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Ok so my friends and I are starting an escalation campaign, there are some Necrons, Orks, Eldar and two Marine armies in there, none of which I care about being tau. Ill just take Helios Pattern Suits vs MEQs and Firestorms/Bladestorms vs GEQs, no biggie.

My problem is that 500pt Guard player. Because he is an [REDACTED]-Hole and will no doubt either take a Leman Russ (maybe more than 1 knowing him) or God Forbid a Valkyrie. Lets just assume he wont be a total grot-loving punk and not take a flier but just a Russ or two, where do I go from there in a 500 point list? I don't want to buy a Broadside for my first 500 points just so I can deal with that AV14/13 but I don't trust my luck with missile pods either.

For reference here is the list I'm working off of right now:

HQ -
'El + MT + CiB + MP - 82pts

Elites -
x2 'Ui + MT + BC + MP - 100pts

X2 'Ui + MT + FB + MP - 104pts

Troops -
x6 Firewariors
+Develfish + DP - 145pts

x10 Kroot - 70pts

Total = 501pts

The plan is to have the 'El and two Firestorms focus on wiping his infantry/getting precision shots with the CiB while the smaller 'Ui unit get in close to the tanks with the fusion blasters using the Kroot and JSJ for mobility. The Kroot and FWs are self explanatory, use the Kroot as meatshields/objective squatters and shuttle the FWs around the map in the Fish to deny objectives/draw fire/be a general pain.

I cosidered either getting a single Broadside or a single Piranha but I'm not made of money and tbh I'm not sure how useful those would be here.
Anyway, thoughts and help are appreciated.

Sack the Devilfish, first off. It's too many points for a transport that has no decent weapons. It's durable, but that's it.

Next, get the broadside. It's worth the points since it has a good chance to take down any armor including flyers.

Then change your suits. Burst cannons are silly. They do nothing for suits but take up points and weapon slots. Twin-linked missile pods and flamers, with team leaders and Black sun filters will be your best bet. Good at taking down infantry, heavy infantry, armor, and fliers. Versatility is what you'll need in a low point game.

I'd sit tight with two units of fire warriors hiding in terrain until your missiles and broadside are done taking out the major threats.

TurplePurtle wrote:

My problem is that 500pt Guard player. Because he is an [REDACTED]-Hole and will no doubt either take a Leman Russ (maybe more than 1 knowing him) or God Forbid a Valkyrie.

This isn't ridiculous. It's Guard.


Bring a broadside.

What is it with everyone taking Blacksun Filters these days? They just get rid of Night Fighting, a rule I've never seen anyone use outside of random games with people they don't know, or am I missing something?

Right now for the Suits I'm working off of this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360480.page

The reasons I didnt take the flamers vs guard is because I don't trust being that close to them, with a bad Thrust Move roll they could end up bogged down in combat with fodder while the tanks ruin me. Is there a reason you don't recommend the Kroot at rapid fire range theyre about as good at taking out GEQ's and are invaluable for holding objectives and bogging down Marines/Orks/Eldar.

TurplePurtle wrote:
What is it with everyone taking Blacksun Filters these days? They just get rid of Night Fighting, a rule I've never seen anyone use outside of random games with people they don't know, or am I missing something?

Right now for the Suits I'm working off of this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360480.page

The reasons I didnt take the flamers vs guard is because I don't trust being that close to them, with a bad Thrust Move roll they could end up bogged down in combat with fodder while the tanks ruin me. Is there a reason you don't recommend the Kroot at rapid fire range theyre about as good at taking out GEQ's and are invaluable for holding objectives and bogging down Marines/Orks/Eldar.

Everyone should use Night Fighting. Its in the rules. Thus Blacksun Filters are good.

Of course if you start ignoring rules, certain wargear becomes less useful. But with all the rules intact, blacksun filters have their place.

TurplePurtle wrote:
What is it with everyone taking Blacksun Filters these days? They just get rid of Night Fighting, a rule I've never seen anyone use outside of random games with people they don't know, or am I missing something?

Right now for the Suits I'm working off of this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360480.page

The reasons I didnt take the flamers vs guard is because I don't trust being that close to them, with a bad Thrust Move roll they could end up bogged down in combat with fodder while the tanks ruin me. Is there a reason you don't recommend the Kroot at rapid fire range theyre about as good at taking out GEQ's and are invaluable for holding objectives and bogging down Marines/Orks/Eldar.

Since night fighting is part of the rules now and gives a 50% chance of it on the first turn, canceling out night fighting is a pretty good bonus. You get to shoot your opponent, while you get cover saves or can't be seen period. As a race that has a way around night fighting, I would suggest that you play with the rule since it benefits you.

However, if your group just ignores this aspect of the game, you probably don't need to spend points on the filters.

Savageconvoy obviously never tried to math the suits, burst cannons are quite more effective then they would seem on first glance.
Less damage, less points-often a better damage/cost ratio.

TLMP+flamer are FAR from being good against "infantry, heavy infantry, armor, and fliers" too-they are medicore against infantry, useless agaisnt heavy infantry, decent against LIGHT armor (useeses against heavy) and only decent against fliers due to a lack of a better option (broadsides also claim this spot though)

In all seriousness, if you even SUSPECT armor deployed at 500 points, a single broadside is the way to go. it never hurts to have one, unless your opponent runs full infantry masses, usually it will brake down transports at the very least.

On another note-in such numbers you will much rather have lots more firewarriors then a devilfish. devilfish belongs in larger games only.

If you want to run burst cannon, you're better off running stealthsuits. You can fit more BCs into the same points and leave your Crisis suits for carrying the heavy stuff you can't get anywhere else. If you're after budget anti-vehicle you can do worse than a couple of Deathrain suits. Only 100 points or so for 2x TL missile pods that are great agaisnt all kinds of light vehicles and medium infantry. They also have a decent chance against flyers being TL with multiple shots.

TurplePurtle wrote:
I don't want to buy a Broadside for my first 500 points just so I can deal with that AV14/13

You're screwed. Admit you're going to lose and plan for the next game.

Total = 501pts

Not a legal list. Remove options until you are under 500 points.

TurplePurtle wrote:


HQ -
'El + MT + CiB + MP - 82pts

Elites -
x2 'Ui + MT + BC + MP - 100pts

X2 'Ui + MT + FB + MP - 104pts

Troops -
x6 Firewariors
+Develfish + DP - 145pts

x10 Kroot - 70pts

Total = 501pts

Well first, 500 points or under please.

Ok so we are worried about tanks yes? Well a single broadside with two shield drones will run you 20% of your points cost. If you want to be sneaky about it, model some fancy looking pens on the shoulders of a battlesuit. Boom, broadside.

As for your list, the fish isn't helping.

But the biggest problem is your loadout on your suits. Cyclic ion and missile pod! No no no go cyclic ion plasma always, or just give him an airburster, fusion gun, targetting array on an el.

Your other suits, the fusion and missiles, are ok, but I would recommend in this case twin lined missile pods and flamers, a good suit to take in nearly any game.

Finally the burst cannon missile pod is doing something you already do, str 5. Don't take str 5 on battlesuits, it's stupid. The army already has enough on the field, it doesn't need more on the only guys that can bring different guns. Switch to plasma or don't bring them.

Hope this helps.

If I was playing IG @ 500 pts I'd bring

Primaris Psyker- 70
Vet Squad-2Meltagun-90
Vet Squad-2flamer-80

Vendetta-130
Vendetta-130

Is it amazing? Nope, but some people will cry alot about it.

In 500 Pt's I'd prolly take the ADL+Quad, sure it's 100pts but its 4+ cover and 4xTL Str7 shots w/ skyfire.

I ran a list like gak for fun against my tau friend.

CCS
Vets 1x melta gun
Vets 1x melta gun

LRBT
LRBT


I think he took a hammerhead and firewarriors/kroot/battlesuit commander (we didnt know what army were would play against)

I eneded up winning because I focused on the hammerhead with my LRBTs. He had pretty bad luck and couldnt pop one in time.


Point is, you need railguns and the rest of his army is not really a threat since he has so many points tied up in them at 500pts. If you can pop them with a hammerhead/2x broadside or something, you should be able to win the game.

Hell, you can probably win if you just camp objectives since he wont have too many troops.

A boradside can live without shield drones. 2 is a MASSIVE overkill in such size if you even going to bother (and I suggest you don't, why spend so much protecting such a situational unit? it loses potency once there are no more tanks anyway.)

As for running burst cannons on stealth suits being cheaper-you get it all wrong.
Burst on stealth is a very viable option, but burst on crisis is taken to be paired with another gun, creating gun platfrms such as the bladestorm, who is very effective at killing pretty much everything. (that does not have an AV value)

You're forgetting the LR has a gun on it, maybe a lascannon as well, and one wound from either will down yonder broadside. Unless you never roll under a 5, you're fine.

Burst cannons on battlesuits are wastes of hard points, space and modeling. You get more mileage out of the other guns you can take, you don't need more str 5 in an army that has too much. Go plasma, go missile pods, hell take flamers or fusion guns. Kill things, don't throw more str 5 at them.

Yeah as a IG player, I am going to take a Leman Russ at any points value no question. (while still having the 2 troops and HQ)

Keep in mind your little suits can move pretty far, so try and get close and fusion or jump behind and blast the tank. Make sure there is a normal amount of terrain and keep this in your plan as you take turns setting up the cover.....or broad side

in a 500 point games against tread heads my answer to Russes was a Shas'O Bladestorm in the rear armer. BC are plenty strong enough to glance most of the LR variants on the back and 2 plasma's in the tail pipe can get the job done quick.

You have the fire power to hit get through rear armor on your list. Just don't try and go nose to nose with that av14/13 armor.

The DF is taking points you should probably sink in to troops.

A Broad side with SMS is still pretty useful even with out armor around. It is so much fun one shotting heavy weapon teams.

barnowl wrote:
in a 500 point games against tread heads my answer to Russes was a Shas'O Bladestorm in the rear armer. BC are plenty strong enough to glance most of the LR variants on the back and 2 plasma's in the tail pipe can get the job done quick.

So how exactly are you getting into rear armor of a vehicle that can sit with its rear armor against the table edge and still hit everywhere on the table?

 juraigamer wrote:

Burst cannons on battlesuits are wastes of hard points, space and modeling. You get more mileage out of the other guns you can take, you don't need more str 5 in an army that has too much. Go plasma, go missile pods, hell take flamers or fusion guns. Kill things, don't throw more str 5 at them.

At least READ the mathhammer article for a start, then do some calculations on your own. burst cannons is used n multiple very cost-effective setups, even against marines.
Its not a fool-proof gun, but its useful for anything non-armor. burst cannon+plasma is the most efficient setup against SS termis, one of the best against guardsmen (second to burst+missile alone), and beats the fireknife when it comes to marines or terminators. (heck, not only it kills more cost-effective, it outright kills more!)
Plus, with each suit costing less, yet retaining much of the same kill ratio you lose less % of your army to each lost suit, and can afford to bring more guns.


Cheap or super-specialized crisis suits is the way to go.

 Peregrine wrote:

barnowl wrote:
in a 500 point games against tread heads my answer to Russes was a Shas'O Bladestorm in the rear armer. BC are plenty strong enough to glance most of the LR variants on the back and 2 plasma's in the tail pipe can get the job done quick.

So how exactly are you getting into rear armor of a vehicle that can sit with its rear armor against the table edge and still hit everywhere on the table?

I have noticed very very few LR on the back of the board edge. If they are there then you can auto hit in assault on the rear armor at S5. Again it wont stop the heaviest armor out there, but it can deal with a LR. And since OP happens to have 2 suits with FBs it is really not a big deal just DS close enough to go to town.

barnowl wrote:
If they are there then you can auto hit in assault on the rear armor at S5.

First of all you can't assault out of deep strike, which is the only way you're getting into assault range of a Leman Russ with a crisis suit.

Second, you don't auto hit because the Leman Russ can move forward 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001", count as moving, and not change position in any meaningful way. And since it's a heavy vehicle that can shoot as if it hadn't moved it will always do so.

The math hammer for the burst cannon doesn't take into account the range difference. It does jack against armor and has the same chance of wounding as standard infantry weapons. The missile pods will generally wound any infantry on a 2+ at twice the burst cannon's range. Has a better chance of wounding MCs. I read the Mathhammer article. It's just not taking key things into consideration. I don't need S5. I need S7 shots that can take down armor, wound on 2's, and give me the range to make it matter. Especially when night fighting is in effect.

I stand by my opinion that Burst cannons are worthless.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I stand by my opinion that Burst cannons are worthless.

Especially since they're out-shot by fire warriors. If you aren't taking crisis suits armed with weapons that can deal with things fire warriors are bad against (tanks, terminators, etc) you should be taking more scoring units instead.

I've been really liking this unit so far:

3 Crisis suits
-2 with TL missile pods and a flamer
-1 with TL missile pods and a blacksun filter

Quite a good buy for 140 points

@ OP: Railguns are needed for AV13-14. A single broadside seems the only reasonable option in 500 point games, and the first thing on the chopping block is the devilfish.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The math hammer for the burst cannon doesn't take into account the range difference.

Except if you pair with with ANY weapon, you need to get close anyway, so the range bonus is irrelevant unless you are going to take it as twin-linked, the one way I said is the RIGHT way to use MP.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The missile pods will generally wound any infantry on a 2+ at twice the burst cannon's range.

And the BC will also wound any T3 with same effectiveness, and T4 with just 3+ instead of 2+, but with an additional shot that more then makes up for it. (range was already explained as irrelevant once paired with another gun.)

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Has a better chance of wounding MCs.

True that. but these are hardly common. most armies don't even have the option of having one.

Facts are, against the more common targets, the burst outperforms in anything but range-and as the S5 is common at the Tau as it is, you might as well figure out that the MP, despite his more unique stats actually gives nothing to a non-deathrain suit, as no gun matchs missile pod ranges, or even comes close-and the only ones who match in target choices (plasma for MC and fusion for AV) are better matched with each other.

And don't diss the burst cannon so fast despite the common S5 around. paired with a PR its a very nasty suit for the cost. (didnt find any other suit setup where the BC was of value though, its just to give some secondary shooting for a plasma-user for cheap.)

Which is why I only advocate using death rains at such a low game because they are more accurate and have a more versatile weapon.

Thanks a lot for all the input guys, constructive or otherwise, its much appreciated!
After some thinking over and a chat with the guys I'll be playing with its become apparent that I can expect a Valkyrie in my first 500 point game vs Guard so with that in mind, the following list:

HQ -
Shas'El + HW-Blacksun Filter + MP + MT + BC = 78

Troops -
x6 Fire Warriors - 60

x6 Fire Warriors - 60

Elites -
x1 Shas'Ui + FG + PR + MT = 62
x1 Shas'Ui + BC + PR + MT = 58


x2 Shas'Ui + MP + BC + MT = 100

Heavy Suport -
x1 Broadside Shas'Ui Team Leader + HW-Blacksun Filter + MT = 83

Total: 501pts (I know Im one point over, no one will care and I'm sure someone else will be too. Otherwise Ill turn a BC into a Flamer and problem solved, my suits will be magnetised.)

Re the Blacksun Filters, I havn't played 40k since 3rd Edition, I didn't realise night fighting has become such a big deal, naturally I will take the Filters.
Re Flamers vs Burst Cannons, I'm sorry but I want my suits at arms length, the more I can JSJ the better and no matter how I position myself during the shooting phase its rare, if not impossible to manage to hit a squad without getting the brunt of the enemy counter attack.

So now the plan is to hide my FWs in cover as much as possible, only moving to take outlying objectives. My 'El and his retinue of two Firestorms will mulch any GEQ's and the MP's are good for chancing a clip against fliers or side armor of vehicles with some savvy maneuvering. The two PG suits are there to deal with the MEQ's if Im facing Marines or Necrons (3 of the 6 eventual match ups)
the str 5+ across the board should eat through their limited numbers eventually.

The reasoning behind the MT on the Broadside is that in a 500pt game I need him firing everything he has as often as possible, the plan is to deploy him somewhere with good LOS, preferably away from any objectives to pull enemies towards him and snipe, if I'm lucky I can pop him into some elevated terrain giving him a nice 5+ or better cover save from the aforementioned Lasscannons and Missile Launchers.

I'm not gonna lie, I'm not extatic with this list and there is room for improvement but depending on who I'm facing that day I can always swap out weapon systems (although that feels a bit against the spirit of the campaign)

The feedback is appreciated, keep it coming! I've yet to buy anything so this is helping a lot in the planning.

TurplePurtle wrote:
Total: 501pts (I know Im one point over, no one will care and I'm sure someone else will be too. Otherwise Ill turn a BC into a Flamer and problem solved, my suits will be magnetised.)

Not acceptable. If you show up with a 501 point list in a 500 point game you should not be allowed to play until you fix your list, so you might as well just fix it now. And TBH, if I was running an event and you showed up with a list that was deliberately over the point limit I'd just kick you out of the event for cheating.

The reasoning behind the MT on the Broadside is that in a 500pt game I need him firing everything he has as often as possible

This is a bad idea. A SMS at BS 3 is an average of two pulse rifle hits per turn, which doesn't really add much firepower. You're better off taking ASS so you can move and shoot, or a TA so your railgun is more likely to hit when you need it most. This is especially true since the SMS is weak at best against railgun targets, while the railgun is weak against anything the SMS is good against. Using a MT for dual weapons is only worth it when you buy the plasma upgrade for a gun you actually care about and synergy between the two weapons, and it's usually best as a HWMT with a TA/ASS as well.

I'm not gonna lie, I'm not extatic with this list and there is room for improvement but depending on who I'm facing that day I can always swap out weapon systems (although that feels a bit against the spirit of the campaign)

If the person running your event has any sense they will require you to submit your final list before assigning opponents for that round. If they don't care enough to run a proper event, feel free to take advantage of it and list tailor for each specific game.

TurplePurtle wrote:
Total: 501pts (I know Im one point over, no one will care and I'm sure someone else will be too. Otherwise Ill turn a BC into a Flamer and problem solved, my suits will be magnetised.)

Knowingly violating rules is cheating. If no one cares, you are taking advantage of their generosity by cheating.

Haha this getting hung up on 1 point lads, relax, its just 7 friends playing a lose campaign and as I've already said if it does end up being an issue (Which it won't) Ill take a flamer instead of a BC on one of the close range FG units, naturally if this was a serious tournament I would always take the flamer over the BC and call it at that! As for changing the list, fluff wise it makes a lot of sense that a team of battlesuits would gear up for expected opposition but as I said, I'm not sure how this campaign will be run yet so right now I'm going for maximum efficiency in a single list.

Back on track, with regards to the MT on the Boradside you make a really good point! I considered ASS long and hard but as someone pointed out in a different 500 point thread at this points limit, with good elevation, he should be able to hit any vehicle on the board unless its hiding, in which case that vehicle will probably be pretty ineffective for most of the game. I might just drop him down to regular Suit and use the extra ten points for another FW!

TurplePurtle wrote:
Thanks a lot for all the input guys, constructive or otherwise, its much appreciated!
After some thinking over and a chat with the guys I'll be playing with its become apparent that I can expect a Valkyrie in my first 500 point game vs Guard so with that in mind, the following list:

HQ -
Shas'El + HW-Blacksun Filter + MP + MT + BC = 78

Troops -
x6 Fire Warriors - 60

x6 Fire Warriors - 60

Elites -
x1 Shas'Ui + FG + PR + MT = 62
x1 Shas'Ui + BC + PR + MT = 58


x2 Shas'Ui + MP + BC + MT = 100

Heavy Suport -
x1 Broadside Shas'Ui Team Leader + HW-Blacksun Filter + MT = 83

Total: 501pts (I know Im one point over, no one will care and I'm sure someone else will be too. Otherwise Ill turn a BC into a Flamer and problem solved, my suits will be magnetised.)

A couple of common mistakes here.

First your Broadside doesn't need to be a team leader, nor does he need a multi-tracker. You won't be shooting both guns at the same target, instead give him two shield drones. Trust me on this one, hard wire a blacksun if you have the points, because no nightfighting is amazing.

Your HQ will want to live, so keeping him in the back is a good thing. I suggest either giving him TL missile pods and some other gun, maybe airburster since guard, and a complement of a shield drone or two. However you can also outfit him with missile plasma for the reason I'm about to suggest.

You actually have too many battlesuits for such a low points game. I know that sounds stupid, but hear me out. You have 8 wounds that cost nearly half your army point value. If they take 8 wounds, or 4 str 8 or higher wounds, half your army is gone. I suggest taking 2-3 suits, preferably as one team with team leader and shield drones on him, maybe hard wired blacksun and outfit the team to support the HQ, who can attach to them for more protection.

With the leftover points, sprinkle in some kroot for outflanking to get in the guards zone, infiltrating works too. 10 man teams are perfect, a little larger is fine too, but the larger they get, the more they need a shaper for leadership bonuses.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:

Burst cannons on battlesuits are wastes of hard points, space and modeling. You get more mileage out of the other guns you can take, you don't need more str 5 in an army that has too much. Go plasma, go missile pods, hell take flamers or fusion guns. Kill things, don't throw more str 5 at them.

At least READ the mathhammer article for a start, then do some calculations on your own. burst cannons is used n multiple very cost-effective setups, even against marines.

Cheap or super-specialized crisis suits is the way to go.

I don't need to read an article on averages to tell me how to play, I play the army and know what works. Markerlights say your averages are bogus anyway.

Burst cannons require you to get within 18 inches, which is too close. Plasma/missile keeps you far away, far enough that you can avoid most basic guns, and deals with all targets. As such, plasma/missile, or TL missiles flamer, or HQ and bodyguard with fusion plasma, or HQ with airburster are the only ways I recommend building suits. Battlesuits are easy to kill, and are the only way of bringing their guns, which cannot be taken elsewhere in the codex, save plasma, which broadsides can take.

While it's true that plasma rifles work best at the 12 inch mark, if you're there you are going for the kill or against a wall, not showing up with a little pew pew gun and hoping.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Has a better chance of wounding MCs.

True that. but these are hardly common. most armies don't even have the option of having one.

What game are you playing? MC's are all over the place. Nid players are arriving in droves, Demons are popping up, there's still the odd dreadknight from time to time. Lets not forget trying to deal with crazy high toughness targets using biomancy.