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Check it, I play Elysian Aircav (Oh no! What a TFG!). So naturally, I don't have too much trouble with most games I play. That said, I still like to optimize my gameplay and understand how to best counter my opponent's efforts to beat me. I think it calls for a thread to be made, one where I can do just that; figure out, not how to table my opponent, but how to minimize my losses WHILE I table them.

Not too often is the Aircav community represented, mostly because so often players burst into nerdrage when they even hear the subject whispered. That's about to change. I consider it a valid playstyle for the game, and I know there are folks out there that think the same; I want to hear from them. I'm really the only flyerspam player I know, and though I've seen them in batreps and at tourneys, I've never had a chance to speak with any, so I've got some questions.


How many flyers do you run, generally? Just one or two? Eleven?


How much emphasis does your list have on the flyers? Is your list built around their success, or are they merely a support element?


Lets see your list. How has it been performing for you?


Any units/comps giving your flyers trouble? Lets hear about them, and from others how they'd deal with them.


That's basically it, ladies and gentlemen. I just think a thread is in order where we can discuss one of the newer additions to our game, and how to best use them. I'd prefer if posters refrain from the classic "Flyers are OP/TFG/Not Fun" stuff; sure, your opinion is cool, but that tends to lead to thread derailing. But, you know, if one of you want to discuss a valid, interesting way you've come up with countering the flyer meta, I/we would love to hear it. Stuff like that is mutually beneficial; it'll help players learn to counter flyers, and help flyer-players learn what they need to adapt to.

Cheers,
-TheCaptain, aka "Daddy"

 TheCaptain wrote:
How many flyers do you run, generally? Just one or two? Eleven?

2-3 in a 1500 point game, Thunderbolts or Vultures (or a Marauder Destroyer if my opponent is in a generous mood). In 5th that would have been 6-7 with Vendettas for all the troops but 6th's reserve rules killed that plan.

(Dear FW: please give the Elysians an equivalent to the drop pod assault rule so they can run all-flyer lists again.)

How much emphasis does your list have on the flyers? Is your list built around their success, or are they merely a support element?

Support element. They have an important place as mobile firepower and AA but 6th requires a strong ground presence to avoid the auto-loss.

 Peregrine wrote:

(Dear FW: please give the Elysians an equivalent to the drop pod assault rule so they can run all-flyer lists again.)

This x1000

Two things.

One; how do you like the MarauderDest. and Thunderbolt?

Two; regarding the auto-loss situation, I find that as long as I can survive turn one (which rarely is anything significant anyways) I can reliably get at least a couple birds in the air turn two, and by then it's game over.

 TheCaptain wrote:
One; how do you like the MarauderDest. and Thunderbolt?

The Thunderbolt is so far much better at looking cool than winning games. It's better at killing flyers than a Vendetta, but the higher price is kind of painful, and when it doesn't get out of reserve ASAP I definitely feel the absence of ~200 points in a smaller game. However, once FW gets around to releasing a FAQ that lets it drop its full load of bombs in a single turn (yay I have 6x bombs and less than six turns to drop them) like they've promised, and hopefully fix the problem where shooting your ordnance hellstrike missiles is worse than not shooting them, I think it will be good enough to earn its place.

The Destroyer is still under construction, though it has a permanent home in every game where I'm allowed to use it. Sure, it's 500 points, but it's worth it to deliver that kind of firepower anywhere on the table.

Two; regarding the auto-loss situation, I find that as long as I can survive turn one (which rarely is anything significant anyways) I can reliably get at least a couple birds in the air turn two, and by then it's game over.

IMO it's just annoying to have a significant chunk of points sitting on the table and doing nothing but surviving until the flyers arrive. I feel a lot better about having a legitimate on-table force so that investment is doing something, even if it means cutting the flyer count to make it work.

I'm assuming this thread is for all codexes with fliers, not simply elysians.

As a Necron player, I run 4 Fliers. 2 Night Scythes and 2 Doom Scythes. That being said, I don't see my Fliers as being essential to my list - they fill support roles. My Doom Scythes are my primary anti-tank/anti-MC units after the changes to the CCB. My Night Scythes are primarily my delivery mechanism for my Deathmarks, but that Twin-Linked Tesla Destructor is still capable of doing some damage. I use an ADL with Comms Relay to ensure my fliers are coming in turn 3 at the latest, or to postpone them if I really need them to come in later. I've got enough boots on the ground (4x5 man Warrior squads, 2x6 man Wraiths, and 2xCCB Overlord) that tabling me turn one is practically impossible, ensuring I will last long enough to lose under my own steam . This is all at 2k, for those interested.

For you IG guys, how's your experience with the valkyrie been? What I need more of are templates and a way to get elite infantry units behind the enemy's lines. As a result, the Valkyrie with it's multiple rocket pods seem like a much better buy for my army than vendettas.

To be honest, I'm really only looking at the flyer as a way to get vet squads into the enemy deployment quickly (as I dislike chimeras and there's no other way to deepstrike vets) I was thinking of taking a x3 meltavet squad with demolitions and shotguns and dropping 2 or 3 of those in behind enemy lines with grav chute insertion. If they grav chute in though, do they have to snap fire? Because that would put a major hurt on how I'm wanting to run them.

Also, what kinds of units do you typically put in your vendettas/valkyries? I always have at least one platoon as well so I can add in pretty much any IG infantry unit you could put in a vendetta fairly easily.

Can't Vendetta's carry troops too?

Also, the Stormtalon is mediocre / bad compared to other flyers. Vendettas are about the same price, have AV12, and can run 3 Twin Linked Lascannons.

Crazyterran wrote:
Can't Vendetta's carry troops too?

Also, the Stormtalon is mediocre / bad compared to other flyers. Vendettas are about the same price, have AV12, and can run 3 Twin Linked Lascannons.

Yes but they don't contribute to an alpha strike and my list already has roughly 15 lascannons behind an aegis defence line. I don't need a vendetta. I need templates, and an agressive, mobile unit. Hence, the valkyrie appeals more to what I want to do.

if im playing guard i never leave home without my 2 vendettas ive ran a dakkajet and its rather good

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For you IG guys, how's your experience with the valkyrie been?

Disappointing. It just doesn't have the firepower of the Vendetta (especially now that skyfire is so important), and anti-infantry is best done elsewhere in the codex, either tanks (Griffon anyone?) or the punisher cannon Vulture.

And of course the punisher cannon Vulture is probably the MVP in my lists. It was awesome in 5th, and even more awesome now that it's a true flyer AND got vector dancer and strafing run. It massacres light infantry, blows away AV 10/11 flyers in a single shooting phase, and keeps shooting turn after turn. And of course it's just fun to throw a giant pile of dice at something and watch it disappear.

I've got an aircav Guard detachment that I use as allies for my Grey Knights in an attempt to recreate a list I briefly used under the old Grey Knight Codex; they're kind of fun, but it makes an already small model-count list even smaller.

My favorite flyer is probably either the Vendetta or the Razorwing; both are pretty capable at downing vehicles in the air or on the ground, and the Razorwing can also do a silly, silly amount of damage to infantry units, both at a reasonable price.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For you IG guys, how's your experience with the valkyrie been? What I need more of are templates and a way to get elite infantry units behind the enemy's lines. As a result, the Valkyrie with it's multiple rocket pods seem like a much better buy for my army than vendettas.

To be honest, I'm really only looking at the flyer as a way to get vet squads into the enemy deployment quickly (as I dislike chimeras and there's no other way to deepstrike vets) I was thinking of taking a x3 meltavet squad with demolitions and shotguns and dropping 2 or 3 of those in behind enemy lines with grav chute insertion. If they grav chute in though, do they have to snap fire? Because that would put a major hurt on how I'm wanting to run them.

There's sortof two sides to this. You wanna put Meltavets into the backfield with flyers, sure. That's what I do for anti-tank. It's mostly up to your list whether you use a Vendetta or Valk. If you've got mountains of lascannons and anti-Medium Armor then Put them in Valks. Valkyries are good at the whole "insertion" thing because they have shorter range weapons anyways, and can clear a DZ of infantry a little better with their rockets. However, Vendettas do rock one of the best flyer armaments in the game, also pairing well with Melta squad weaponry.

What I would suggest is Two Vendettas with Meltavets (I'd forgo the demolitions thing unless you're set on it.) and a Valkyrie with a Flamer squad + Demolitions. The flamer squad deep striking is, truly, something everyone should use. Like Ailaros uses his Stormies, they can be dropped right onto an objective, along with flaming/demo-ing anyone contesting it. And they can score.

Also, what kinds of units do you typically put in your vendettas/valkyries? I always have at least one platoon as well so I can add in pretty much any IG infantry unit you could put in a vendetta fairly easily.

Vendettas get my anti-tank units so they can fly at their armor column, shooting, and when they pass over it and can't shoot, they drop meltavets behind it.

Valks get plasmavets. Valk deals with light infantry, plops down Plasma to kill elite infantry and characters.

 TheCaptain wrote:


What I would suggest is Two Vendettas with Meltavets (I'd forgo the demolitions thing unless you're set on it.) and a Valkyrie with a Flamer squad + Demolitions

I like to do the exact opposite. Throw my flamers/demo vets in a vendetta and melta-vets in a valk. I find that I tend to fly over the inappropriate targets for the vendetta (or valk) in order to get to the main target. This makes it perfect to dump the vets out where I've been.

I do think that the Valk with MRP would really benefit from vector dancer (so would every flier, but with weapons >24" the problem is mitigated somewhat) to be a really good choice. I've used it a couple of times and it pulls its weight even against MEQ if you don't scatter too much. The Vulture is better but if I were to start using forge world I doubt I could continue the hobby and feed myself.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


What I would suggest is Two Vendettas with Meltavets (I'd forgo the demolitions thing unless you're set on it.) and a Valkyrie with a Flamer squad + Demolitions

I like to do the exact opposite. Throw my flamers/demo vets in a vendetta and melta-vets in a valk. I find that I tend to fly over the inappropriate targets for the vendetta (or valk) in order to get to the main target. This makes it perfect to dump the vets out where I've been.

True, it works either way, really. It's just a matter of inverting your tactics if you choose the other way.

The Vulture is better but if I were to start using forge world I doubt I could continue the hobby and feed myself.

Eh, even if you only buy one thing ever from FW, it should be a Vulture with punishers.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Eh, even if you only buy one thing ever from FW, it should be a Vulture with punishers.

I will not be tempted I will not be tempted oh feth it my paycheck is next week.

I've only run with a single Vendetta so far, although I think I may build a second if I have the lascannon bits laying around to do the conversion. I'll generally outflank the thing so that I can get rear armor on something, and with only the single flier it tends to be a suicide run. Still, I'm usually able to wreck an annoying piece of armor and that's what I take it for. Everything after that is gravy. I haven't really had stunning successes with dropping melta or flamer squads out of the thing to the point I'm thinking of going back to using it as a gunship and ignoring the transport capacity.

One thing I'm wondering, since this thread will presumably be largely pro-flier people, is what people with heavier investments in fliers feel about IA: Aeronautica? It looks like it patches the current lack of fliers/anti-air that a lot of armies have, but I haven't really played with any of the units. Does it make for more balanced games, or does it just turn into AA-spam?

I own one stormeagle and one vendetta. I haven't built an allies list around them yet, but I think that hey could be deadly in combo with he vendetta running interference for my stormeagle which will have something scary inside it.

I mulled over Valkyrie or Vendetta for a while and even though i have a ton of lascannons in my army I just felt that you can't go wrong with 3 twin linked ones for their price. I plan on using the vendetta primarily as an anti flyer flyer and in a tank hunting role. The storm eagle is versatile enough as is although has some nice options.

 Lansirill wrote:
I've only run with a single Vendetta so far, although I think I may build a second if I have the lascannon bits laying around to do the conversion. I'll generally outflank the thing so that I can get rear armor on something, and with only the single flier it tends to be a suicide run. Still, I'm usually able to wreck an annoying piece of armor and that's what I take it for. Everything after that is gravy. I haven't really had stunning successes with dropping melta or flamer squads out of the thing to the point I'm thinking of going back to using it as a gunship and ignoring the transport capacity.

If you're having trouble keeping the flyer alive long enough to drop cargo, it's almost certainly because it's your only one, so it's taking all the fire. If you even take two, it forces your opponent to either split fire, or focus one down at a time, marvelously increasing survivability. One flyer is an easy target, two enters the realm of "target saturation." If you can't find the points or the dough for another flyer, maybe a flamer SWS in the vendetta. Dirt cheap, and allows you to have SOMETHING to throw at the enemy if you're forced to fly into a position where you can't shoot at them, while not taking up so many points that it would be a heavy loss if the 'detta goes down.

One thing I'm wondering, since this thread will presumably be largely pro-flier people, is what people with heavier investments in fliers feel about IA: Aeronautica? It looks like it patches the current lack of fliers/anti-air that a lot of armies have, but I haven't really played with any of the units. Does it make for more balanced games, or does it just turn into AA-spam?

IA:A really does wonders for balancing the game with the new flyer meta. It gives every army (I think) options for either more flyers (all quite balanced, save for a few underpowered options), or some remarkably effective, fair anti-air options.

The sabre defense platform shines in this book, and is definitely something worth checking out if anyone's army is struggling with AA

I am looking at 6 in my necrons list. I am a little worried about hoards. The high str is great , but they don't have the number of shoots to take out fearless hoards. I don't have an overlord so dispair teks are out I could shift some points around for a 2nd doom scythe, but I don't know if that is the answer.

How are people with a lot of flyers dealing with hoards?

Ok awesome thanks for the advice captain. Only question I've got left is if units that use grav chute insertion have to snapfire, as their transport is moving over 12". I don't think they do, but it'd be nice to know.

Also, do shotguns work better for the deepstrikers, or are lasguns more effective? I was wanting to convert some cool shotgun vets and would like to know if this would be a waste of time or not. I know you cant assault after deepstriking, but it could be handy as it'd allow you to charge walkers and MC's and still fire the shotguns in hopes to ding another wound off. Any squad with demolitions especially would be nice to have these on as they're all packing meltabombs as well, which would seriously ruin any MC's day.

deviant cadaver wrote:
I am looking at 6 in my necrons list. I am a little worried about hoards. The high str is great , but they don't have the number of shoots to take out fearless hoards. I don't have an overlord so dispair teks are out I could shift some points around for a 2nd doom scythe, but I don't know if that is the answer.

How are people with a lot of flyers dealing with hoards?

The answer is to balance your list. Maybe try 3 flyers and something that can handle hoards.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Ok awesome thanks for the advice captain. Only question I've got left is if units that use grav chute insertion have to snapfire, as their transport is moving over 12". I don't think they do, but it'd be nice to know.

Also, do shotguns work better for the deepstrikers, or are lasguns more effective? I was wanting to convert some cool shotgun vets and would like to know if this would be a waste of time or not. I know you cant assault after deepstriking, but it could be handy as it'd allow you to charge walkers and MC's and still fire the shotguns in hopes to ding another wound off. Any squad with demolitions especially would be nice to have these on as they're all packing meltabombs as well, which would seriously ruin any MC's day.

For your first question, hopefully you're aware that Grav-Chute insertion has been changed. It is now "If your transport has moved more than 6", passengers may still disembark, but may do so as follows. So the insertion is now in the movement phase again, and is executed at any speed past 6".

Now, as far as I know, the only rule referring to shooting after disembarkation is on page 79 of the little rulebook, stating "After disembarking, models can shoot, counting as having moved, or choose to run in their subsequent shooting phase..." So, unless there's something that trumps this, it seems that they can fire as normal after inserting. (Hah, innuendo and such.)

For the shotgun thing, that really depends on how you use them. I tend to drop my guys in, wipe out a squad, and use them in subsequent turns to hole up on an objective; if you're using them as a more aggressive force, I can see shotguns being beneficial, though that hinges on you charging with them, which I've traditionally strayed away from as a guard player.

Hope that helped a bit,
-Cap

Basically it's just an excuse to make badass looking shotgun vets. I'll probably be wiping a unit and then holding the objective as well, but I just wanted the extra flexibility if I wasn't able to kill the objective holder and had to charge him off of it next turn.

Thanks!

I have a Airmobile /Air assault element with my Tau forces, IG aux in Tau-ed up Valks and supported by a pair of Barracudas, and pair of Tigershark AX-1-0 , usually trot them out in some of the bigger games, toss in afew groups of Remoras and it makes for a nice combo.

Actually got a 1 turn kill on a warhound with the AX-1-0s made me happy.

hopefully the Tau will get some kinda air transport like the Valk either from GW or FW when they update them, would fit quite well with the playstyle.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
hopefully the Tau will get some kinda air transport like the Valk either from GW or FW when they update them, would fit quite well with the playstyle.

Unless something has changed, that's the word for the next codex Tau gets. Rumor is it will be similar to the Orca, but smaller and possibly lightly armed.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
hopefully the Tau will get some kinda air transport like the Valk either from GW or FW when they update them, would fit quite well with the playstyle.

Unless something has changed, that's the word for the next codex Tau gets. Rumor is it will be similar to the Orca, but smaller and possibly lightly armed.

well smaller than the orca I can except, but not more lightly armed..the orca has pathetic firepower, especially for a race that prides itself of weaponry and tech, but heres hopeing, I can always field my allies anyway.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:


The answer is to balance your list. Maybe try 3 flyers and something that can handle hoards.

Two kinds of list are the balanced list that can deal with anything and that kinda that throws as much of one type of threat as they can and overwhelms. Both have advantages and disadvantages. 1/4 of my army is flyers, a strong suit of crons, If I was really trying to make the later type of list I could make it 4/5. I have wraiths to tar pit flyers make great anti-flyers believe it or not and deathmarks for death stars.

I know the internet says the best way to beat flyers is hoards and even if it was not I'd still devote some of my list to having a way to deal with them. The rest of the army is not bad at it , but not specialized either. I was hoping for an option other then despair teks , because I'm not running an overlord. The answer take less flyers is not really helpful as I already have point free I am just not sure what to take with them. I understand if you don't know the cron codex , but a something like , what do they have with a high rate of fire , would have come off as less abrasive.

Could I get some help guys? I'm stumped. Troops seem like the next best thing , but with out an expensive delivery system I can't see getting them where I need them.

deviant cadaver wrote:


Could I get some help guys? I'm stumped. Troops seem like the next best thing , but with out an expensive delivery system I can't see getting them where I need them.

Anywhere you can fit in some tesla? (That's good against hordes, right?)

Maybe you can throw in a couple Annihilation barges? Those will armor-saturate well with your flyers, whereas if you put troops on the ground, they'd just take all the fire that can't hurt your vehicles.

I usually subscribe to the idea "Try to give your enemy one type of thing to shoot at. That way, they will either not have enough anti-whatever it is, or at the very least, all his other anti-XYandZ will go to waste, because you don't have any (or much) X, Y, and Z for him to use it on."

FMC's ^^ Fateweaver and friends in a circle of flying death.
So far testing out the list vs other tourney lists it has gone 4-1, play error/rules error cost me a game vs an IG player. Essentially him not snapfiring his Tanks after using the Ordnance.


As far as 40k fliers go though damn the Vendettas on top. Cheap as dirt, high armor for a flyer. Arguably the best weapon load out

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I own one stormeagle and one vendetta. I haven't built an allies list around them yet, but I think that hey could be deadly in combo with he vendetta running interference for my stormeagle which will have something scary inside it.

I mulled over Valkyrie or Vendetta for a while and even though i have a ton of lascannons in my army I just felt that you can't go wrong with 3 twin linked ones for their price. I plan on using the vendetta primarily as an anti flyer flyer and in a tank hunting role. The storm eagle is versatile enough as is although has some nice options.

Have you used the Storm Eagle at all yet? If so, how did it do? what did you put in it? I play CSM and am currently thinking of adding a Chaos Storm eagle with either Kharn and 19 Berzerkers or Lord Zhufor and 9 Terminators.