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So as we have all by this point seen the new Chaos codex I am sure a number of people have been a little underwhelmed by the Thousand Sons entry. A slight point reduction from last edition but now the sorcerer has to take a Tzeench power, which might not be very good.
I had some ideas that might make them more fun and a bit more characterful

First, add preferred enemy Space Wolves.
The space wolves came and destroyed prospero taking glee in killing as many sorcerers as they could. Since then the Tsons have been trying to avenge themselves for 10,000 years attacking Fenris numerous times. It would seem to me that their preferred enemy is space wolves....

Next allow them to take a heavy bolter for +10 points(1 per 10) and a flamer for 5 points(1 per 10) These would be seperate counters, so a 10 man squad could have 1 flamer and 1 heavy bolter. Inferno Bolts would affect the Heavy bolter making it Str5 AP3 Heavy 3.

While being mindless rubric marines being able to fire a heavy bolter is very similar to firing a regular bolter or bolt pistol and a flamer is even more point and shoot. The still lack the cognitive reasoning to aim a meltagun at a tanks weak points or set a missiles targeting.

Edited because it was moved.

That said about the rules, I'm mixed.

I like the idea of giving them more weapon options. That seems reasonable.

But if they are mindless, as you say, why would they have preferred enemy towards anything? I could see it applying to the Sorcerers, perhaps, but not the squads themselves as they are essentially robots.

Now in the right place - enjoy!

 curran12 wrote:
Edited because it was moved.

That said about the rules, I'm mixed.

I like the idea of giving them more weapon options. That seems reasonable.

But if they are mindless, as you say, why would they have preferred enemy towards anything? I could see it applying to the Sorcerers, perhaps, but not the squads themselves as they are essentially robots.

well give preferred enemy to the sorcerer and by rules it passes to his squad. If you kill the sorcerer then they lose the preferred enemy. Seems fine to me.

If I could by a heavy bolter for my T-Sons I would. Giving them weapon options is a great idea. Not sold on Preferred Enemy Space Wolves. That said, if you simply didn't force the Aspiring Sorcerer to take a discipline of Tzeentch power then they'd be leagues better.

 gpfunk wrote:
If I could by a heavy bolter for my T-Sons I would. Giving them weapon options is a great idea. Not sold on Preferred Enemy Space Wolves. That said, if you simply didn't force the Aspiring Sorcerer to take a discipline of Tzeentch power then they'd be leagues better.

Because Nurgle's Thousand Sons makes so much more sense?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
If I could by a heavy bolter for my T-Sons I would. Giving them weapon options is a great idea. Not sold on Preferred Enemy Space Wolves. That said, if you simply didn't force the Aspiring Sorcerer to take a discipline of Tzeentch power then they'd be leagues better.

Because Nurgle's Thousand Sons makes so much more sense?

No, just able to roll on the awesome Biomancy table or the acceptable Pyromancy table, rather than the terrible Tzeentch table.

Sorry, but I'm not a fan of the Preferred enemy: Space Wolves.

I'm under the impression that the Thousand Sons only look to engage the SW on their own turns, and are not in fact "good" at taking them on in normal situations. Hatred is juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust fine, and literally changes the game (see: 10 GHs vs. 9 TS in melee). Also not a fan of the Heavy Bolter in TS squads, and here's why: Bolters are easier to maintain. The Sorcerer (or serfs if in Ahriman's large ship) would conduct weapon maintenance and regular bolts are easier to come by. Also, why would you need to wound on 3's with AP3 if you could just have Enfeeble? You do have 2+ Sorcerer HQs, right? ; ) You should be able to roll suitable buff/debuffs to make up for heavy weapons.

Great ideas, though (I have never personally thought 'what-if' Tsons could have a Flamer). I think that the only change we need are to our special rules.

I've used this "Only bolters" argument before, but here goes:

In a book, someone shoots a bolter at a space marine near a wall. The impact on the wall actually pushes the space marine forwards and out of cover. Bolters are just fine at Ap5.. Thousand Sons are just fine at Ap3. So our heavy weapons should come from Sorcerers. Perhaps make the sorcerers able to select any Primaris power? Or just roll on things other than Tzeentch. Tsons can't overwatch anyways, as you know, so why pay 5pts for a flamer when the sorcerer can be like "omg, I'm totally gonna take Flame Breath for free".

Another thing.. If you're going for "more" characterful, why the odd unit size requirements and such? 9 is better than 10, in Tzeentch's many eyes

Preferred Enemy Space Wolves used to happen...

I was playing back then, as well.

It's still dumb. Hatred is just fine and Space Wolves shouldn't gain a bonus for fighting Thousand Sons.

From a purely military perspective, chasing the Thousand Sons in the warp is no different than any other mission. Why the preferred enemy?

Besides, can't we all agree that 3x units of long fangs shooting frags at a unit of 9 thousand sons more than makes up for anything else they lack when fighting Thousand Sons..

Space Wolves gained PE against Thousand Sons, and vice versa. They also had the same with Dark Angels. It's called fluff-based rules. At one time, the game eas fun because of little touches like these.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Space Wolves gained PE against Thousand Sons, and vice versa. They also had the same with Dark Angels. It's called fluff-based rules. At one time, the game eas fun because of little touches like these.

PE Dark Angels for wolves? LoL its a rivalry at most, not a bitter hatred. The 1K Sons perhaps, but hatred would be more accurate. PE: Wolves for 1K sons I could buy, they have made a serious effort to constantly raid the fang and generally cause extra havoc for the wolves in the past ten thousand years or so.

 Brometheus wrote:
I was playing back then, as well.

It's still dumb. Hatred is just fine and Space Wolves shouldn't gain a bonus for fighting Thousand Sons.

From a purely military perspective, chasing the Thousand Sons in the warp is no different than any other mission. Why the preferred enemy?

Besides, can't we all agree that 3x units of long fangs shooting frags at a unit of 9 thousand sons more than makes up for anything else they lack when fighting Thousand Sons..

Spacewolves have a distaste for psykers but Tsons no more than warpheads or farseers.
Tsons already have Hatred all SM so I think they need something extra to denote the fact that in the fluff they almost exclusively go after space wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brometheus wrote:
Sorry, but I'm not a fan of the Preferred enemy: Space Wolves.
I'm under the impression that the Thousand Sons only look to engage the SW on their own turns, and are not in fact "good" at taking them on in normal situations. Hatred is juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust fine, and literally changes the game (see: 10 GHs vs. 9 TS in melee). Also not a fan of the Heavy Bolter in TS squads, and here's why: Bolters are easier to maintain. The Sorcerer (or serfs if in Ahriman's large ship) would conduct weapon maintenance and regular bolts are easier to come by. Also, why would you need to wound on 3's with AP3 if you could just have Enfeeble? You do have 2+ Sorcerer HQs, right? ; ) You should be able to roll suitable buff/debuffs to make up for heavy weapons.

Great ideas, though (I have never personally thought 'what-if' Tsons could have a Flamer). I think that the only change we need are to our special rules.

9 Tsons better be able to handle 10GH, 9 Tsons costs 207 points while 10GH is 150. The GH have couterattack and are likely to have more attacks. Hatred on the first round helps but it isnt enough for the Tsons to "hold their own" in combat against a cheaper foe. You could have 9 Tsons vs 14 GH in a points even match. Making it 8 Tsons and the aspiring sorc makes them even more expensive so you could compare to 13 GH and a wolfguard in terminator armor.

As for the easy to maintain, who knows how they maintain suits of complicated armor that are magical. What happens if you have to replace a part? Assuming that the spell that made the rubric marines made their bolters magical they would have affected the heavy bolters in the same way. The heavy bolter is nice as it gives the squad a little bit of range and slightly more firepower even on the move. Tsons use to be special as they could move and still fire 24". now everyone gets that but with a heavy bolter, they would be getting 2 additonal shots as a squad while on the move between 12 and 36"

As for the flamer, the new book seems to be leading Tzeench to a fire theme and I thought it might be nice to have something to handle hordes a little better than they currently do. Tsons are pretty god awful against orks.

with the aspiring sorcerer
8 tsons and the sorc are 219
10 grey hunters are only 150

In combat the sorc has 3 attacks base while the Tsons have 1 attack base
The GH have 2 attacks base and counter attack.
The First round of combat the SW get +1 attack regarless of charging or not. The Tsons get the charge half the time, so they get +.5 attacks.


GH strike with 30 attacks, 15 hit 7.5 wound 2.5 dead tsons
Tsons strike with 15 attacks, with hatred 10 hit. 5 wound. 1.66 dead GH
Sorc gets 3.5 attacks 1.3 dead GH(assuming PS)

pretty good aye? The Tsons are winning!

so now there are 7GH and 5.5 Tsons and the sorc.
7 GH strike 14 attacks 1.2 dead Tsons
5.5 Tsons strike with 5.5 attacks, .45 dead GH
The sorc hits attacks with 3 attacks, .75 dead GH
now we are even and from here on out the GH will do slightly less damage than the Tsons.

But this is a 219 point unit with a character with a power weapon vs a 150 point unit without any special. for 70 points the SW player could have a wolfguard in TDA which would require a force axe to crack and still have points for 2 plasma and a wolf standard, which would wreck the Tsons.
No Prefered enemy wouldnt break Tsons, they might actually be able to take GH in combat but they do cost a lot more.

 Exergy wrote:
with the aspiring sorcerer
8 tsons and the sorc are 219
10 grey hunters are only 150

In combat the sorc has 3 attacks base while the Tsons have 1 attack base
The GH have 2 attacks base and counter attack.
The First round of combat the SW get +1 attack regarless of charging or not. The Tsons get the charge half the time, so they get +.5 attacks.


GH strike with 30 attacks, 15 hit 7.5 wound 2.5 dead tsons
Tsons strike with 15 attacks, with hatred 10 hit. 5 wound. 1.66 dead GH
Sorc gets 3.5 attacks 1.3 dead GH(assuming PS)

pretty good aye? The Tsons are winning!

so now there are 7GH and 5.5 Tsons and the sorc.
7 GH strike 14 attacks 1.2 dead Tsons
5.5 Tsons strike with 5.5 attacks, .45 dead GH
The sorc hits attacks with 3 attacks, .75 dead GH
now we are even and from here on out the GH will do slightly less damage than the Tsons.

But this is a 219 point unit with a character with a power weapon vs a 150 point unit without any special. for 70 points the SW player could have a wolfguard in TDA which would require a force axe to crack and still have points for 2 plasma and a wolf standard, which would wreck the Tsons.
No Prefered enemy wouldnt break Tsons, they might actually be able to take GH in combat but they do cost a lot more.

Why would a TS player allow a squad of GH to change unmolested anyway? Just gun them down. In a firefight, the TS will wittle the GH down before they ever get to HtH. In a straight up fight between the two squads, with advancing movement, and no cover, during the first round, shooting at max range, the TS are going to kill (rounding) 3 GH, with return casualties of 1 from the GH shooting. Second round, TS will be in rapid fire range, and kill 5 more GH (again, rounding), with return casualties of 0. GH charge TS squad, overwatch will kill another GH, leaving only 1 to fight in combat.

Of course, once you throw in cover saves and special weapons (which increases the price of the GH), things could be a bit less lopsided. In general though, after 2 rounds of shooting from the TS (and the psychic attacks from the sorcerer), a single squad of 9 TS should come out well ahead of a ten man squad of GH.

Ah, units in a vacuum...

There won't be a firefight between TS and GH because 15 Frag Missiles are going into the big units of Thousand Sons and "putting them to sleep".

What's your invul? Yeah, go ahead and take 30 armor saves.

Why did the GHs leave their Aegis Defense Line? Why is the Thousand Sons player shooting at GHs when there's probably 60 of them within 24" against a smart SW player who knows only to spam GH and LF? How is the Thousand Sons player doing if the SW player got first turn? :p

No, Thousand Sons in normal games cannot win in firefights against Codex: Long Fangs (basically, who needs GHs)

To continue onward... 2 Wounds. Cooler spells. Done. No more special wargear like heavy/spc weapons.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
with the aspiring sorcerer
8 tsons and the sorc are 219
10 grey hunters are only 150

In combat the sorc has 3 attacks base while the Tsons have 1 attack base
The GH have 2 attacks base and counter attack.
The First round of combat the SW get +1 attack regarless of charging or not. The Tsons get the charge half the time, so they get +.5 attacks.


GH strike with 30 attacks, 15 hit 7.5 wound 2.5 dead tsons
Tsons strike with 15 attacks, with hatred 10 hit. 5 wound. 1.66 dead GH
Sorc gets 3.5 attacks 1.3 dead GH(assuming PS)

pretty good aye? The Tsons are winning!

so now there are 7GH and 5.5 Tsons and the sorc.
7 GH strike 14 attacks 1.2 dead Tsons
5.5 Tsons strike with 5.5 attacks, .45 dead GH
The sorc hits attacks with 3 attacks, .75 dead GH
now we are even and from here on out the GH will do slightly less damage than the Tsons.

But this is a 219 point unit with a character with a power weapon vs a 150 point unit without any special. for 70 points the SW player could have a wolfguard in TDA which would require a force axe to crack and still have points for 2 plasma and a wolf standard, which would wreck the Tsons.
No Prefered enemy wouldnt break Tsons, they might actually be able to take GH in combat but they do cost a lot more.

Why would a TS player allow a squad of GH to change unmolested anyway? Just gun them down. In a firefight, the TS will wittle the GH down before they ever get to HtH. In a straight up fight between the two squads, with advancing movement, and no cover, during the first round, shooting at max range, the TS are going to kill (rounding) 3 GH, with return casualties of 1 from the GH shooting. Second round, TS will be in rapid fire range, and kill 5 more GH (again, rounding), with return casualties of 0. GH charge TS squad, overwatch will kill another GH, leaving only 1 to fight in combat.

Of course, once you throw in cover saves and special weapons (which increases the price of the GH), things could be a bit less lopsided. In general though, after 2 rounds of shooting from the TS (and the psychic attacks from the sorcerer), a single squad of 9 TS should come out well ahead of a ten man squad of GH.

all those AP3 bolters go on the WG in TDA....

I did always wonder why there are ForgeWorld bits for 1k Sons Missile Launchers and yet they haven't been able to take them in ages.

 Brometheus wrote:
Ah, units in a vacuum...

You do realize you just took the SW out of the vacuum but left the TS in one for your example, right?

While I understand that these match-ups never occur in a vacuum, I was just using the example that was given, 10 GH against 8 TS w/1 Sorcerer, to point out that TS were generally not losing that fight.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I did always wonder why there are ForgeWorld bits for 1k Sons Missile Launchers and yet they haven't been able to take them in ages.

Might have something to do with people wanting to make a 1ksons army with havocs, sure they dont get the 1ksons cult rules but at least they look the part.

BUMP!
Sooo after numerous attempts at trying to make interesting Thousand Sons lists i thought of a reasonable adjustment that could help with their biggest problem (being overcosted & having no customisability) plus it's simple enough to be faq'd in. Get rid of the AP3 bolter as stock wargear but keep it as an upragde for any thousand son at an appropriate price & reduce the initial price of the squad by ten points. Khorne Berzerkers get to upgrade to chainaxes for 3pts, Noise Marines get Sonic Blasters for 3pts, Thousand Sons get AP3 bolters for 3pts? It's just so annoying that Thousand Sons are so expensive & can't be customised at all, yet every other cult troop has their respectable options.

Another idea like being able to upgrade the aspiring sorcerers to apprentice's of a certain discipline to provide certain benefits to the squad would be awesome, while still keeping the AP3 bolters off the stock wargear...

Corvidae could provide Infiltrate?

Pyrae could provide the lovely AP3 bolters?

Pavoni could provide... honestly i'm stumped for simple ideas on this one. Restricting these abilities to benefit the whole squad seems kinda limiting in this speciality. Some kind of lightning ability would cool, like an additional shooting attack.. Automatic snap fire lightning shots at close enemy units? or perhaps some kind of lightning overwatch attack? Or perhaps an ability to represent their healing skills, something similar to the crons reanimation protocols, or feel no pain?

Athanaeans could provide shrouded and/or counter attack? or all enemies within a certain distance treat all enemies as having Fear along with a LD debuff?

Raptora could provide something similar to the crons lychguard shields.. all successful save (or is it just invulnerable saves?) deflect the shot away & have a chance to hit enemy units?

The pricing on these upgrades would be tricky, depending on how many models are in the squad to keep it fair. An initial total to cover the stock (4/1) setup, plus additional points for each extra model purchased.
Keep in mind i'm not much of a gamer & these suggestions are probably absolute ludicrous, just wanted to share my thoughts since this codex seems hardly more interesting than the last.

I like the general concept. Maybe give the sorcerer the ability to choose his psyker disicpline and a squad ability according which one he chooses. I.E. pyromancers get soul blaze. Biomancers get Feel No Pain. Divination replaces slow and purposeful with relentless. So on and so forth

Time to start a list of differences between plagues and Tsons, yay.

Plagues have MoN, FNP, grenades, poison ccw and bolt pistol + options. Thats at 24 points a model.

Tsons get MoT + Aura of DG for a 4++, inferno bolts, Veterans of the Long War, Slow and Purposeful. 23 points a model.

Only 1 point difference between a hard as nails all purpose unit with options and a shooty unit that's only particularly good at killing marines and laughing at power weapons.

And then you get the sorceror tax of 35 pts for a force weapon and a bad Tzeentch power on a 1 wound psyker and doesnt get access to the armory.

I'd say drop the model cost to 21 and the sorceror tax to 20 for a total base unit cost of 125. Give the sorceror access to Chaos Rewards and Ranged Weaponry.

Or let the sorceror roll for rulebook powers. And only cut the model cost to 21 for 140 pts overall.

I'd also like to be able to take up to 3 sorcerors per HQ slot, a man can dream.

Men have small dreams, I'd like to upgrade my Chosen to be sorcerers... maybe take a bodyguard/retinue for the HQ as well.

Hmm.

Sorcerer with MoT can take 4-8 Rubric Marines for 20 points each as a retinue maybe (regain Independent Character when they die).

As far as the Thousand Sons squad goes, the ability to upgrade to ML2 would be a godsend. Especially at say, 10-15 points.

Other options I want to see to support Tz:

The ability to upgrade any squad leader with MoT to be a ML1 Sorcerer (especially cultists).

Some kind of infiltrate or disruption ability to represent saboteurs.

 Chris P Bacon wrote:
BUMP!
Sooo after numerous attempts at trying to make interesting Thousand Sons lists i thought of a reasonable adjustment that could help with their biggest problem (being overcosted & having no customisability) plus it's simple enough to be faq'd in. Get rid of the AP3 bolter as stock wargear but keep it as an upragde for any thousand son at an appropriate price & reduce the initial price of the squad by ten points. Khorne Berzerkers get to upgrade to chainaxes for 3pts, Noise Marines get Sonic Blasters for 3pts, Thousand Sons get AP3 bolters for 3pts? It's just so annoying that Thousand Sons are so expensive & can't be customised at all, yet every other cult troop has their respectable options.

Another idea like being able to upgrade the aspiring sorcerers to apprentice's of a certain discipline to provide certain benefits to the squad would be awesome, while still keeping the AP3 bolters off the stock wargear...

Corvidae could provide Infiltrate?

Pyrae could provide the lovely AP3 bolters?

Pavoni could provide... honestly i'm stumped for simple ideas on this one. Restricting these abilities to benefit the whole squad seems kinda limiting in this speciality. Some kind of lightning ability would cool, like an additional shooting attack.. Automatic snap fire lightning shots at close enemy units? or perhaps some kind of lightning overwatch attack? Or perhaps an ability to represent their healing skills, something similar to the crons reanimation protocols, or feel no pain?

Athanaeans could provide shrouded and/or counter attack? or all enemies within a certain distance treat all enemies as having Fear along with a LD debuff?

Raptora could provide something similar to the crons lychguard shields.. all successful save (or is it just invulnerable saves?) deflect the shot away & have a chance to hit enemy units?

The pricing on these upgrades would be tricky, depending on how many models are in the squad to keep it fair. An initial total to cover the stock (4/1) setup, plus additional points for each extra model purchased.
Keep in mind i'm not much of a gamer & these suggestions are probably absolute ludicrous, just wanted to share my thoughts since this codex seems hardly more interesting than the last.

It would be nice to detach Tsons from their AP3 bolters, but 3 points is probably a little light.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tarrasq wrote:
Time to start a list of differences between plagues and Tsons, yay.

Plagues have MoN, FNP, grenades, poison ccw and bolt pistol + options. Thats at 24 points a model.

Tsons get MoT + Aura of DG for a 4++, inferno bolts, Veterans of the Long War, Slow and Purposeful. 23 points a model.

Only 1 point difference between a hard as nails all purpose unit with options and a shooty unit that's only particularly good at killing marines and laughing at power weapons.

And then you get the sorceror tax of 35 pts for a force weapon and a bad Tzeentch power on a 1 wound psyker and doesnt get access to the armory.

I'd say drop the model cost to 21 and the sorceror tax to 20 for a total base unit cost of 125. Give the sorceror access to Chaos Rewards and Ranged Weaponry.

Or let the sorceror roll for rulebook powers. And only cut the model cost to 21 for 140 pts overall.

I'd also like to be able to take up to 3 sorcerors per HQ slot, a man can dream.

even laughing at powerweapons, Tsons are laughable in assault. 21 points is still a little too much for them when you consider the sorc tax.

125 would be fine for the Legion of the Damned Lite squad that GW is trying to make Tsons.

Swapping out SnP for relentless or just letting them overwatch would make them worth their codex value.

Personally I think Rubric Marines are a terrible representation of what Tsons are about. A whole psyker unit would be better.

 Tarrasq wrote:
125 would be fine for the Legion of the Damned Lite squad that GW is trying to make Tsons.

Swapping out SnP for relentless or just letting them overwatch would make them worth their codex value.

Personally I think Rubric Marines are a terrible representation of what Tsons are about. A whole psyker unit would be better.

a unit of sorcs would totally be better. That is what Icon of Tzeench should do, make the unit into a unit with brotherhood of sorcs. Instead you get soul blaze, ooooo.