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Minor quibbles Shep: BC get 4 attacks on the charge, and Scouts only ever had 1 Melta gun. They could carry 2 power weapons and 2 plasma pistols in addition, but only 1 special. And "Operating Behind Enemy Lines" only allowed you to come in on opponent's side. The ability has been reduced to working 66% of the time, but now you can choose any table edge. That is an amazing tactical boon.

And you can still drop 5 MM Long Fangs and nuke 2 vehicles (or 2 IG squadrons)... you just need to take Logan to do it.

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again, this army will be about the sagas and abilities making the list more than the sum of its units.

Skyclaws are only 18 points. Yep, for 3 points, you just strapped a jump pack onto a Bloodclaw. It doesn't make them hideously good, but they're cheap enough to make it into some lists. Especially since you can add an IC or WGPL with a jump pack (which gets a little pricey, but isn't horribly).

SWs are definitely a close-quarter army. They need to be played agressively and get into the other guy's grill to do well. I can see several units of cheap GHs in rhinos, some wolf scouts (which again, aren't great, but are still relatively cheap), terminators, and maybe some assault troops in land raiders. Rune Priests are pretty solid. I'm happy with the Codex, but it doesn't have that PSB, Crusher, etc. type of unit either. And the cavalry (Space Wolves on Wolves) is nice, but at 50 points a head, even with abusing would allocation (which will cost you more points), I don't know that they're at the same level as TH/SS Termies, Crushers, etc.

ubermosher wrote:And "Operating Behind Enemy Lines" only allowed you to come in on opponent's side. The ability has been reduced to working 66% of the time, but now you can choose any table edge. That is an amazing tactical boon.

And OBEL could only work for 1 unit of Scouts in 3rd, now you can spam scouts and they might all come in off the back edge. And I will say, OBEL was nice against some armies, and junk against others - because after declaring OBEL, by RAW, they had to come in on that table edge. So, if your opponent moved out of their DZ, you had a unit of scouts walk on and had nothing to shoot. Personally, if I'm going to take Scouts, I'm probably taking 2 units, and figuring that means there's a 8 in 9 chance of getting at least one coming in from anywhere.

So far i think shep has given this entire thread a fething good summing up
From what you have said i actually agree, its not until you look at it all as a whole you realise that there is nothing major game breaking there.
However, some lists will have to watch out a bit more (nidzilla mainly) when playing pups since they have some new tricks.

Points wise, i think they have been done pertty well here, nothing seems to be good without a fitting price tag clipped to it.

I may change my BA army for when pups hit, but thats mainly due to be over cautious.
Last thing i want is to have valuable units of mine smashed apart by little more than "magic"
So i think a libby may have to run with my termies for a while until i get a grasp on how they work.

dietrich wrote:Skyclaws are only 18 points. Yep, for 3 points, you just strapped a jump pack onto a Bloodclaw. It doesn't make them hideously good, but they're cheap enough to make it into some lists. Especially since you can add an IC or WGPL with a jump pack (which gets a little pricey, but isn't horribly).

Agreed, with the second PW from a WG along with the with the +2 on the charge, sky claws are one of the more effective close combat jump troops in the game...and that is what jump troops are suppose to be good at, CC. They are not mind blowingly awesome, but I think they are ecomical for what you get.

JD21290 wrote:So far i think shep has given this entire thread a fething good summing up .

I concur. Interesting read. I`ll try and challenge the local "Wolf Lord" to a test match against my Guard as soon as possible. It should be interesting. The shooting might of Imperial Guard against the close combat ferocity of the Sons of Russ.

The only thing I really disagree with is the Skyclaw assessment. Also you forgot to add in that termies can use their drop pods which is a huge boon, and dreads have some other gear that isn't to bad.

1st the Skyclaws. They are far and away at least 33% better in assault on the first turn than any other jump troops in the game against MEQ. That's without a WG leader attached. A 10 man Assault Marine squad w/out weapons costs 190. With a power weapon and single flamer they are 215. Skyclaws w/both of the above upgrades only cost 200. I'll probably be fielding a few and screening them with vehicles.

2nd the drop pods for termies. Safe deepstriking terminators that can have combi-weapons and stand up in combat is just sick. You pay a little bit but for only 3 points more than a standard termi you can get a "wolf claw" and a combi-melta which isn't something that should be ignored. This is more of an add-on to Shep's analysis.

3rd Dreads start w/an assault cannon. Just 105 which is nice. I can also upgrade them to hit on 3+. Granted odds are that the dreads will be the thing cut from the elite section when I need them to but it's still a little different.

All in all Shep's overview is very nice. I dont' think the new SW codex will be broken and my main tourney army is Nid's right now. I'm just gonna have to add shadows of the warp and try to position myself well

As a side not I'm going to be taking Mark of the Wulfen on every squad that can. d6+1 Rending attacks for 15pts can tip a lot of combats not to mention that no matter how silly it gives the chance to take out a dread without taking a fist. Someone should mathhammer that out the odds and see if the difference is worth a fist.

wyomingfox wrote:

dietrich wrote:Skyclaws are only 18 points. Yep, for 3 points, you just strapped a jump pack onto a Bloodclaw. It doesn't make them hideously good, but they're cheap enough to make it into some lists. Especially since you can add an IC or WGPL with a jump pack (which gets a little pricey, but isn't horribly).

Agreed, with the second PW from a WG along with the with the +2 on the charge, sky claws are one of the more effective close combat jump troops in the game...and that is what jump troops are suppose to be good at, CC. They are not mind blowingly awesome, but I think they are ecomical for what you get.

I totally agree. i think that is why the game developers are so vexed for jump infantry. Look at how many attacks stormboys get. They have the best floating fist in the game, and they move 12+D6". And they are cheap! There is just something about their lack of survivability going in that ruins them. Close combat units that aren't protected by transports lose their effectiveness as they get shot up, and are generally wiped off the table after their first consolidate. Making skyclaws or stormboys any cheaper seems crazy, but at their current cost, they just can't seem to hold it together long enough to kill more than one target. And they have very little control over what that target is.

ubermosher wrote:Minor quibbles Shep: BC get 4 attacks on the charge, and Scouts only ever had 1 Melta gun. They could carry 2 power weapons and 2 plasma pistols in addition, but only 1 special. And "Operating Behind Enemy Lines" only allowed you to come in on opponent's side. The ability has been reduced to working 66% of the time, but now you can choose any table edge. That is an amazing tactical boon.

And you can still drop 5 MM Long Fangs and nuke 2 vehicles (or 2 IG squadrons)... you just need to take Logan to do it.

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again, this army will be about the sagas and abilities making the list more than the sum of its units.

Yeah they do have 4 attacks on the charge, except their power fist holder, who is not choppy. He'll have 3 on the charge then 1 afterwards. Blood claws certainly have tons and tons of strength 4 attacks, and i those times where those attacks have value then the blood claws rule. But I just don't see those times pop up that often in my local games.

As to the scouts. They did only have one melta forgot that, and that is a good point about more than one scout unit getting behind enemy lines and having a bit more of a choice as to where you come in. I'd say that evens out. So we have a scout unit that was kinda good but not back breaking. And you can have more than one of them. If you give up lone wolves or wolf guard.

As for the MM long fangs. If I played space wolves, and i ran logan, I think that is how i'd plan to make my entrance with him but we all know that the unit will cost an arm and a leg, but what an entrance!

We've seen the sagas. There isn't anything that will 'unlock' some game breaker combo. I appreciate your stance and agree that using sagas wisely will make you a better space wolf general. But if your position is that 'certain sagas will break 40k' then I seriously disagree.

Majesty = company standard
beast slayer = master crafted thunder hammers
iron wolf = red paint
wolf = makes a bad unit better
bear = makes a non special character a special character
warrior born = slow bloodfeeder
hunter = kosarro khan

They are all good. i like them all. But we have analogs in game already, and none of them are particularly devastating. Cool? yes. Makes other armies unplayable? No.

thunderwolf cavalry - making an apples to oranges comparison, these guys cost 10 points more than bloodcrushers, for a loss of power armor and weapons and a point of toughness gain

Wait -- what armor save do these guys get?

Lowinor wrote:

thunderwolf cavalry - making an apples to oranges comparison, these guys cost 10 points more than bloodcrushers, for a loss of power armor and weapons and a point of toughness gain

Wait -- what armor save do these guys get?

Save 3+ and can still buy a Stormshield for 3+ Inv and cost almost the cost of a basic WGBL

Good analysis Shep although as has been said I think you are a little hard on skyclaws and fenrisians too. Whilst fleshhounds and rough riders may be comparable and rarely seen you need to consider the unit in the context of the rest of the list. With so many small expensive units in the wolf dex the opportunity to put some cheap, fast bodies that hit as hard as a GH will be taken by some players. Anyone wanting a 13th co analogue needs them for a start and any mech list might consider adding 1 squad for a cheap assault unit that hits turn 2 when the hunters are still getting out of their rhinos. I doubt you&ll see them in every list but I think they&Re actually quite a good unit.


One other thing about Canis. In addition to wolves as a troop choice (distinctly meh) he makes thunderwolf cav a troop choice. A canis led thunderwing might be the power build from this codex. At 250 pts for a unit of 5 1250 pts nets you 5 scoring fast moving multi wound units of 5 models that hit with str 5 and rending. Add in some equipment options (i.e. fists for tank hunting and MEQ busting) Canis at another 200 and maybe some speeders for fire support and that looks like a fun army to play with and quite a tough one to me.

Shep wrote:We've seen the sagas. There isn't anything that will 'unlock' some game breaker combo. I appreciate your stance and agree that using sagas wisely will make you a better space wolf general. But if your position is that 'certain sagas will break 40k' then I seriously disagree.

No, they won't "break" 40k at all, nor should they. I'm a faithful SW player (and have been chuckling at all the OMGz over WGT having access to drop pods... this is nothing new) and I don't want this codex to be the ubercodex, b/c as a smug SW player I don't want to see it become the flavor of the week.

What I'm stating is that analysis of sagas, character abilities, etc., and their interaction with units will reap more interesting tactics and play styles than the standard unit-by-unit analysis done for most new codices that come out, and that's what I am more looking forward to, and can't wait to get the book so I can get started.

Though that being said, I am greatly enthralled by the prospect of having 2X 6 Long Fangs with 10 Missile Launchers between them being able to fire at 4 different dedicated transports per turn, for about 280 points (if what I've read is true: 15 pt Long Fangs, w/ 10 pt ML's). That is a ton of cheap utility to neutralize the maneuver of mech armies, and to also break open the hard shells to get at all those soft-gooey morsels inside. As I also play IG Mech-Vets, that is a combo I'm not looking forward to playing against.

ubermosher wrote:

Shep wrote:We've seen the sagas. There isn't anything that will 'unlock' some game breaker combo. I appreciate your stance and agree that using sagas wisely will make you a better space wolf general. But if your position is that 'certain sagas will break 40k' then I seriously disagree.

No, they won't "break" 40k at all, nor should they. I'm a faithful SW player (and have been chuckling at all the OMGz over WGT having access to drop pods... this is nothing new) and I don't want this codex to be the ubercodex, b/c as a smug SW player I don't want to see it become the flavor of the week.

What I'm stating is that analysis of sagas, character abilities, etc., and their interaction with units will reap more interesting tactics and play styles than the standard unit-by-unit analysis done for most new codices that come out, and that's what I am more looking forward to, and can't wait to get the book so I can get started.

Though that being said, I am greatly enthralled by the prospect of having 2X 6 Long Fangs with 10 Missile Launchers between them being able to fire at 4 different dedicated transports per turn, for about 280 points (if what I've read is true: 15 pt Long Fangs, w/ 10 pt ML's). That is a ton of cheap utility to neutralize the maneuver of mech armies, and to also break open the hard shells to get at all those soft-gooey morsels inside. As I also play IG Mech-Vets, that is a combo I'm not looking forward to playing against.

Agreed. If the Space Wolves become too amazing, then there would be WAY too many Space Wolves players, and that CANNOT BE!

Hulksmash wrote:The only thing I really disagree with is the Skyclaw assessment. Also you forgot to add in that termies can use their drop pods which is a huge boon, and dreads have some other gear that isn't to bad.

1st the Skyclaws. They are far and away at least 33% better in assault on the first turn than any other jump troops in the game against MEQ. That's without a WG leader attached. A 10 man Assault Marine squad w/out weapons costs 190. With a power weapon and single flamer they are 215. Skyclaws w/both of the above upgrades only cost 200. I'll probably be fielding a few and screening them with vehicles.

Strictly speaking this is true, but in my experience assault marines tend to travel with jump chaplains more often than not. How does the math hammer stack up for wounds per turn comparing skyclaws with vanilla assault marines+chap? (im too lazy, and not sure what the alleged statline on the claws is supposed to be, or I would do it myself). I would think litanies would make up for at least a decent portion of those extra attacks you get with the claws.

That being said, I agree that they are looking like they will probably be the strongest jump unit in the game (which excites me, because I love jump packs, but cant bring myself to play blood angels).

@Count

But then you are well over 100pts more than the Skyclaw unit. If I add in a Wolf Priest w/a jump pack I can do the same thing My point was point for point Skyclaws are far superior to assault marines. In fairness I think they are better than Stormboyz as well. The extra survivability and the same number of attack coupled w/st4 in4 every turn makes them worth 1.5x the points.

But it'd be something along the lines of 25 to 20. Which swings it to a 25% bonus to the assault squad. But I can add in half another squad for that one chaplain

i know earlier in the thread it said that WG termies could take a heavy weapon for every 5th terminator but is it every full 5 or portion thereafter? i.e. with 6 wolf guard can you take a heavy or do you have to get to 10 before you're elegible for the second one?

warboss wrote:i know earlier in the thread it said that WG termies could take a heavy weapon for every 5th terminator but is it every full 5 or portion thereafter? i.e. with 6 wolf guard can you take a heavy or do you have to get to 10 before you're elegible for the second one?

"for every 5 models in the squad, one wolfguard in terminator armor may take.." , so I'm assuming you need to take all 10 WG to get two terminators with heavy weapons.

However...note that it is not 'every 5th terminator', it's for every 5 models in the squad.

So, it is legal to take a full 10 man squad, give terminator armor and assault cannons to 2 of them, jump packs to the rest, and then at the start of the game split off the two termies to lead other squads. Wolf guard are extreemly versitile as a unit.

mikhaila wrote:

warboss wrote:i know earlier in the thread it said that WG termies could take a heavy weapon for every 5th terminator but is it every full 5 or portion thereafter? i.e. with 6 wolf guard can you take a heavy or do you have to get to 10 before you're elegible for the second one?

"for every 5 models in the squad, one wolfguard in terminator armor may take.." , so I'm assuming you need to take all 10 WG to get two terminators with heavy weapons.

However...note that it is not 'every 5th terminator', it's for every 5 models in the squad.

So, it is legal to take a full 10 man squad, give terminator armor and assault cannons to 2 of them, jump packs to the rest, and then at the start of the game split off the two termies to lead other squads. Wolf guard are extreemly versitile as a unit.

I can see beardy mofo's doing this .

Can we get a thread started that combines all the known info from both this thread and the SW codex thread please?

It would make it easier for everyone knowing that all the info is on page 1 and not over lots of pages across two threads.

(Sorry guys, I'm just getting a wee bit impatient.)

Me too, 'stiff. I've eyeballed the Codex no less than 5 times now. and it was 5 times in 3 days. So I am cutting myself off from the store. 3 weeks feels like forever.

Oh well, soon enough.

Farmer wrote:

mikhaila wrote:"for every 5 models in the squad, one wolfguard in terminator armor may take.." , so I'm assuming you need to take all 10 WG to get two terminators with heavy weapons.

However...note that it is not 'every 5th terminator', it's for every 5 models in the squad.

So, it is legal to take a full 10 man squad, give terminator armor and assault cannons to 2 of them, jump packs to the rest, and then at the start of the game split off the two termies to lead other squads. Wolf guard are extreemly versitile as a unit.

I can see beardy mofo's doing this .

i'm not actually a fan of that in general. if i were playing against another ATSKNF marine army or fearless'a'plenty chaos force, then i'd do it. otherwise, losing the ability to sweeping advance (which you do if the termie WG joins a unit in power armor) is too much of a price against squishy armies where you count on running them down.

Someone say what the Lone Wolf does exactly.

Hollismason wrote:Someone say what the Lone Wolf does exactly.

He fights aliens, and doesn't afraid of anything.

I like the way everythings going (I play a min # elite army) but two things worry me.

1st of all, what did the Wolf Priest do wrong? I would have been happy if theyd just taken the rules from chaps and apothecaries and added them (and their costs) into one wolf sized package. Now...

2nd, and I apologize if this has been covered but is there any reference (at all) to "No Matter the Odds"? That rule being nerfed by a certain useless FAQ writer screwed with a hell of a lot of my force mechanics.

Wait a minute...

According to the compiled list of info on page 16, Thunderwolf mounts can be given as 50 pt pieces of wargear to Elites, Fast Attack and HQ choices (which have their own pts values according to the list).
So basically, if this is correct, Wolf Guard can have Thunderwolves.

That means you can have over 100 Thunderwolf mounted models if you take Logan. 30 WG on TW for Elites, 60 for troops, 15 in fast attack with 3 WG squad leaders and 3 other characters on TW. I doubt that can be correct.

Thats a silly army, but it'll look kool.

radiohazard wrote:Wait a minute...

According to the compiled list of info on page 16, Thunderwolf mounts can be given as 50 pt pieces of wargear to Elites, Fast Attack and HQ choices (which have their own pts values according to the list).
So basically, if this is correct, Wolf Guard can have Thunderwolves.

That means you can have over 100 Thunderwolf mounted models if you take Logan. 30 WG on TW for Elites, 60 for troops, 15 in fast attack with 3 WG squad leaders and 3 other characters on TW. I doubt that can be correct.

Thats a silly army, but it'll look kool.

It will also cost thousands upon thousands of dollars with all those Canis conversions.

You know out there, somewhere in the BO tarpits and forests of greasy unwashed 4chan threads of the vast, horrible expanses of the internet there is a Warham infesting his mother's basement who will come to that idea on his own. Then he will believe he has found a friend in the game designers who also must share his love of wolf t-shirts and Wolverine, and buy this army simply as a simulacrum of friendship that this creature must certainly hold as his utmost desire after underage japanese girls and teaching english in Japan. He will buy this army, even if it means he has to sell every Rouroni Kenshin and Tenchi Muyo wallscroll he owns to afford it.


Luckily, we'll never see it because a hambeast like that won't have the dedication and work effort to even put together such an army, much less paint it. I wouldn' worry about it.

I can sculpt a better Thunderwolf and make 100 copies for $2,50 a pop.

I'm that cool.

One thing I want to know is if Canis makes F.Wolves and TW cav troops choices.

I've heard and read conflicting reports of this, which one is right?