wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
I think mortal wounds should really be restricted to things that mess with reality. Like if you pull a God Emperor and discharge so much psychic energy that it literally kills somebody's soul, that should be a mortal wound.

Singular because something like that should have the old instant death rule

I think there are quite a few things that could represent mortal wounds. For example:

- Crushing blows that would pulverize the person inside the armour

Grav weapons are now mortal wounds, confirmed.

 Mymearan wrote:

I think there are quite a few things that could represent mortal wounds. For example:

- Crushing blows that would pulverize the person inside the armour
- Weapons that attack your senses, for example sonic attacks, blinding attacks etc

I don't agree. Tougher things should still be more resilient. Both of these can be represented with normal S, AP & Damage mechanic.

- Psychic attacks that attack the mind and not the body
- Precise attacks that target weak points

These two are probably fine.

People upset than eldar get some rule breaking OP abilities?

Where have you been the last 2 editions?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
People upset than eldar get some rule breaking OP abilities?

That's not it.