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Lord Ragnarok from B&C wrote:

Slashgod from warseer wrote:Ok,as promised i tell you now what Phill Kelly talked to me.

I asked him about Björn and the rumour about his AV14. He responded that he couldn´t tell,but Björn would be the most survivable Cybot in Game.
We also talked in general about Space Wolves and he said that Space Wolves would have extrem stats and some nice special rules but would pay with a lot of points. "You will be always outnumbered".
Logan Grimnar isn´t a fighting character,he is more like Creed, he gives you some special abilities like standing near a Long Fangs and saying you become tank hunter. He will also give even imperial guard special rules,because he is an amazing leader.
If you want a close combat monster you should choose Ragnar,he is young and berserker like.
All of the Special characters will be priced high over Gazhgul Thraka.

I also asked him about Wulfen and 13. company.
I was a little bit shocked when he said that Wulfen won´t come back as a unit. He wanted them more mysterious. You can still fill in some wulfen,but not as a unit costing 18 Points.

And last,i asked him about the Sagas. He confirmed that Sagas will give the complete army boni,not just a unit.

That´s all what i can remember, I hope GD uk will reveal more.

sorry for my bad english,but it isn´t my mother tongue

Sounds like Space Wolves are going to be Movie Marines.

Probably good times for people who like messing around with Pre-Heresy stuff.

I hate to say it but it sounds kind of stupid. They have to be different I guess. If they want to do something so weird where is Inquisition and LatD?

All of this just to make Long Fangs usable again.

Should this be in News/Rumors, not actually being about Space Hulk?

Hrm, the pay alot of points sounds ominous. I am hoping that is doesn't mean 20 point Grey Hunters :-/

But that's how much they are now. Tactical marine plus counter attack plus CCW should cost....? How much? 4 points for CCW and counter attack is not too bad, really. I'd prefer it were cheaper, but I can understand mostly.

I really like the sound of these rumours. I've not played as Space Wolves before, however I have decided to collect them when they are re-released in Oct. They appeal to me as I view them as vikings in space. Therefore it is fitting with the viking sagas that they should always be outnumbered, the few against the many (I love the film The 13th Warrior which is a case in point). Plus we all know they are going to be hard as nails so being limited in numbers aint gonna be a prob.
Liking the idea behind Ragnar and Logan too.

Really, it sounds like this may be the first loyalist marine codex that's actually different enough from Codex: Space Marines to warrant a separate codex.

Of course, it's also sounding like SW are going to play pretty significantly different than they used to...

But that's how much they are now. Tactical marine plus counter attack plus CCW should cost....? How much? 4 points for CCW and counter attack is not too bad, really. I'd prefer it were cheaper, but I can understand mostly.

It's a bit more complex than that.

Normal marines come out to 17 points per model if you max out freebies (take a full Tactical Squad, free weapon upgrades).

Chaos marines come out to 18 points per model if similarly equipped (10 marines, champ upgrade, flamer and HB) for trading ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Combat Tactics for +1 Ld and (effectively) +1 A. Not a terribly good deal, mind you, but they do get a bit more flexibility in unit construction, and perhaps more importantly were written prior to changes in the costing formulae for various units (e.g., compare costs of the identical Predators, and compare Raptors to Assault Marines). You can knock that down to 16.5 per model if you exclude the champ from the Chaos squad, and forgo the +1 Ld. Of course, Marines are forced to take their sergeant upgrade (which is, of course, factored in to their cost), but Chaos is more likely to take advantage of it by putting a special weapon on their champ.

Given that I don't think anyone is seriously expecting SW to get Combat Squads or Combat Tactics, Chaos Marines are probably a pretty good baseline for Grey Hunter costs. If anything, they'll be cheaper, just as unit pricing seems to have slid a bit for most things since the Chaos codex was written.

That is, of course, assuming that Grey Hunters stay somewhat the same. As it is, GH are 17 points per model with just BP/CCW; SM currently get Bolter, BP, Frag and Krak grenades for their 17 points per model while Chaos get Bolter, BP, CCW, Frag and Krak for their 18ish. I'd be shocked if they got more expensive without getting significantly better rules.

If we're expecting a Grey Hunter to have a standard marine statline with Bolter/BP/CCW/Frag/Krak, ATSKNF, Ld 8 and Counterattack, they aren't worth *much* more than a standard marine -- Counterattack is probably as good for a short-to-medium-ranged combat squad (as that's what SW are; they're not pure assault specialists) as Combat Tactics is for a resilient-and-biased-towards-shooting squad, leaving you to compare the value of Combat Squads (to a shooty squad) vs +1A (to a short-ranged squad).

All in all, I don't think GH would be noticeably undercosted at the same price as tactical marines; in any case, they may be worth a point per model more, but anything more and I'd call them overcosted. Of course, the real question in pricing is how much their weapon upgrades cost and how many they get per squad -- something that's likely to more than eat any pricing difference between GH and tacticals anyway.

Uhm...

If you are comparing Grey Hunters naked against naked CSM's, then the CSM's are 15 points a piece.

If you are comparing a ten man CSM squad with 2x specials, and a power fist champion to a similiarly equipped squad of grey hunters, then the Grey Hunters will most likely be more than 17 points a piece.

Yeah, I have to go with whitedragon on this one. Your math is VERY fuzzy. Even making the assumption of a ten man squad, ten tactical marines =/= ten grey hunters. Not as a baseline. You're far better off using the additional model points cost versus the cost of a single grey hunter.

15 points for CSM, 16 for SM.

I would say it's fair to swap Combat Tactics for Counter attack, in light of how combat tactics is swapped for lots of other abilities in Codex: SM. ATSKNF stays. Add a CCW, and I would expect to pay 17-18 points for a grey hunter.

I know this runs contradictory to what I said earlier, but I had not considered the combat tactics rule. I don't imagine there will be any cost difference for having combat squads or not, since that tends to be a points-neutral ability.

whitedragon wrote:Uhm...

If you are comparing Grey Hunters naked against naked CSM's, then the CSM's are 15 points a piece.

If you are comparing a ten man CSM squad with 2x specials, and a power fist champion to a similiarly equipped squad of grey hunters, then the Grey Hunters will most likely be more than 17 points a piece.

Er, the point of that comparison was to try to more accurately compare CSM costs to SM costs, as SMs cost per model isn't particularly easy to figure without a lot of conditions and/or hand-waving. Specifically, to make some sort of educated guess how much a marine with +1A is worth. And Power Fist pricing never entered in to it.

Assuming Grey Hunters have a marine statline, Bolter/BP/CCW/Frag/Krak, ATSKNF and Counterattack, I don't think a squad of ten with two basic specials and an unupgraded sergeant is worth significantly more than the 170 points you'd pay for the same amount of vanilla marines. A fair price is probably in the 175-185 range, instead of the 170 for marines. I think 20 points per model is overcosted even with that level of equipment; Counterattack and adding the CCW isn't worth that much more than Combat Squads and Combat Tactics.

If they get Combat Tactics (or some other extra rule, e.g., Stubborn) all bets are off.

I'm really not sure what to predict for costs -- I seem to historically undervalue non-power weapon attacks compared to GW (as I think CSM are overcosted compared to SM currently, and the extra attack vs. superior SM morale rules is the main difference), but at the same time the overall design of recent codices seems to be on a downward trend when it comes to troop points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scottywan82 wrote:Yeah, I have to go with whitedragon on this one. Your math is VERY fuzzy. Even making the assumption of a ten man squad, ten tactical marines =/= ten grey hunters. Not as a baseline. You're far better off using the additional model points cost versus the cost of a single grey hunter.

15 points for CSM, 16 for SM.

It's fuzzy because to have any accurate comparison of costs, you have to take more things into account these days.

You can't directly compare 15 points for a CSM to 16 for a SM since that cost for the SM has advantages other than the model itself built into it -- you get more than ten loyalist marines when you buy ten loyalist marines. You get exactly ten CSMs when you buy ten CSMs.

Comparing squads with unupgraded sergeants is, imo, the most fair way to figure values -- SM are forced to take the sergeant, CSM and SW aren't but are more likely to want to take one (speaking as someone who plays Chaos, SW, and SM, as SM, I'd skip the sergeant upgrade if I could; my squads are shooty, so I'm not as interested in the special close combat weapon, and since I have ATSKNF I want to fail most morale checks I'm asked to make, so the sergeant's Ld bonus is largely useless (and actively detrimental if I'm taking Vulkan and thus lose Combat Tactics)).

I would say it's fair to swap Combat Tactics for Counter attack, in light of how combat tactics is swapped for lots of other abilities in Codex: SM. ATSKNF stays. Add a CCW, and I would expect to pay 17-18 points for a grey hunter.

I know this runs contradictory to what I said earlier, but I had not considered the combat tactics rule. I don't imagine there will be any cost difference for having combat squads or not, since that tends to be a points-neutral ability.

I'm not sure what we'll end up paying. If we end up with GH as discussed above, I suspect 10x GH with two flamers (or equivalent upgrades) and an unupgraded Wolf Guard will weigh in just under 200 points.

Now, if we end up with other special rules, all bets are off. This includes if Wolf Guard get dramatically more powerful (as has been rumored), or the Sagas have significant whole-army effects (as has been rumored). So everything's really all up in the air.

But Grey Hunters are significantly overcosted now, and 20 points for a GH as discussed is overcosted still. IMO, at least.

Lowinor wrote:
You can't directly compare 15 points for a CSM to 16 for a SM since that cost for the SM has advantages other than the model itself built into it -- you get more than ten loyalist marines when you buy ten loyalist marines. You get exactly ten CSMs when you buy ten CSMs.

Comparing squads with unupgraded sergeants is, imo, the most fair way to figure values -- SM are forced to take the sergeant, CSM and SW aren't but are more likely to want to take one (speaking as someone who plays Chaos, SW, and SM, as SM, I'd skip the sergeant upgrade if I could; my squads are shooty, so I'm not as interested in the special close combat weapon, and since I have ATSKNF I want to fail most morale checks I'm asked to make, so the sergeant's Ld bonus is largely useless (and actively detrimental if I'm taking Vulkan and thus lose Combat Tactics)).

Chaos Marine Squads cannot be compared directly to Marine squads because they are much more flexible, and depend heavily on what else is in your army. They can be enhanced by Fabius Bile, given Icon's (which also act as teleport homers) and they have higher leadership which can be situationally better than regular Marines in the case of shooting casaulties and pinning tests. And that's just for starters.

This is the reason GW says they don't look at point costs across codicies.

Thanks for the new info. I'm pretty happy with the changes, if only to move them further away from the standard codex SM.

But I wish the preview WD would get released already. I really want to pick up some bikes for my space-woofs, but don't know how they'll fit in with all the upcoming changes.

Wulfen as unit attachments? Yes, I would like more MEQ Werewolves in my squads...

Scottywan82 wrote:But that's how much they are now. Tactical marine plus counter attack plus CCW should cost....? How much? 4 points for CCW and counter attack is not too bad, really. I'd prefer it were cheaper, but I can understand mostly.

Except that is not how SM now work. SM get a free upgrade ala "combat tactics" which can be changed out for "fleet", "infiltrate". "stubborn", twin linked weapons, or ect, depending on the SC you buy. Counter Attack would simply be the "free" replacement for "combat tactics". So if GH end up costing 20 pts a pop, I would expect them to get alot more.

I remember hearing rumblings of the GH getting 2 base attacks and still being unable to have both pistols/bolters. I don't see how this would equate to a cost that much more. It is just the only thing I can remember reading through these rumors threads that effected them.

So far I am loving the rumors about Space Wolves. They were the first Army I ever had, behind Eldar that is. I have several True (or Art) Scale marines who are eagerly awaiting October to become Space Wolves.

I am also interested in the Wolves being limited or smaller in number. I love Space Marine stories that have a few against many, much like Brotherhood of the Snake by Dan Abnett. And the Space wolf graphic novel. SO I am extremely excited by that.

I kind of wished space marines were more like the "movie" marines...(But more balanced)

Just my own humble opinion.

Yeah I'll probably get some. What's another army.

I would like to see 13 point Blood Claws.

With the rumored changes of WS4 and gaining Furious Charge over Zerker I highly doubt they will remain at the cost they are now. I honestly dunno how they are going to justify not giving an army cheap troop choices in a game that 2/3 of the standard RB missions are node based. I would'nt be hurt if the rumors about them turned out to be false and they remained as is.

I've been liking most of what I've read here, still, I can't wait until the 'dex is released.

Sucks to be a 13th Co. player. Come and join all us LatD and Ulthwe Strike Force players.

And this:

He responded that he couldn´t tell

I am getting increasingly more rage-filled by GW. Why not tell? Why not hype your products with information and teases rather than keeping your lips shut? How does keeping everyone in the dark help you?

This is the first Space Wolf Codex since 3rd Edition - we've had two edition changes since then - so this is a big deal for both the game and for Woof players. Why haven't we been getting previews online and WD for the past couple of months? Where's the designer dairy? Where's Phil upselling his great new Codex?

No, he has to remain silent and only give cryptic hints.

GW are a bunch of slowed monkey fethers who wouldn't know what 'good business sense' was even if it came right up and RAPED THEM.

I have to agree with HBMC. I loved it when GW would reveal all sorts of things during their Games Day season! Back when I was a red shirt we would get all sorts of rumors which helped to generate positive buzz about the various games, but lately I don't even bother with Games Day news, cause most of the time, there is nothing to report.

It would have been cool to see the sprue or some different wolf guys something at least!!

H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW are a bunch of slowed monkey fethers who wouldn't know what 'good business sense' was even if it came right up and RAPED THEM.

Really? We're eagerly sucking up every crumb of info that drops from their table, writing 10 page threads on even the slightest whiff of a rumour. Speculation is doing a great job of fueling anticipation, and every time a "well-connected" GW staff member so much as farts we all yip like Pavlov's dogs.

I'd say they have a very ing good grasp on marketing to this audience.

I've been thinking that GW's current policies of withholding information to the last minute may be an overreaction to earlier codexes being leaked prior to release. It's damned annoying and understandable from that point of view, but still problematic from a business standpoint.
As a long time wolf player what I want most is concrete information, what's changing? how much do these Sagas cost and do they give more than access to universal special rules(perhaps FNP, etc)?. I accept that the army I have been running will change, that's a given, but I'd like to buy things in anticipation of the coming changes and I currently can't do that because I don't know for sure what they are. I guess there current policies due allow the internet to do what it does best, page after page of posts and discussion, some civil, some not, but all largely irrelevant because it's spun off from some tiny fragment of a rumor that may not end up being true at all.

wow, reading that through makes me sound like a bitter old man...

H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW are a bunch of slowed monkey fethers who wouldn't know what 'good business sense' was even if it came right up and RAPED THEM.

To pull that off you'd have to be some kind of... tactical genius...

Grimhowl wrote:I've been thinking that GW's current policies of withholding information to the last minute may be an overreaction to earlier codexes being leaked prior to release. It's damned annoying and understandable from that point of view, but still problematic from a business standpoint.
As a long time wolf player what I want most is concrete information, what's changing? how much do these Sagas cost and do they give more than access to universal special rules(perhaps FNP, etc)?. I accept that the army I have been running will change, that's a given, but I'd like to buy things in anticipation of the coming changes and I currently can't do that because I don't know for sure what they are. I guess there current policies due allow the internet to do what it does best, page after page of posts and discussion, some civil, some not, but all largely irrelevant because it's spun off from some tiny fragment of a rumor that may not end up being true at all.

wow, reading that through makes me sound like a bitter old man...

So your saying that you think GW is worried the codex will be leaked and downloaded for free on the internet? What's the point of withholding the info then? Because, come launch day, that codex is for free on the internet. People who download it before it's out might actually go out and buy the codex then.

But I know 4chan (/tg/ specifically) will have it, as soon as a copy is available. Maybe even sooner.

Mastiff wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW are a bunch of slowed monkey fethers who wouldn't know what 'good business sense' was even if it came right up and RAPED THEM.

Really? We're eagerly sucking up every crumb of info that drops from their table, writing 10 page threads on even the slightest whiff of a rumour. Speculation is doing a great job of fueling anticipation, and every time a "well-connected" GW staff member so much as farts we all yip like Pavlov's dogs.

I'd say they have a very ing good grasp on marketing to this audience.

I disagree. If GW had marketing talent, they'd have us:

eagerly sucking up every crumb of info that drops from their table, writing 10 page threads on even the slightest whiff of a rumour

WITHOUT irritating the living hell out of us... (which is what they used to do before all this slowed secrecy.)
I'm totally with H.B. on this.

To pull that off you'd have to be some kind of... tactical genius...

CREEEEEEEEEEED!!!!

Typeline wrote:But I know 4chan (/tg/ specifically) will have it, as soon as a copy is available. Maybe even sooner.

I dunno man. The Guard Codex took a while to show up as a PDF. Took at a week or so after it's release to show up. That was annoying as the Chaos and Ork ones showed up before they were released and the Marine one was very quick.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Typeline wrote:But I know 4chan (/tg/ specifically) will have it, as soon as a copy is available. Maybe even sooner.

I dunno man. The Guard Codex took a while to show up as a PDF. Took at a week or so after it's release to show up. That was annoying as the Chaos and Ork ones showed up before they were released and the Marine one was very quick.

I'm sure there will be plenty of fa/tg/uys putting the woofs codex up to rage about it with other people as quickly as possible.

Or it could be like the Eberron player's guide for 4e. People would start thread after thread begging people to scan it. No scans for like two weeks. But you win some and you loose some.

Regardless I will not be paying for the codex until I know it is worth my money.

Typeline wrote:

I'm sure there will be plenty of fa/tg/uys putting the woofs codex up to rage about it with other people as quickly as possible.

I see what you did there.