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2012/10/24 19:59:11
Subject: Thoughts on the direction I should go with the 40k fanfiction wiki
I've been thinking again about the direction that I want to go in with Sturmkrieg, especially in the wake of the Stardust Empire.
Our main goal has been to provide an easy to use website for posting stories and articles about player created content in the 40k universe. This is helped by the way that wikis allow for template creation and easy insertion of internal links. The open style of the articles also helps create a sense of community and allows for collaboration with writing.
Because of this style, it means that everyone's work is in a single comprehensive encyclopedia; this makes it good for people who want to go read about the 40k background, and who want more than just what the official background provides. This also means that it's important for everything to be consistent, in order for it all to fit within the same universe, and for readers to have faith in the site, and know that whatever they read will fit within the 40k storyline.
Keeping everything within consistency in the 40k universe requires regulation for fanfiction, to make sure that nothing becomes "impossible." I don't believe that this needs to be a very strict definition of canon consistency that puts tight restrictions on writers, especially since the official background isn't always entirely consistent. Rather, I think that consistency should be enforced to a smilar extent as it is with Black Library; writers get a lot of freedom to create what they want, but they can't do anything that blatantly contradicts established canon.
The overall goal is to create a communal encyclopedia where writers can add to and expand the 40k universe. The nature of the wiki encyclopedia means that completely contradicting and inconsistent fanfiction can be removed.
As an extension of the last idea, I question whether we should moderate for quality of fanfiction. I don't think it would be necessary to require everything to be really well written and for everyone to be really good writers, but rather that excessively Mary Sue characters and the like would require changes. We'd also work with writers to alter fluff rather than outright deleting it. The goal here would be to create a good fanfiction encyclopedia that would be free of the traditional flaws that turn people away from it, and to create additional 40k background that people would be interested in reading.
What do you think?
EDIT:
I also added a Google Author tool for writers to use to link their articles with their Google+ profile, which I believe would help their search results and also displays their name under the link in the search result for more personalization. I'm going to see if this could also be added to Dakka articles.
Users who write a lot -probably around 100 articles, but no official policy yet- can get their own category and portal: http://en.sturmkrieg.com/Portal:Volianvan - Example
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/10/24 22:56:48
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
Maybe you could implement a community lore approved or something, just a little tag that says the current page fits within the universe based on votes or moderation.
I like what you are trying to do and can only wish you the best.
Edit: if I wasn't so hungry I would probably have more thaghts hehe :(
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/24 20:30:04
2012/10/24 22:53:32
Subject: Thoughts on the direction I should go with the 40k fanfiction wiki
Apple fox wrote: Maybe you could implement a community lore approved or something, just a little tag that says the current page fits within the universe based on votes or moderation.
I like what you are trying to do and can only wish you the best.
Edit: if I wasn't so hungry I would probably have more thaghts hehe :(
Thanks. I think that because of the nature of the site that it might be better to have everything in-universe consistent and have a way of marking articles that deviate. That would be good for humor articles that would be more focused on creating funny situations rather than a consistent extension of the 40k universe. We have an extension to create custom CSS pages and in-page CSS, so we could easily style such articles differently to make them easily recognizable.
We could also have some sort of a peer review process for articles where users could read them and determine if they're of good quality and have exceptional consistency, and indicate the status with some sort of badge. The only problem though is I see such badges being heavily misused when the site becomes popular. If we included the name of the article on the badge and wrote out the code for it each time rather than using a template, it might deter a lot of new comers from trying to copy it.
I've looked at various voting extensions, and I think that a voting system for giving feedback on articles would be really good. The only issue though is that the ability to down vote can be misused, and you could end up with people down voting other users' articles just because they don't like the author of the canon that the article is based off of or something like that. We have a Google +1 button and Facebook recommend button that serve a similar purpose as voting. There is the small downside though that +1s and probably FB likes are lost if the page is renamed, as opposed to an in-wiki system. One potential benefit is that it seems that people can remove their +1s, which would be useful if the author took their fluff in a horrible direction; they wouldn't be stuck with glowing reviews. I believe that the +1 button also increases the Google search ranking for that page, which would be a good reward for users who write good material.
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
I don't know what a single link means, but I'm guessing you're suggesting that I look for some sort of layout advice there. It's an official background website, so there isn't much in terms of purpose. The portal style is good, but the colors don't work well with the dark style and the layout of the boxes creates a minimum width that can be problematic for small monitors. wh40k.lexicanum.de has a portal for humor that could work well. We could also use per page CSS to change the background color to make the humor articles more obvious.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 16:00:56
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
I have a simple answer: cite your sources. Don't use citations in the writing or anything obstructive, but at the end of the work write something like 'this concept comes from the Kaban Machine'.
Yes, you do need to police your articles to set a quality standard. The majority of writers will be just trying to learn their craft, but the average reader doesn't care; the average reader just wants a good story. You can't have an audience if no one is reading because the good stuff is mixed in with the crap. I think the best idea would be to partition the beginners from the real content creators. It lets the average reader get what they want and gives a clear goal to the people who want to get better.
I have a simple answer: cite your sources. Don't use citations in the writing or anything obstructive, but at the end of the work write something like 'this concept comes from the Kaban Machine'.
Yes, you do need to police your articles to set a quality standard. The majority of writers will be just trying to learn their craft, but the average reader doesn't care; the average reader just wants a good story. You can't have an audience if no one is reading because the good stuff is mixed in with the crap. I think the best idea would be to partition the beginners from the real content creators. It lets the average reader get what they want and gives a clear goal to the people who want to get better.
Thanks.
I've thought that sources might have a place for a fanfiction wiki, as a way of showing that something operates within the way it was created officially. It would be good for anything that gets contested for consistency. Probably what we would require though would be "primary" sources, which would be referencing the pages of books where the element appears in canon. This would be to prevent errors in interpretations that would result from someone reading, interpreting, and rewriting the information, or just being wrong.
Based on your suggestions, it seems like it might be good to establish a form of peer review for articles for quality and consistency, and have a way of indicating the articles as having passed the review. The way I imagine doing this would be to have some sort of badge that could be added to articles. The major downside is that I see a lot of new users falsely adding the badges to their own work without review.
Both categories of content would still need to have quality standards. While unreviewed work would not need to be great, it should still be free of stupidity or total mary sues.
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
I've seen that. It's at Wikia, and the skin is nearly unusable and the ads are like Tyrannids; it is the grimdarkness of the 41st millennium and there is only advertising.
And another serious problem with their wiki:
They also admit that they aren't writing in the 40k universe: "We also write our own Warhammer 40k alternate timeline" - http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/%22Defiance%22_Timeline_(DAT) If I wanted to write an "alternate 40k universe," I'd make Sascha Krieger the emperor and gak, the Stardust Empire might even make it in too!
Their author template for their articles (their version of our Template:Createdby) is called "property" which is bad for several reasons. It could give the impression that the IP of the article is owned by that user. It could also send the message to users that they shouldn't allow other users to edit their articles; manners says users should ask first, but designating wiki articles as "property" of a user is really against the spirit of the wikis.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/10/25 20:47:39
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
I've seen that. It's at Wikia, and the skin is nearly unusable and the ads are like Tyrannids; it is the grimdarkness of the 41st millennium and there is only advertising.
And another serious problem with their wiki:
They also admit that they aren't writing in the 40k universe:
"We also write our own Warhammer 40k alternate timeline" - http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/%22Defiance%22_Timeline_(DAT)
If I wanted to write an "alternate 40k universe," I'd make Sascha Krieger the emperor and gak, the Stardust Empire might even make it in too!
Their author template for their articles (their version of our Template:Createdby) is called "property" which is bad for several reasons. It could give the impression that the IP of the article is owned by that user. It could also send the message to users that they shouldn't allow other users to edit their articles; manners says users should ask first, but designating wiki articles as "property" of a user is really against the spirit of the wikis.
They have several alternate time lines, not one single one.
No, the property template helps against plagiarism.
They need ads to keep the wiki running.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
2012/10/25 22:37:26
Subject: Thoughts on the direction I should go with the 40k fanfiction wiki
I've seen that. It's at Wikia, and the skin is nearly unusable and the ads are like Tyrannids; it is the grimdarkness of the 41st millennium and there is only advertising.
And another serious problem with their wiki:
They also admit that they aren't writing in the 40k universe:
"We also write our own Warhammer 40k alternate timeline" - http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/%22Defiance%22_Timeline_(DAT)
If I wanted to write an "alternate 40k universe," I'd make Sascha Krieger the emperor and gak, the Stardust Empire might even make it in too!
Their author template for their articles (their version of our Template:Createdby) is called "property" which is bad for several reasons. It could give the impression that the IP of the article is owned by that user. It could also send the message to users that they shouldn't allow other users to edit their articles; manners says users should ask first, but designating wiki articles as "property" of a user is really against the spirit of the wikis.
They have several alternate time lines, not one single one.
No, the property template helps against plagiarism.
They need ads to keep the wiki running.
The first point is actually worse, not better. While there is nothing stopping them from making alternative universes, and they're free to do it, it does mean that their content cannot all be taken in with the general 40k storyline. This is problematic for readers who want to be able to imagine everyone's creations together in the 40k universe without having to create mental partitions. Plus, under a multiple 40k universe view, there's no reason to moderate content when someone writes something like the Stardust Empire.
I don't really see the issue against plagiarism. It's un-wiki like to have one user write an article and then have a prohibition on allowing anyone use content from it; it's not communal, as wikis are supposed to be. For writing wikis though, a user who draws heavily on another user's work does have a moral responsibility to give credit to the previous writer. I also find it really annoying when people get anal about the copyright they probably don't actually have on something that is itself a copyright infringement. TBH, they should be excited that people want to use their work, which is a major reason why fanfiction is allowed by copyright owners in the first place. Also, people who are that worried about people copying their derivative works shouldn't be posting them on the internet, since it's owned by GW, not them. Technically, GW could publish everything on a fanfiction website without credit or payment because it's their IP.
The wiki doesn't need to have that many ads to stay up. Computer storage space is extremely cheap, and text uses hardly any space. Also, Wikia used to have very few ads, then they created a skin specifically to display ads so they could make more profit.
I'm not trying to debunk them as a fanfiction website, only pointing out that they have a different purpose than we do.
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
I've seen that. It's at Wikia, and the skin is nearly unusable and the ads are like Tyrannids; it is the grimdarkness of the 41st millennium and there is only advertising.
And another serious problem with their wiki:
They also admit that they aren't writing in the 40k universe:
"We also write our own Warhammer 40k alternate timeline" - http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/%22Defiance%22_Timeline_(DAT)
If I wanted to write an "alternate 40k universe," I'd make Sascha Krieger the emperor and gak, the Stardust Empire might even make it in too!
Their author template for their articles (their version of our Template:Createdby) is called "property" which is bad for several reasons. It could give the impression that the IP of the article is owned by that user. It could also send the message to users that they shouldn't allow other users to edit their articles; manners says users should ask first, but designating wiki articles as "property" of a user is really against the spirit of the wikis.
They have several alternate time lines, not one single one.
No, the property template helps against plagiarism.
They need ads to keep the wiki running.
The first point is actually worse, not better. While there is nothing stopping them from making alternative universes, and they're free to do it, it does mean that their content cannot all be taken in with the general 40k storyline. This is problematic for readers who want to be able to imagine everyone's creations together in the 40k universe without having to create mental partitions. Plus, under a multiple 40k universe view, there's no reason to moderate content when someone writes something like the Stardust Empire.
I don't really see the issue against plagiarism. It's un-wiki like to have one user write an article and then have a prohibition on allowing anyone use content from it; it's not communal, as wikis are supposed to be. For writing wikis though, a user who draws heavily on another user's work does have a moral responsibility to give credit to the previous writer. I also find it really annoying when people get anal about the copyright they probably don't actually have on something that is itself a copyright infringement. TBH, they should be excited that people want to use their work, which is a major reason why fanfiction is allowed by copyright owners in the first place. Also, people who are that worried about people copying their derivative works shouldn't be posting them on the internet, since it's owned by GW, not them. Technically, GW could publish everything on a fanfiction website without credit or payment because it's their IP.
The wiki doesn't need to have that many ads to stay up. Computer storage space is extremely cheap, and text uses hardly any space. Also, Wikia used to have very few ads, then they created a skin specifically to display ads so they could make more profit.
I'm not trying to debunk them as a fanfiction website, only pointing out that they have a different purpose than we do.
You have no idea how the alternate time lines on the wiki work, so stop being foolish and start reading the rules, the user who made the stardust article would have had his articles deleted, instead of a silly argument where you couldn't take control and let him keep the article up. They would have removed it realising it wasn't going to be debatable.
You don't see an issue with stealing work? It's not copyright, it's annoyance that someone would take their work without permission. Yes GW could, but I doubt they would.
Secondly, the adds aren't controlled by the wiki users, they are controlled by wiki. It costs money to host the servers, and they use adds to pay for them, don't like it? Download add blocker, it's simple.
No, they don't. They have the exact same purpose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 22:51:40
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
2012/10/25 23:46:31
Subject: Thoughts on the direction I should go with the 40k fanfiction wiki
Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:The first point is actually worse, not better. While there is nothing stopping them from making alternative universes, and they're free to do it, it does mean that their content cannot all be taken in with the general 40k storyline. This is problematic for readers who want to be able to imagine everyone's creations together in the 40k universe without having to create mental partitions.
Well, considering that even Black Library operates this way ...
I think you should simply establish a sort of "minimum level of compliance". Black Library publishes many, many books with conflicting information. But at the same time they reject stories that are, how to put it .. "too far out".
Here's something from Gav Thorpe's blog, maybe it helps:
Spoiler:
For the most part these discussions revolved around extrapolations by the authors, extending areas of the backgrounds into subjects that were not relevant to the material needed for tabletop wargames – ‘Does this sound right?’ or ‘Is this how it would work?’. It was rare that we would be passed anything that was so hideously off-the-mark that the story or novel was completely verboten (“we’ve had this story about squats…”). Far from being the black jackboot of authoritarianism, I like to think that we provided possible solutions to problems that cropped up. Sometimes an author or an editor might have a situation they need resolved and would ask for background-friendly suggestions. For instance, an author might want orks invading a moon, but was not sure how the greenies would operate on an airless world. Rather than say that would never happen, we would have a think about it and provided some viable answers (probably something with mobile forcefields in this case…).
That was the day job.
The ability of an author to write within an established setting isn’t about knowing every single detail of the background (though targeted research is always good), it is about understanding the style and ethos of that universe. With a grounding in the principles of that world, an author can extend the logic (or lack) to cover places, people and situations not explicitly detailed in the source material. That’s sort of the point of tie-in fiction; to expand on what is already published, not simply package it up in a slightly different form.
[...]
Often folks ask if Black Library books are ‘canon’. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. There are certainly established facts – the current Emperor is Karl-Franz, the Blood Angels have red armour, Commissar Yarrick defended Hades Hive during the Second Armageddon War. However, to suggest that anything else is non-canon is a disservice to the players and authors who participate in this world. To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.
Whether a particular author’s take on the world matches up with an individual gamer’s or readers is another matter. The fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete.
In this regard it is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.
The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books. And beside, there simply isn’t enough room in those gaming books to include everything from the hundreds of novels – good, bad or indifferent as we each see them – so the decision must ultimately rest with the taste of individual readers and gamers.
Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:The first point is actually worse, not better. While there is nothing stopping them from making alternative universes, and they're free to do it, it does mean that their content cannot all be taken in with the general 40k storyline. This is problematic for readers who want to be able to imagine everyone's creations together in the 40k universe without having to create mental partitions.
Well, considering that even Black Library operates this way ...
I think you should simply establish a sort of "minimum level of compliance". Black Library publishes many, many books with conflicting information. But at the same time they reject stories that are, how to put it .. "too far out".
Here's something from Gav Thorpe's blog, maybe it helps:
Spoiler:
For the most part these discussions revolved around extrapolations by the authors, extending areas of the backgrounds into subjects that were not relevant to the material needed for tabletop wargames – ‘Does this sound right?’ or ‘Is this how it would work?’. It was rare that we would be passed anything that was so hideously off-the-mark that the story or novel was completely verboten (“we’ve had this story about squats…”). Far from being the black jackboot of authoritarianism, I like to think that we provided possible solutions to problems that cropped up. Sometimes an author or an editor might have a situation they need resolved and would ask for background-friendly suggestions. For instance, an author might want orks invading a moon, but was not sure how the greenies would operate on an airless world. Rather than say that would never happen, we would have a think about it and provided some viable answers (probably something with mobile forcefields in this case…).
That was the day job.
The ability of an author to write within an established setting isn’t about knowing every single detail of the background (though targeted research is always good), it is about understanding the style and ethos of that universe. With a grounding in the principles of that world, an author can extend the logic (or lack) to cover places, people and situations not explicitly detailed in the source material. That’s sort of the point of tie-in fiction; to expand on what is already published, not simply package it up in a slightly different form.
[...]
Often folks ask if Black Library books are ‘canon’. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. There are certainly established facts – the current Emperor is Karl-Franz, the Blood Angels have red armour, Commissar Yarrick defended Hades Hive during the Second Armageddon War. However, to suggest that anything else is non-canon is a disservice to the players and authors who participate in this world. To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.
Whether a particular author’s take on the world matches up with an individual gamer’s or readers is another matter. The fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete.
In this regard it is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.
The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books. And beside, there simply isn’t enough room in those gaming books to include everything from the hundreds of novels – good, bad or indifferent as we each see them – so the decision must ultimately rest with the taste of individual readers and gamers.
Thank you for raising that point. I'm aware that Black Library publishes books that have conflicting content. That is why I feel that writers should have a good amount of room to write what they want. I wouldn't pick at details of inconsistency with something minor. I'd only raise an issue with something major; likely something that other people would complain about.
We think that people should generally be free to write what they want to the maximum extent possible.
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
I've seen that. It's at Wikia, and the skin is nearly unusable and the ads are like Tyrannids; it is the grimdarkness of the 41st millennium and there is only advertising.
And another serious problem with their wiki:
They also admit that they aren't writing in the 40k universe:
"We also write our own Warhammer 40k alternate timeline" - http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/%22Defiance%22_Timeline_(DAT)
If I wanted to write an "alternate 40k universe," I'd make Sascha Krieger the emperor and gak, the Stardust Empire might even make it in too!
Their author template for their articles (their version of our Template:Createdby) is called "property" which is bad for several reasons. It could give the impression that the IP of the article is owned by that user. It could also send the message to users that they shouldn't allow other users to edit their articles; manners says users should ask first, but designating wiki articles as "property" of a user is really against the spirit of the wikis.
They have several alternate time lines, not one single one.
No, the property template helps against plagiarism.
They need ads to keep the wiki running.
The first point is actually worse, not better. While there is nothing stopping them from making alternative universes, and they're free to do it, it does mean that their content cannot all be taken in with the general 40k storyline. This is problematic for readers who want to be able to imagine everyone's creations together in the 40k universe without having to create mental partitions. Plus, under a multiple 40k universe view, there's no reason to moderate content when someone writes something like the Stardust Empire.
I don't really see the issue against plagiarism. It's un-wiki like to have one user write an article and then have a prohibition on allowing anyone use content from it; it's not communal, as wikis are supposed to be. For writing wikis though, a user who draws heavily on another user's work does have a moral responsibility to give credit to the previous writer. I also find it really annoying when people get anal about the copyright they probably don't actually have on something that is itself a copyright infringement. TBH, they should be excited that people want to use their work, which is a major reason why fanfiction is allowed by copyright owners in the first place. Also, people who are that worried about people copying their derivative works shouldn't be posting them on the internet, since it's owned by GW, not them. Technically, GW could publish everything on a fanfiction website without credit or payment because it's their IP.
The wiki doesn't need to have that many ads to stay up. Computer storage space is extremely cheap, and text uses hardly any space. Also, Wikia used to have very few ads, then they created a skin specifically to display ads so they could make more profit.
I'm not trying to debunk them as a fanfiction website, only pointing out that they have a different purpose than we do.
You have no idea how the alternate time lines on the wiki work, so stop being foolish and start reading the rules, the user who made the stardust article would have had his articles deleted, instead of a silly argument where you couldn't take control and let him keep the article up. They would have removed it realising it wasn't going to be debatable.
You don't see an issue with stealing work? It's not copyright, it's annoyance that someone would take their work without permission. Yes GW could, but I doubt they would.
Secondly, the adds aren't controlled by the wiki users, they are controlled by wiki. It costs money to host the servers, and they use adds to pay for them, don't like it? Download add blocker, it's simple.
No, they don't. They have the exact same purpose.
I'm not attacking it, I'm just saying that I just found it to be something I didn't think was good. They're free to do things how they want; it doesn't bother me.
On the plagiarism issue, I believe that copying someone else's work word for word or something like that would be a problem, and anyone who discovers that has a rightful complaint. However, using someone else's characters or setting on a wiki (and within the same wiki or group of wikis) which is meant to be collaborative should be acceptable. If the user writes about the characters in a way that conflicts with the story as established by the original author, then the admins can step in for that. If GW allows players to use their setting, then players shouldn't be anal about other people using their setting; it's a sign of success and indicates to readers that they've done a good job.
I'm aware that the ads aren't controlled by the wiki; that has been a problem for a lot of users at Wikia. Wikia still does not need to put that many ads on their wikis. They got along for a long time without that many, and there's no way it costs that much. The skin that Wikia requires is also really goofy and hard to navigate; it makes the wiki look like a blog.
I'm not saying that wiki is bad; they can do things how they want.
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
I've seen that. It's at Wikia, and the skin is nearly unusable and the ads are like Tyrannids; it is the grimdarkness of the 41st millennium and there is only advertising.
And another serious problem with their wiki:
They also admit that they aren't writing in the 40k universe:
"We also write our own Warhammer 40k alternate timeline" - http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/%22Defiance%22_Timeline_(DAT)
If I wanted to write an "alternate 40k universe," I'd make Sascha Krieger the emperor and gak, the Stardust Empire might even make it in too!
Their author template for their articles (their version of our Template:Createdby) is called "property" which is bad for several reasons. It could give the impression that the IP of the article is owned by that user. It could also send the message to users that they shouldn't allow other users to edit their articles; manners says users should ask first, but designating wiki articles as "property" of a user is really against the spirit of the wikis.
They have several alternate time lines, not one single one.
No, the property template helps against plagiarism.
They need ads to keep the wiki running.
The first point is actually worse, not better. While there is nothing stopping them from making alternative universes, and they're free to do it, it does mean that their content cannot all be taken in with the general 40k storyline. This is problematic for readers who want to be able to imagine everyone's creations together in the 40k universe without having to create mental partitions. Plus, under a multiple 40k universe view, there's no reason to moderate content when someone writes something like the Stardust Empire.
I don't really see the issue against plagiarism. It's un-wiki like to have one user write an article and then have a prohibition on allowing anyone use content from it; it's not communal, as wikis are supposed to be. For writing wikis though, a user who draws heavily on another user's work does have a moral responsibility to give credit to the previous writer. I also find it really annoying when people get anal about the copyright they probably don't actually have on something that is itself a copyright infringement. TBH, they should be excited that people want to use their work, which is a major reason why fanfiction is allowed by copyright owners in the first place. Also, people who are that worried about people copying their derivative works shouldn't be posting them on the internet, since it's owned by GW, not them. Technically, GW could publish everything on a fanfiction website without credit or payment because it's their IP.
The wiki doesn't need to have that many ads to stay up. Computer storage space is extremely cheap, and text uses hardly any space. Also, Wikia used to have very few ads, then they created a skin specifically to display ads so they could make more profit.
I'm not trying to debunk them as a fanfiction website, only pointing out that they have a different purpose than we do.
You have no idea how the alternate time lines on the wiki work, so stop being foolish and start reading the rules, the user who made the stardust article would have had his articles deleted, instead of a silly argument where you couldn't take control and let him keep the article up. They would have removed it realising it wasn't going to be debatable.
You don't see an issue with stealing work? It's not copyright, it's annoyance that someone would take their work without permission. Yes GW could, but I doubt they would.
Secondly, the adds aren't controlled by the wiki users, they are controlled by wiki. It costs money to host the servers, and they use adds to pay for them, don't like it? Download add blocker, it's simple.
No, they don't. They have the exact same purpose.
I'm not attacking it, I'm just saying that I just found it to be something I didn't think was good. They're free to do things how they want; it doesn't bother me.
On the plagiarism issue, I believe that copying someone else's work word for word or something like that would be a problem, and anyone who discovers that has a rightful complaint. However, using someone else's characters or setting on a wiki (and within the same wiki or group of wikis) which is meant to be collaborative should be acceptable. If the user writes about the characters in a way that conflicts with the story as established by the original author, then the admins can step in for that. If GW allows players to use their setting, then players shouldn't be anal about other people using their setting; it's a sign of success and indicates to readers that they've done a good job.
I'm aware that the ads aren't controlled by the wiki; that has been a problem for a lot of users at Wikia. Wikia still does not need to put that many ads on their wikis. They got along for a long time without that many, and there's no way it costs that much. The skin that Wikia requires is also really goofy and hard to navigate; it makes the wiki look like a blog.
I'm not saying that wiki is bad; they can do things how they want.
First, that's what I've been saying, "they have no right to take them to take them with out permission."
Secondly, just download Google Chrome, or pay for your own website, one of two options.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
2012/10/26 23:07:45
Subject: Thoughts on the direction I should go with the 40k fanfiction wiki
I've seen that. It's at Wikia, and the skin is nearly unusable and the ads are like Tyrannids; it is the grimdarkness of the 41st millennium and there is only advertising.
And another serious problem with their wiki:
They also admit that they aren't writing in the 40k universe:
"We also write our own Warhammer 40k alternate timeline" - http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/%22Defiance%22_Timeline_(DAT)
If I wanted to write an "alternate 40k universe," I'd make Sascha Krieger the emperor and gak, the Stardust Empire might even make it in too!
Their author template for their articles (their version of our Template:Createdby) is called "property" which is bad for several reasons. It could give the impression that the IP of the article is owned by that user. It could also send the message to users that they shouldn't allow other users to edit their articles; manners says users should ask first, but designating wiki articles as "property" of a user is really against the spirit of the wikis.
They have several alternate time lines, not one single one.
No, the property template helps against plagiarism.
They need ads to keep the wiki running.
The first point is actually worse, not better. While there is nothing stopping them from making alternative universes, and they're free to do it, it does mean that their content cannot all be taken in with the general 40k storyline. This is problematic for readers who want to be able to imagine everyone's creations together in the 40k universe without having to create mental partitions. Plus, under a multiple 40k universe view, there's no reason to moderate content when someone writes something like the Stardust Empire.
I don't really see the issue against plagiarism. It's un-wiki like to have one user write an article and then have a prohibition on allowing anyone use content from it; it's not communal, as wikis are supposed to be. For writing wikis though, a user who draws heavily on another user's work does have a moral responsibility to give credit to the previous writer. I also find it really annoying when people get anal about the copyright they probably don't actually have on something that is itself a copyright infringement. TBH, they should be excited that people want to use their work, which is a major reason why fanfiction is allowed by copyright owners in the first place. Also, people who are that worried about people copying their derivative works shouldn't be posting them on the internet, since it's owned by GW, not them. Technically, GW could publish everything on a fanfiction website without credit or payment because it's their IP.
The wiki doesn't need to have that many ads to stay up. Computer storage space is extremely cheap, and text uses hardly any space. Also, Wikia used to have very few ads, then they created a skin specifically to display ads so they could make more profit.
I'm not trying to debunk them as a fanfiction website, only pointing out that they have a different purpose than we do.
You have no idea how the alternate time lines on the wiki work, so stop being foolish and start reading the rules, the user who made the stardust article would have had his articles deleted, instead of a silly argument where you couldn't take control and let him keep the article up. They would have removed it realising it wasn't going to be debatable.
You don't see an issue with stealing work? It's not copyright, it's annoyance that someone would take their work without permission. Yes GW could, but I doubt they would.
Secondly, the adds aren't controlled by the wiki users, they are controlled by wiki. It costs money to host the servers, and they use adds to pay for them, don't like it? Download add blocker, it's simple.
No, they don't. They have the exact same purpose.
I'm not attacking it, I'm just saying that I just found it to be something I didn't think was good. They're free to do things how they want; it doesn't bother me.
On the plagiarism issue, I believe that copying someone else's work word for word or something like that would be a problem, and anyone who discovers that has a rightful complaint. However, using someone else's characters or setting on a wiki (and within the same wiki or group of wikis) which is meant to be collaborative should be acceptable. If the user writes about the characters in a way that conflicts with the story as established by the original author, then the admins can step in for that. If GW allows players to use their setting, then players shouldn't be anal about other people using their setting; it's a sign of success and indicates to readers that they've done a good job.
I'm aware that the ads aren't controlled by the wiki; that has been a problem for a lot of users at Wikia. Wikia still does not need to put that many ads on their wikis. They got along for a long time without that many, and there's no way it costs that much. The skin that Wikia requires is also really goofy and hard to navigate; it makes the wiki look like a blog.
I'm not saying that wiki is bad; they can do things how they want.
First, that's what I've been saying, "they have no right to take them to take them with out permission."
Secondly, just download Google Chrome, or pay for your own website, one of two options.
I agree that people shouldn't copy stuff inter-website word for word, but characters and setting within the same wiki or wiki farm is reasonable. Attribution is also a good idea. Putting "property" on something that doesn't even belong to the author is too far. It's also expressly forbidden by the Games Workshop IP unofficial use policy.
Games Workshop wrote:
any work you create using our intellectual property is not "owned" by you. It is called a "derivative work" and those parts based upon our IP do not give rise to their own copyright.
Having a template called "property" that identifies a user as the "owner" of an article is a clear violation of that.
That wiki also violates the name and domain name policy.
Games Workshop wrote:
WHAT YOU CANNOT DO WITH GAMES WORKSHOP'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
-Use our trademarks in respect of your domain name.
Please don't use one of our trademarks to directly identify your web sit (e.g., "The Space Hulk Home Page"). This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.
That wiki uses the name Warhammer Fanon Wiki and the domain warhammer40kfanon.
We have made our own website. This discussion has been about what people would be interested in seeing from it.
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
One of the things I'm thinking about is to avoid being too directly involved at the beginning of fanfiction. Things like Space Marine Chapters with over 1,000 marines might be permissible, but only occasionally and to writers who can pull it off and make a good story from it, not just to make an awesome army. We wouldn't require approval in advance, but we would review it afterward and see if any changes should be made. My view is to generally stay hands off if at all possible. Intervention should only be to stop things like tons of mary sues from running around the site.
What do you think about the review process of giving articles that are very well done a special status?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/28 14:38:23
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
and can only wish you the best.
