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bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

Archonate wrote:Yeah, what were we thinking? GW has never disappointed us before...

Yes because I said Gw were perfect.

Oh wait, no hang on. (re-reads his post) Apparently I didn't.

I said the massive hyperbolic over reaction people are having to the perceived power level of the new codex is an over reaction.

And what's more we have the same hyperbolic over reaction to the perceived power level of EVERY new codex, and it is always an over reaction, and it is always the same bloody people doing the over reacting and you'd think by now they might have learned to chill out a little.

Learn to parse a sentence first before you try being sarcastic.

Nobody is dumb enough to come to definitive conclusions about the Codex at this point in time. This thread exists to accommodate people who want to theorize and conjecture based on what limited information we have, as well as allow people who have seen actual printings to share. Though we do get the occasional bile-spewer who gets angry at people for discussing thoughts on the way the rumors sound...

Archonate wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

Archonate wrote:Yeah, what were we thinking? GW has never disappointed us before...

Yes because I said Gw were perfect.

Oh wait, no hang on. (re-reads his post) Apparently I didn't.

I said the massive hyperbolic over reaction people are having to the perceived power level of the new codex is an over reaction.

And what's more we have the same hyperbolic over reaction to the perceived power level of EVERY new codex, and it is always an over reaction, and it is always the same bloody people doing the over reacting and you'd think by now they might have learned to chill out a little.

Learn to parse a sentence first before you try being sarcastic.

Nobody is dumb enough to come to definitive conclusions about the Codex at this point in time. This thread exists to accommodate people who want to theorize and conjecture based on what limited information we have, as well as allow people who have seen actual printings to share. Though we do get the occasional bile-spewer who gets angry at people for discussing thoughts on the way the rumors sound...

Ooooh a subtle dig.

All I ask is for some perspective, for people to factor in hindsight when making pronouncements of doom and gloom.

Conjecture along the lines of the following (taken from another board) is perfectly fine by me.

"wow ragnar seems really powerful. Adding D3 to the charge and a once per game furious charge to boot means that him plus some bloodclaws is going to be one of the hardest hitting units in the whole game. Bloodcrushers and khorne berserkers are looking at that combo and crying."

"That looks waaaaaaaaaaaay OP"

"Yeah but you have to remember that they'll also need a land raider crusader to get the charge guaranteed and that ragnar plus the lrc is about 500pts already. Sure that'll kill anything stone dead but it costs nearly 700pts for one unit. That is half an army in most game sizes."


People discussing combos, rules, units, fluff and how gakked wolf riders are, how much they hate the new canis model, how much they love the new plastics, why the 10 man for a spec wep but 10 man capacity pod is silly etc is fine. I have no problem with anyone having a negative opinion. (Not that I am the high lord arbitator of what is okay on a message board). What irks me is peoiple crying the sky is falling and failing to remember that they did the same when IG, SM and Orks all came out.

I am tired of people crying wolf if you will.

ba dum tsssh.

Who cried the sky is falling when Guard came out? I seem to remember everyone waiting for something magical to arrive and then a resounding 'Meh' when it finally did.

ShumaGorath wrote: and two points shy of asdrubeal vect, a 20,000 year old eldar

I don't know about that... I mean, I shot that guy dead last week.

ShumaGorath wrote:Why is logan grimnar more expensive than marneus calgar, Ghazgull Thraka, Eldrad, AND WHY IS HE THE SAME POINTS VALUE AS ABBADON THE DESPOILER. He's 25 points shy of the deciever, who is a million year old god, and two points shy of asdrubeal vect, a 20,000 year old eldar who has ruled the most violent race in 40k for that entire stretch of time, and who brings his flying tank with him to the fight.

Did he grind baal for awesome loot? Does he have a cosmic cube? Did his latent mutant power of controlling the weather finally make it into a codex?

Did he really need to get even more expensive and powerful? He was 250 points before, back when spending that on a special character was mind blowing.

To be honest he doesn't sound like he is worth his points strictly on his own (and he never did in the last edition when he was nearly 80 pts more expensive than he should have been). In a straight up fight abaddon, the deceiver and other similaly pointed characters like calgar are all going to own him.

Instead his points reflect his ability to change the army composition and add value to units around him.

Eldrad is a good example of where GW are going with this current trend. Eldrad isn't a godly super human who strides the battlefields and takes on whole armies by himself like abaddon but he is a powerful support unit for the eldar buffing nearby units, screwing with enemy reserves/deployment, etc. His in game ability reflects his pts cost, his fluffwise ability is reflected in his statline.

And Logan's statline isn't much better than a standard space marine chapter master. He just costs so much more because he allows WG as troops and gives USRs to a unit he joins.

He certainly got more powerful, I would argue he is still a little bit overcosted. In fact most of the space wolf special chars seem to be prohibitively costly to use. As someone else mentioned ragnar, an LRC and BC's is a kickass combo but you're looking at around 700pts for effectively one unit. The only ones so far who looks worth their weight are logan (if you want a WG army a termie army or 13th co you need him) Canis (godly statline and agains if you want the all cav army you need him) and Njal (just seems fairly pointed based on what he can do. A footslogging force will benefit greatly from DS shut down or his KFF copycat and he can switch to offensive spells once he gst close enough.)

H.B.M.C. wrote:Who cried the sky is falling when Guard came out? I seem to remember everyone waiting for something magical to arrive and then a resounding 'Meh' when it finally did.

Precisely. By the time the release week rolled around, stunned silence and quiet resignation reigned far wider than any kind of proclamation of doom. The latter stage only lasted that brief interval between the release of the summary sheet and the first points costs leaking out.

Da Boss wrote:Jervis is annoying and overpowered and has lead to a massive drop in list diversity for chaos. Whining is justified.

Fixed it.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I swear the collective memory of 40k fans would embarass a goldfish.

No new army has ever broken the game. No new army has ever been so good that it was unbeatable even after people adjusted to it or the next few codecii were released.

Every new codex, every single bloody one we get cries of "cheese" "broken" "can't phil kelly tone it down" "I may as well sell all my models" and then within three months its back to normal or whining about the next lot.

Codex: Eldar in 2nd edition came pretty close, although that was a long time ago.

You're mostly right, but allow me to make a clarification. Some codices are still unquestionably more powerful than others. It's not as if all codices end up falling around the baseline after a few months. On the other hand, unidirectional codex creep is in fact a fallacy, and there's many examples -- SW and Eldar (early releases in 2nd), BA (early release in 3rd), Tyranids (early 4th), etc. Sometimes the most broken stuff occurs early in an edition when the designers clearly don't have as firm a handle on the implications of the new ruleset.

wyomingfox wrote:

ubermosher wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:It's one special CCW availabe in BC and GH squads. Both squads get 1 special weapon that is discounted no matter how many guys you take and both get a second one free when they are at full strength (10 for GH, 15 for BC).

Plus of course whatever kit you give the attached Wolf Guard.

It's interesting to note that most if not all of the analysis so far has been evaluating each unit at the elemental level, which b/c info is creeping in is really the only way to do it right now. But it seems to me that this codex will be all about the synergy of sagas, how units are outfitted, and special characters and how they interact with one another. This codex will be epitomize the phrase, "more than the sum of it's parts" and I am more looking forward to analyzing how to best mesh these things together to create some fun lists.

Well, I think that is largely because SW sergeants come separate from the troop units. Now given that 5th edition mech is powerfull and given that SW rhinos and drop pods are only capcity 10, the thought is which do you want more...a pricey CC WG sergeant or a cheap second special gun. Personally, I am more in favor of the second cheap gun. Also, I don't see BC as troops having a big role in 5th given that they no longer have access to multiple special CC weapons and GH are now economical.

Has anyone confirmed whether the WGL was taken as a unit upgrade or if they are the same as now with us adding them to the units after the fact? I may be wrong on this but don't the sarges in standard SM units count towards the total models in the unit?

Also wondering if anyone has read the EXACT wording on the cover save ability provided by Njal and the Runepriests. Some people have already stated it but vehicles do not get cover they get "obscured". The wording on the CFF works it for vehicles to get the 4+, and I was just wondering how the wording looked in our codex by comparison. I would assume since the ability worked on vehicles per the FAQ it will still work on them now, but is it 4+ or 5+?

Can wolf guard terminators take special weapons?
EDIT: or chainfists?

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:And what's more we have the same hyperbolic over reaction to the perceived power level of EVERY new codex

Oh I beg to differ.

Hyperbole indeed.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Who cried the sky is falling when Guard came out? I seem to remember everyone waiting for something magical to arrive and then a resounding 'Meh' when it finally did.

I know I cried, but I can't remember if it was "sky falling" or tears of joy, by the time I finally got my copy months later, it was definitely, "Meh".

Anyone notice if Cyclones are SM style or DA/BA style or if chainfists made it in?

The Wolf Guard Terminator models have Chainfists. We've seen them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Wolf Guard Terminator models have Chainfists. We've seen them.

Doh, so we have, on the HF guy no less. I have heard that Cyclones are SM style also.

Lukas the Trickster - Blood Claw upgrade. His Special Rule is called "the last laugh", where on his death he and the model that killed him are removed then both players roll a D6. If the SW player rolls equal to or higher than their opponent, all models within Base to Base contact with Lukas (friend or foe) are removed.

Bolter fire and lasgun shots crisscrossed the once peaceful valley. Over this scene of carnage eagerly gazed the newly formed squad of Blood Claws who stood perched along the southern ridgeline. The squad’s sergeant, a member of the elite wolf guard, looked over at his pack and grimaced at their ill-controlled battle lust. With but a glance, he looked up at the moon that hung high above and took note of its pallid light that bathed the ground below. "Almost midnight," he muttered before turning his gaze down and to the west, along the ridge where the full strength of his wolf company was forming up to bring its terrifying strength to bear. His gaze lingered on his fellow pack mates before a brief distortion of his shadow, caught out of the corner of his eye, brought his attention back to his personal surrounding. Slowly he glanced skyward, his look of confusion quickly turning to dismay as he realized the light bearing down on his squad from above was no longer that of the moon’s, but from the mounted spotlight of an Emperor Class Titan. Quickly his mind raced to determine how such an immense war machine could have possibly escaped his keen notice. It was in his final moments that the answer dawned on him….”CREEE!.........”

Far to the south and along the plateau that bordered the valley, a lone imperial officer sat nestled in a wide verandah that overlooked the growing battle taking place beneath. At the sight of the opposing ridgeline exploding with violent force, a wide smile formed across his battle scarred face and he watched with unconcealed glee as the Titan’s plasma battery consumed the sheltered Space Marines in a blazing inferno. “Tactical Genius…Hurr… Hurr… Hurr”… the man chuckled as he leisurely rolled the massive cigar between his fingers. While continuing to survey the mounting damage to the opposing force, however, he could not help but noticed the glint of light reflecting off a minuscule metal surface adjacent to the Titan’s foot. Incredulous, the commander deftly focused his binoculars on the object that had caught his attention and then stared in amazement at his discovery of a single lone Wolf, seemingly gazing in the officer’s direction. The Space Marine, casually leaning against the Titan’s frame, wore a bewildering smile that appeared to mock the commander. Then, in horror, the officer watched as the Space Wolf exploded with a deafening roar. Upon the smoke clearing, a gasp escaped the lips of the officer as he surveyed the scattered hulk of the wrecked titan, and the two sole smoking boots that was all that remained of the snide Wolf. For several moments he stood silent and still, shocked and transfixed by the sudden and unexpected violence visited upon his prized war machine. Shock quickly turned to anger as the realization that the several months of planning he had painstakingly and deliberately undertaken had been wholly and swiftly undone by the actions of a sole marine. Ever so slowly he leaned forward, the priceless cigar being inadvertently crushed in his clenched hand as his body twisted in rage, and screamed “LUKASSSSS!”

wyomingfox wrote:... Ever so slowly he leaned forward, the priceless cigar being inadvertently crushed in his clenched hand as his body twisted in rage, and screamed “LUKASSSSS!”

A reasonable exchange rate I would say.

wyomingfox wrote:Then, in horror, the officer watched as the Space Wolf exploded with a deafening roar. Upon the smoke clearing, a gasp escaped the lips of the officer as he surveyed the scattered hulk of the wrecked titan, and the two sole smoking boots that was all that remained of the snide Wolf. For several moments he stood silent and still, shocked and transfixed by the sudden and unexpected violence visited upon his prized war machine. Shock quickly turned to anger as the realization that the several months of planning he had painstakingly and deliberately undertaken had been wholly and swiftly undone by the actions of a sole marine. Ever so slowly he leaned forward, the priceless cigar being inadvertently crushed in his clenched hand as his body twisted in rage, and screamed “LUKASSSSS!”

Very nice.

Although, Lukas shouldn't explode. The bomb in his chest is a Stasis Bomb, so he just "freezes" time in an area around himself.

I saw the sprue at my local gee-dub today, looks great. Probably build Space Wolves around marines I have from an old army.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:And what's more we have the same hyperbolic over reaction to the perceived power level of EVERY new codex

Oh I beg to differ.

Hyperbole indeed.

I'm not going to continue this argument but in my defence I took a few years out from playing 40k in the middle of 4th ed. I only got back into the game and the newscycle with the release of the ork codex. For all I know people ran around screaming "the sky is falling" when DA came out too.

I don't remember very much lamenting when the current standard space marine codex was in rumor phase. Just a whole lot of "Meh" and "MY CHAOS MARINES DON'T GET TO DO THAT THIS GAME SUCKS". No one much worried about the orks at the time either, as they weren't particularly hardcore in fourth edition. I remember a few souls fearing what they would be capable of with the rumored fifth edition changes though.

People rightly feared the guard codex, it's been a jawbreaker in the tournament scene since it splashed down, and it looks like they are probably right to fear this one too. It has everything it needs in the right places it needs them to be a power dex.

Do keep in mind that in the case of Marine Codex, we basically knew what was going to happen - Traits gone, lots of stuff from the Dark Angel Codex copypasta'd over to the new book. What we didn't expect was that it would be a better Codex than the Dark Angel one. And what I didn't expect would be the heavy emphasis on Special Characters (although that may have been a combination of naivety and me being in denial about getting a good and balanced Codex that didn't swing the pendulum like the world was ending).

For the Orks it was more a case of the Ork players being willing to take whatever they were given as long as it was different, as the other list was both so old and so hopeless.

MinMax wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:Then, in horror, the officer watched as the Space Wolf exploded with a deafening roar. Upon the smoke clearing, a gasp escaped the lips of the officer as he surveyed the scattered hulk of the wrecked titan, and the two sole smoking boots that was all that remained of the snide Wolf. For several moments he stood silent and still, shocked and transfixed by the sudden and unexpected violence visited upon his prized war machine. Shock quickly turned to anger as the realization that the several months of planning he had painstakingly and deliberately undertaken had been wholly and swiftly undone by the actions of a sole marine. Ever so slowly he leaned forward, the priceless cigar being inadvertently crushed in his clenched hand as his body twisted in rage, and screamed “LUKASSSSS!”

Very nice.

Although, Lukas shouldn't explode. The bomb in his chest is a Stasis Bomb, so he just "freezes" time in an area around himself.

Yeah, your right. I still find it more hillarious with his o so casual Komiczi style. That and I like the idea of a running spoof where he keeps showing up only to explode...kinda like Kenny at South Park

ShumaGorath wrote:I don't remember very much lamenting when the current standard space marine codex was in rumor phase. Just a whole lot of "Meh" and "MY CHAOS MARINES DON'T GET TO DO THAT THIS GAME SUCKS".

Oh please, there were many whining bouts about:

- Marines getting "free" heavy/assault weapons
- Marines getting "free" sergeant upgrades
- Storm Shields being 3+ Invulnerable against everything
- Shrike in general
- Vulkan in general
- The Redeemer
- Sternguard in general
- Vanguard in general (OH MY GOD MARINES CAN ASSAULT AFTER DEEP STRIKE)

The lamenting was, as is typical, of varying qualities, from the reasonable (e.g., 3+I Storm Shields are quite good), to the laughable (Vanguard), and failed to paint a particularly accurate picture of marines on the tabletop (with the exception of Vulkan's then and contained praise, although I still think he's overrated and don't see him a lot).

As I have Chaos, Marine, and Space Wolves armies dating back to late 3rd edition, my reading of all of the rumors so far gives me:

- Maw is a *very good* psychic power, but not game breaking
- None of the special characters are worth their points unless you build the entire list around them, and even then they're questionable
- Grey Hunters are now a really, really good Troops choice
- Wolfriders may be very, very good (still haven't seen a confirmation on my earlier question as to whether they're T5 or T4(5), if it's the former, they'll be very good, if the latter, only moderately good, remembering especially that the meta has shifted to the meltagun as the primary assault weapon over plasma, and as such, at T4(5) their extra wound is limited in value)

If I understand the HQ selection rules, to get two Maws in a list, you'd need to take a Rune Priest and Njal, which is a huge boatload of points.

Overall, though, "Meh". The codex is good, it's probably not game-breakingly good. Makes me think my Tacs are slightly overpriced, and I need to model up a lot of meltaguns on my SWs (as I last seriously played them in 4e, and as such they have plasma in the GH squads).

They are T5. Not 4(5).

Scottywan82 wrote:They are T5. Not 4(5).

Nifty. Do they have power weapons standard? Options for Frost Blades (along with the previously listed Power Fist and Thunder Hammer)? Any other wolf-named wargear to further differentiate models?

These guys are going to be pretty rough.

As I have Chaos, Marine, and Space Wolves armies dating back to late 3rd edition, my reading of all of the rumors so far gives me:

- Maw is a *very good* psychic power, but not game breaking
- None of the special characters are worth their points unless you build the entire list around them, and even then they're questionable
- Grey Hunters are now a really, really good Troops choice
- Wolfriders may be very, very good (still haven't seen a confirmation on my earlier question as to whether they're T5 or T4(5), if it's the former, they'll be very good, if the latter, only moderately good, remembering especially that the meta has shifted to the meltagun as the primary assault weapon over plasma, and as such, at T4(5) their extra wound is limited in value)

If I understand the HQ selection rules, to get two Maws in a list, you'd need to take a Rune Priest and Njal, which is a huge boatload of points.

Overall, though, "Meh". The codex is good, it's probably not game-breakingly good. Makes me think my Tacs are slightly overpriced, and I need to model up a lot of meltaguns on my SWs (as I last seriously played them in 4e, and as such they have plasma in the GH squads).

Don't underestimate how amazing blood claws are as a troops choice. Not having to split duties in troops deployment and squads is an incredible boon. Terminators having access to drop pods is also utterly terrifying. Assured, accurate, first turn assault terminator drops will be devastating. Especially with the combination of close combat weaponry and shooty guns. The versatility of the tactical squad has always been a shortfall, it pays points for close range weaponry and long range simultaneously, while at the same time being forced to move to take territory, without being particularly good at close combat. Having functional, more durable, and good long fangs, backing up a harsh core of close range firepower and very respectable close combat ability is going to be a dealbreaker. Simply ignoring the stranger units like wolf riders and the special characters, the armies core, it's troops and guns, are spectacular.

Standard Rune Priests and Wolf Priests have had their initiative dropped to 4 in the new Dex. The Special Characters are higher. Basic Wolf Lords and Wolf Guard Battle Leaders are still 5 though. Bjorn is Init 3

Meh, my characters aren't the killing machines. My marines are

I agree that the core of the army will be very strong if people focus on it. But I also think that a lot of people like their toys and that it is a great list for it. In fact it makes my standard marines playable again since now my squads can have termie sergeants and all of my sergeants can have something other just PW and PF.

As a person who loves competitive 40k, and a person who prides himself on having levelheaded responses to rumors, I'd like to weigh in.

This is mostly a message that Space Wolves aren't going to break the game. It seems some of their rules and abilities are good, and they are going to be a fine competitive army, but I haven't seen one thing that is over the top.

Keep this concept in mind when you are thinking about close combat marines. Whenever you play against tau or IG, any single point you spent to increase your close combat ability is a point wasted. Even your most basic troop can beat nearly everything they have blindfolded, and so you've made an investment in "win more". That is a balancing force.

I'm going to go unit by unit so this will be long. But I'll keep the comments on them brief.

HQ

Wolf Lord/WGBL - an expensive independent character that is only good for CC, in the context of 10 capacity rhinos and drop pods, I couldn't see ever wanting this guy except for expansion games or other 'fun' moments.

Wolf Priest - Same thing here. Seems more affordable, and has more of a unit-wide buff effect which is superior, but with all of the sagas he has access to basically making him better in CC, and the fact that he is an IDable, IC. I'm not really impressed.

Rune Priest - Seems quite excellent, ork big mek kustom force field combined with a space marine librarian with a beefed up psychic hood. This is an excellent character. I would expect this to be the most commonly taken character.
But before I move on, lets talk about jaws. On this site and others, there is lamenting and gnashing of teeth, and it is ridiculous. On Bell of Lost Souls, this comment was made. "Jaws will be the end of assault terminators." Lets look at some math. Assault terminators fail their initiative tests on only 5s and 6s. So, if you can actually maneuver jaws to hit all 5 termies, it has the EXACT same mathematical chances to wipe out the unit as a demolisher cannon. (and, incidentally, the same range). Against an opponent with any awareness at all, jaws will not hurt horde units any more than a thunderfire cannon. High wound count, low initiative monstrous creatures will need to respect the power. But keep in mind its range. There will be no 'flank shot' that picks up multiple MCs if you deploy and maneuver well. It will hit one. Almost all demons will have their decently high initiative with the -1 and have a very good chance to avoid it. Carnifex seem to be vulnerable to this power, but as their book is a quick 3 months away, I think we can hold judgement a bit. The rest of the psychic powers are complete non-factors. Realize that you are giving up null zone, gate of infinity, and vortex.

ELITE - an excellent slot for this army. unfortunately it is DENSELY packed with desirables. You can only have 3...

Dreadnought - as far as I've read, the only 'space wolf' upgrade that the dread can take is saga of majesty which is seriously dull. Otherwise, these are the good old fashioned dreadnoughts, plenty to like about them, but nothing different from vanilla.

Wolf Guard - Seems like a highly customizable, powerful unit. I haven't looked under the hood too much on these guys, but I believe my current favorite termie load out is 5 termies, 5 frost blades and 5 storm shields. Better than assault terminators and more expensive than assault terminators. You can make them bigger and scarier, as that price starts to scale up, they'll lose more and more of their power, and start to become a real "timmy" unit. As far as the 'build your own sarge' concept. I think we all need to remember the balancing force built into the 10 man rhino. You can have a choppy unit with a moderately respectable number of power fist attacks and one melta, or you can have 2 meltas... or you can go on foot. I can't imagine passing on the free second special weapon for grey hunters, and as far as blood claws are concerned, well. I will get to that later.

Wolf Scouts - were NOT game breaking before, and they've been palpably nerfed. Enjoy 1 meltagun instead of 2, and enjoy occasionally not getting to choose your side. Still fieldable, but no one should be freaking out.

Lone Wolf - I am really excited about these. I am really hoping that you get a certain allotment of them and they don't take up a slot. But even in taking up a slot, they are a real nice MSU KP abusers. I'd be interested to see if they can reliably down walkers. It looks like its more of a 50/50 if they take beast slayer. But 50/50 is pretty nice. I would certainly take 2-3 guardsman marbo if he didn't cough up a kill point. Although these guys will likely have game impact, and are points efficient, they won't have a 'metagame' level impact. They simply don't 'do' enough and you can't take enough of them.

TROOPS

grey hunters - I like these a lot. Using an apples to oranges comparison, I would certainly trade a leadership 9 choppy sergeant, combat tactics, combat squads and a free heavy weapon for choppy wargear, counter-attack, a second discounted special weapon, and acute senses. But in the context of the codeces, I wouldn't want to lose a heavy weapon in vanilla space marines. They are different. They do different things. Leadership 9 is nice. But with ATSKNF, you don't use leadership to regroup, and in many cases you will actually want to fall back. Vanilla get around this with combat tactics, but space wolves can use their lower natural leadership to fall back in order to shoot whatever CC monster has charged them. I wouldn't ever add a WG to this unit, 2x meltaguns with all that choppiness and special rules package makes a fine, transport hunter/killer of soft units that ride in transports. For instance, grey hunters beat tactical squads on the charge, when charged and in ongoing combats. Thats good enough for me. Excellent troop choice.

blood claws - for a troop, blood claws aren't terrible, but if anyone has been paying attention to black templars recently, they will realize that having a bucket of strength 4 attacks that don't ignore armor and don't magically punch through fast moving armor, isn't necessarily "devastating". This is another unit that currently exists in the game, isn't EVER talked about, and has been MASSIVELY nerfed. Going from 3 power fists to 1, stacked on top of the unchoppiness of power fists. Now we are looking at a unit that without outside help can only generate 3 strength 8 attacks on the charge and 1 strength 8 attack after charging. Really? If I have a dreadnought, I'm aiming it right for this unit. Add a WG for another pair of attacks, put your rune priest in here, then it looks a lot better. But I could imagine a weaken resolve launched from outside of 24" would constantly push back this unit all game. One of the two lashes would get through and throw them around, or a superior 'real cc unit' would charge, win, and keep winning. A decent, fieldable troop, if the proper additional investment is made. Land raider I'm looking at you.

FAST ATTACK - Saying it now. The space wolf key to winning.

fenrisian wolves - Not as good as the rarely ever seen flesh hounds of khorne, not as good as the never seen rough riders. i wouldn't expect to see these.

skyclaws - non-scoring blood claws. Not as fast as blood claws in a rhino, jump infantry, joining the ranks of storm boys, assault marines, raptors and all other, not quite good enough units that can jump really far.

swiftclaws - closer... if only they were scoring. Ask CSM players if choppy bike units can win against dedicated CC units. They are a decent flex unit, shoot for a while then charge, but without having scoring status, I feel they would need to be a lot more dynamic to be worth the points.

land speeder - excellent top tier unit. Also, quite necessary for the short ranged choppy space wolves. But nothing we haven't seen before.

thunderwolf cavalry - making an apples to oranges comparison, these guys cost 10 points more than bloodcrushers, for a loss of power armor and weapons and a point of toughness gain. But the comparison isn't valid between codeces. These guys to me look quite good. Not traditionally insta-killable, strength 5 rending many, many attack will trash armor, 12" charge range is fast and threatening. I am unaware of their equipment options but I know they have some, any additional equipment options will make them even better. I think this is an excellent unit.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Land raider and variants - top tier competitive choice, made even more so by the power increase from assault terminator to wolf guard.

predator - excellent flexible HS choice. But also nothing new.

whirlwind - as 'meh' as it is in vanilla.

vindicator - as 'meh' as it is in vanilla.

Long Fangs - Just making them cheaper and giving them more weapons does not suddenly make them amazing. They are non-scoring, move or shoot infantry models. Vanilla space marines can already split fire, its called combat squads... yes it is much more expensive to have 10 marines, but that also buys you more ablative wounds, and a signum. I don't hate this unit. I can't think of anything better for any marine to put in a bastion in a plantestrike defense, but for a real deal competitive 40k game, they are a single shot from my leman russ executioner away from being picked up off the table. I wished they could have gotten relentless... i would have LOVED to see a drop pod with 5 MM LFs land next to a mech line and walk out and unload with split fire, alas they didn't 'pull the trigger'.

SPECIAL CHARACTERS

Logan Grimnar - Not nearly as fighty as the italian stallion (calgar) but he picked up eternal warrior to make him a passable expensive fighter. You trade master strategist for the superior 'choose a USR' every turn, and the wolf guard as troops option, which makes him a very usable character, but just like Calgar, he isn't going to be sought after for 1750 and smaller games. Thats not a dig at him, just a truth. he is just fine, nothing mind shattering.

Ragnar Blackmane - EXPENSIVE. His howl is good. But in the context of mech-hammer 40k, mass amount of strength 5 is no substitute for a single well positioned MMHF speeder, period. He fights better than a WGBL, has the valuable howl rule, has a couple upgrades that can be puchased by WGBL anyway, 4+ invuln and a saga.. the only other thing he gets is a +d3 attacks on the charge. Does anyone remember crushing claws in the nid codex? 33% of the time with regular grey hunters, this power does NOTHING. With blood claws 33% of the time it does nothing, and 33% of the time it actually gives you LESS attacks than you would have had without ragnar. Out of the current metagame context, i would say he was a good IC. The way competitive games play out, any point of HQ not spent on a rune priest is probably a point wasted.

Njal Stormcaller - I can stomach the cost, having all 6 powers means very little to me, as there is only 2 that I have any interest in. The 3+ rune "hood" has serious value. That makes him interesting. But the storm is his real feature. I think it is good, with more control by the player it would be AMAZING. But it has a problem and that problem is 'possessed syndrome' Say its turn 1 and you've got him in position against an IG gunline to really hurt their shooting. But instead of getting -1 BS to all enemies like you thought you were going to get, you get 'all enemies are in difficult ground'. Then as the game moves forward against a CSM player, there is a plague marine rhino dashing for an objective, getting that strength 9 hit on the rhino would be fantastic, but what you get instead is the morale test for the entirely fearless army. I'm not saying you won't get the right ability at the right time, and I'm not saying the power doesn't have value, I'm just saying that Njal isn't a "must take" nor is he somehow game breaking.

Ulrik the slayer - this poor guy just got copypasted. He can't possibly be 'broken'

Canis wolfborn - He really shreds hordes. Thats great. For take on all comers, he doesn't touch tanks. Making a unit that isn't good a troop (but not even giving it scoring status) doesn't really blow me away either.

Bjorn the Fellhanded - Costs as much as 2 ironclads, is probably as survivable as 2 iron clads, but doesn't put out the same output as 2 ironclads... Get him killed and you have a new responsibility, and gain fearless, which with ATSKNF built in, is a marginal bonus. If you wanted to buy ironclads for wolves, here you go... he is fieldable, but not even close to metagame changing.

Lukas the Trickster - Unit upgrade, I'm assuming not an IC, which helps his cause. He is expensive for a unit upgrade. Really makes that unit a lynchpin, and unfortunately, that unit is blood claws. I like his defensive ability to force re-rolls, the stasis bomb will work only if you can do the charging, or if you have positioned lukas masterfully well. If you are charged, a savvy opponent will make sure his 'abbaddon' is in base to base elsewhere, and that he has contact lukas with another model. Even then, with the dice falling the wrong way, you can lose more of your own models than enemy models to the stasis bomb. Ultimately, You will see less and less of this model, when more and more people realize that their trickster powered blood claw squad costs as much as a blood claw squad AND a grey hunter squad, and the trickster is having a hard time making his "trick" work.

Arjak Rockfist - I don't think i need to go into it too much with this guy. Solid. Excellent unit upgrade character, makes the wolf guard even better at killing tanks with strength 10 t hammer and a strength 10 ap1 6" range shot. He is also quite pricey, he will cost you another grey hunter squad, but as he is a stand in for a 63 point wolf guard, that mitigates the cost a bit. As good as he is, he is an upgrade character, that merely makes one unit better. he doesn't break the game, he is just good.




Ok, so how are space wolves different in the eyes of a competitive player?

They have rune priests, which are a really great IC, with 2 really nice powers and a great psychic defense. They can use Njal for a more impactful rune priest.

They have wolf guard that they can customize to their exact specifications, and a land raider to put them in. Arjak makes them better. they can even be troops choices in larger games.

They have the annoying and potentially dangerous lone wolves floating around the battlefield.

They have the slightly more affordable and more straightforward grey hunters.

They have the very respectable, hard to kill, and dangerous to infantry, MCs and non-land raider non-walker vehicles, thunderwolf cavalry. they are very vulnerable to dreadnoughts and don't do much against rear armor 14.


Lets do one more apples to oranges comparison... what did they lose that is universally considered competitive to the vanillas.

Master of the forge with conversion beamer, Vulkan, gate of infinity, null zone, vortex of doom, bike captain, company command squad on bikes

200 point thunderhammer terminators

troop multi-meltas, troop missile launchers, troop combat squads, combat tactics, 12 capacity drop pods, bike troops, telion

squadrons of attack bikes

thunderfire cannon, heavy support dreadnoughts


It is pretty clear to me that, just like vanilla marines, they are going to do very well competitively in the hands of a skilled player. But also just like imperial guard and space marines, there is nothing game breaking or devastating in the book. I don't see anything that will make me adjust my competitive 1750 IG list. And that is amazing. I am going to assume that when Nids hit, there will be some serious shifting around of my list. This codex just isn't giving me that scare.

If you are a space wolf player, enjoy the overall increase in power level and self contained easy to read new codex. If you are not, have no fear.

Heah, Shep. Thanks for the analysis