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I don't dislike the designs, but they are way out of proportion (even allowing for "heroic scale".) They appear to have gorilla-arms.


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The RT-era Squats were predominantly biker/IG looking.
For 2nd Edition, they were going to take them in much more of a "Space Dwarf" direction, as these unreleased figures show.

Wow those are pretty freaking similar to real dwarfs. Just with pipes/Boltguns and miniature midgeterminators

Yeah, just felt a need to dig up the pics since I kept reading people go on about how Squats were "only" bikers/IG-alikes. Especially as Mantic have ex-GW people on board, I'm sure any who spent a lot of time there would have been privvy to a lot more than I have seen.

What was Ronnie's role in GW, anyway?

"For New Orzammar!" And the Dwarves carve a space empire to rival any other! It will definitely make for something a tad different as these new "Forgefathers" will be using some new ideas mixed in. Stubborn fighters with their weapons for shooting and close combat mixed in will be alright, I do not see that big a problem with making them useful in any games I would play.

lord marcus wrote:They are not "following in GW's wake".

Mantic are parasites. They could not exist without GW.

That seems more than a bit unnecessary...

GW are parasites. They couldn't exist without tolkien,

I know they're different. My point is that why would I play a different rule set just to push around more space orks and other slightly modified 40k races? Do something exciting and new out of the gate.

Well, companies that do something different often get to hear: Bah, it is not as big or similar enough to 40K!

Also, I can´t stand the 40 rules anymore, they are to bloated. But I want to use my 5000+ Tau and Elysian armies, so I really look forward to using them with the Warpath rules. And myn folks think in similar directions.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Also, I can´t stand the 40 rules anymore, they are to bloated. But I want to use my 5000+ Tau and Elysian armies, so I really look forward to using them with the Warpath rules. And myn folks think in similar directions.

You know that 40k in 1st and 2nd edition were WAY MORE bloated, right?

And that 40k is just finally recovering from the 3rd edition restart of the rules system?

And that 5th edition is the best edition, codex diversity wise (except for you CSM, you got 4th edition'd)?

It sounds like the one that's bloated is you. Two 5000 point armies?

plastictrees wrote:

Eilif wrote:

plastictrees wrote:
Again, Squats had that element as well. If you're not familiar with the directions Squats were taken in that doesn't make Mantic more original.

That would be an incorrect assumption. I'm familiar with virtually the entire range. From the classic parka and hat wearing stuties that most folks associate with squats, to the mad biker shorties, to the tubby, power armored, Space-marine'ish dwarves and dreads that I can only guess that one might relate to the mantic range regardless of the fact that the armor design is completely different (rounded and bulby vs angular with sharp edges).

It seems inevitable that any fantasy-dwarf-in-space would bring assertions from you that they are a Squat copy. Thus, I guess we're going to have to just disagree on this one.

That would be based on me constantly leaping into all the fantasy-dwarf-in-space threads and declaring them to be copies of Squats? I've already said that I don't consider Hasslefrees Grymmmmm to be Squat rip offs. Mantic chose to develop their dwarves in space to tie closely with where GW was taking them in Epic and the early 3rd edition concepts so that they could appeal to the people that wanted Squats back.

I guess I don't see why my assertion is contentious. They're clearly making Squats for people that miss Squats. They're packaging them with Orcs for people that want different Orc options and that's the flagship of their new sci-fi TTG. That part isn't a value judgment. It's just clearly what they are doing.
Why people feel the need to then throw their hands in the air and start declaring Mantic to be wildly original, oh, and GW totally ripped of Tolkein, and also everything is derivative of everything else man, is beyond me.


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lord marcus wrote:They are not "following in GW's wake".

Mantics games play extremely differently to any of GW's games.

At least read the last few pages of the thread if you're going to jump in.

lord marcus wrote:Mantics models may have some ascetically similar qualities, but when the world already has established archetypes for many concepts (space dwarves, for example) there is really no way of saying any particular design is original.

Ah yes, the long established archetype of the fantasy nordic space dwarf. Who can say where in this great melting pot of ideas that notion sprang from. How can you "own" an idea anyway right?

I did read the thread.

It is not about "owning" an idea, its that the idea already exists as a preexisting archetype that has been shown favor by many over the years and has popularity.


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plastictrees wrote:

I appreciate that anyone with a mantic advert in their sig thinks that any example of something existing ever means that GW is evil. Nevertheless the existence of Dark Elves/Dwarves in Norse mythology is not evidence of a space dwarf archetype in science fiction. It's just evidence that you're trying to be clever.

This "discussion" has consumed much to much of this thread and is becoming increasingly insane, so I imagine I'll leave it there.

Also, that is not a Mantic advert, its a mantic fanatics advert.

The mantic fanatics are a social group, granted an official one, but a social group of fans which in no way is part of the company.

ChocolateGork wrote:GW are parasites. They couldn't exist without tolkien,

Nor would D&D, 95% of fantasy novels written in the last 70 years, or (arguably) epic trilogies (and Tolkien himself took many of his ideas from mythology and traditional stories (and made no secret of it), including orcs. dwarves and elves). How does that change anything Plastictrees has said?

plastictrees wrote:

I appreciate that anyone with a mantic advert in their sig thinks that any example of something existing ever means that GW is evil. Nevertheless the existence of Dark Elves/Dwarves in Norse mythology is not evidence of a space dwarf archetype in science fiction. It's just evidence that you're trying to be clever.

This "discussion" has consumed much to much of this thread and is becoming increasingly insane, so I imagine I'll leave it there.

Nice try, but you don't get to call me insane and then leave it there.

Nor do you get to cast me as some rabid fanboy because for once, you can't find a decent logical counter to support your opinion that GW created everything, ever.

I recently bought a few GW models (couple of the new plastic characters, they are very good), still buy their paints and terrain, and play fantasy.

While it's true that I do defend mantic from time to time, this is only because the company appears to be attracting even more hate than GW lately, and I think it's largely undeserved.

I have no problem with people saying they don't like the miniatures, or the rules, opinions are welcome.

It's the whole "Mantic steal the honest hard toil of GW which the company lovingly crafted 100% out if it's own imgination without ripping off of anything ever" debate that is a bore.

It essentially says "It was absolutely a-okay for GW, when they were a new company in the early 80's, to steal the ideas of DnD and Tolkien and other sources to create their "warhammer" games. It is not okay for mantic to do this."

I have seriously been involved in an argument with someone who was convinced that GW was the "owner" of the concept of orcs being painted green, despite there being thousands of examples in illustrations of goblins and gremlins being green by default for at least 2 centuries prior, and a few select quotes from both Tolkein and early DnD that reference green. All because the mantic studio painters painted them green instead of... oh, I dunno, pink or something, or whatever colour would have allowed the exact same person to make a different complaint of "they don't look like proper orcs, they're not green!"

The whole argument is tired and smacks of hypocrisy... dakka is by no means the worst place for this kind of tedium, BolS is far worse... basically every single one of their news posts about mantic is filled with 100-200 comments of "mantic rip-off GW", "those look like turds, you couldn't pay me to use them".


A) Mantic gets attacked when it makes it's models in a different style to GW.
People say they look too weird, look like crap, and are "too small" because they aren't heroically scaled like GW models. This happened a lot when mantic was first starting out.

B) Mantic gets attacked when it makes it's models in the same style as GW. People say they are ripping off GW.
This happens a lot now that mantic is beginning to produce models that are closer to GWs. They started doing this because the internet spent an entire year ranting about point A and telling mantic "make your models more like the GW ones"


They are listening to customer feedback. If you have a problem with mantic making models that clone GW's, maybe y'all shouldn't have attacked them for making stuff like their elves and dwarfs which looked radically different to GW models.

Can they seriously be blamed for "copying GW", when for an entire year the entire internet did absolutely nothing but state "make your models and your rules more like the GW ones"?

scipio.au wrote:Yeah, just felt a need to dig up the pics since I kept reading people go on about how Squats were "only" bikers/IG-alikes. Especially as Mantic have ex-GW people on board, I'm sure any who spent a lot of time there would have been privvy to a lot more than I have seen.

If the prototypes on your last post are an indication of the direction they were going with the Squats, then I'm glad they let them go. Unoriginal it may be, but Mantic's take is certainly better than those!

The Squat Hearthguard bore more than a passing resemblance to these new Mantic models - complete with faceplates with stylised beards.


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scarletsquig wrote:I have seriously been involved in an argument with someone who was convinced that GW was the "owner" of the concept of orcs being painted green, despite there being thousands of examples in illustrations of goblins and gremlins being green by default for at least 2 centuries prior, and a few select quotes from both Tolkein and early DnD that reference green. All because the mantic studio painters painted them green instead of... oh, I dunno, pink or something, or whatever colour would have allowed the exact same person to make a different complaint of "they don't look like proper orcs, they're not green!"

Got one of those 'thousands' of examples? I'm not claiming that GW was the first one to depict them as green, but that's a pretty authoritative statement. Tolkien's orcs weren't green. D&D orcs were grey-green.

FACT: Mantic gets attacked when it makes it's models in a different style to GW. People say they look too weird, look like crap, and are "too small" because they aren't heroically scaled like GW models. This happened a lot when mantic was first starting out.

That may be true, but it's not relevant to anything that Plastictrees said.

FACT: Mantic gets attacked when it makes it's models in the same style as GW. People say they are ripping off GW. This happens a lot now that mantic is beginning to produce models that are closer to GWs because that is what the internet spent an entire year ranting about.

That's because they are derivative. Also, the people that complained that their models don't look like GW's may not actually be the same ones who think they're knock-offs. I think this statement indicates more about the fickleness of the internet, and the customers that Mantic, GW etc al are courting.

They are listening to customer feedback. If you have a problem with mantic making models that clone GW's, maybe y'all shouldn't have attacked them for making stuff like their elves and dwarfs which looked radically different to GW models.

Kind of a hysterical statement, unless you can point to a post by Plastictrees making that criticism.

Mantic have taken the easy route, putting out a line of minis that are clearly derivative of GW's. Not just their own take on fantasy orcs and dwarfs, but copies of Orks and Squats. This may prove to be a canny business decision, given the apparent backlash against GW (which may be more apparent than real - the internet generates disproportionate levels of outrage and self-righteousness). They may do well selling to disgruntled GW customers. But getting all huffy because someone calls them on their lack of originality is childish.

This thread has wandered WAY too far afield.

Everyone - Please get it back on topic and stop all of the personal attacks.

Oh Alpharius... i had some new arguments to throw in... But its ok...

Just re-giving a "new" people could have missed early:

Via Facebook, ronnie said there will be a lot of new things in Beast of Wars next weekend, i think the first sprues had arrived ^^


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scipio.au wrote:I don't dislike the designs, but they are way out of proportion (even allowing for "heroic scale".) They appear to have gorilla-arms.


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The RT-era Squats were predominantly biker/IG looking.
For 2nd Edition, they were going to take them in much more of a "Space Dwarf" direction, as these unreleased figures show.

Hm, we know that the guys on Mantic worked for GW, i think they are from creative teams, sculptors and such...

Do you know who designed this "new squat era"? It looks a lot like the Forgefathers, makes me wonder if that was not the same "team"...

I loved that exo-armor, and i hope FF big armors looks like that

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Via Facebook, ronnie said there will be a lot of new things in Beast of Wars next weekend

Lately it feels like it's always "next weekend"...

You know that 40k in 1st and 2nd edition were WAY MORE bloated, right?

I know 40K sinceway back when it was called Rogue Trader...

And that 40k is just finally recovering from the 3rd edition restart of the rules system?

Well, they should have gotten Andy Chamber's 3rd edition version out that was really lean and mean.

And that 5th edition is the best edition, codex diversity wise (except for you CSM, you got 4th edition'd)?

It was better than the last ones, but already starts to make the same mistakes made in the old ones...

It sounds like the one that's bloated is you. Two 5000 point armies?

Personal attacks when there are no arguments?

I could rewrite the rules within a short time and make them do the same with way fewer text. But why should I worry. The rules at the moment are what Alessio intended plus all the ballast GW threw onto it after he was finished. A system is bloated when you can achieve the same with fewer text/mechanics. The 40K rules need a good overhaul that streamlines it. At the moment you play against the rules and not against your opponent. Take KoW, not much of a hassle to learn the rules, after 2-3 games they are in your blood and you have nearly the same fun you had with the old GW editions.

scarletsquig wrote:The whole argument is tired and smacks of hypocrisy...

It's not hypocrisy to care more about what a company is doing right now than what it was doing 30 years ago.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Personal attacks when there are no arguments?

I could rewrite the rules within a short time and make them do the same with way fewer text. But why should I worry. The rules at the moment are what Alessio intended plus all the ballast GW threw onto it after he was finished. A system is bloated when you can achieve the same with fewer text/mechanics. The 40K rules need a good overhaul that streamlines it. At the moment you play against the rules and not against your opponent. Take KoW, not much of a hassle to learn the rules, after 2-3 games they are in your blood and you have nearly the same fun you had with the old GW editions.

Sorry that was not intended as an attack on your person, but rather to suggest that at your army size, that is indeed bloated, and you cannot play normal 40k using all of your forces.

I believe 40k rules could be streamlined but I do not believe to the extent that you think they can be.

Scarletsquig, AlexHolker want to close the thread... Lets ignore him?

But let me ask: Alex, you seem to know everything about GW Squats, do you know who are team involved into their canceled "revamp"? Im really curious about it

Duncan, ph34r: 40k need a little bunch of small rules changed, and them it will be almost perfect. Right now it have little space for strategy, and much for luck.
Its like i say sometimes: 40k is a matter of listbuild, luck and lack of stupidity, in this order...

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Scarletsquig, AlexHolker want to close the thread... Lets ignore him?

What are you on about?

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Do you know who designed this "new squat era"? It looks a lot like the Forgefathers, makes me wonder if that was not the same "team"...

I loved that exo-armor, and i hope FF big armors looks like that

Not sure, but being realistic for the era, I'd assume that it was a few guys at the very least, probably including the Perry Twins as key designers as well as John Blanche's input/art direction - along with others who may or may not be with GW these days and/or may or may not be with Mantic. Doubtful it would have been "the whole Squat team" or anything like that.

Yeah, but there we can see a lot influence... i doubt the whole team is in, but im just wondering that guys on mantic at least saw them, and maybe some of them even worked in that...

I'm sure at least Jake Thornton would have seen it, he was working for GW back then.

But I think what's more likely is that some Mantic people will be aware of GW's forthcoming Demiurg release

Sorry that was not intended as an attack on your person, but rather to suggest that at your army size, that is indeed bloated, and you cannot play normal 40k using all of your forces.

That´s all FW-stuff included and if you play Apocalypse the way it was intended and not those slugfests with 2 inch between two blocks of armies 5000 is quite a reasonable size. Of course you need a table with the right size.....

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Yeah, but there we can see a lot influence... i doubt the whole team is in, but im just wondering that guys on mantic at least saw them, and maybe some of them even worked in that...

I'm sure anyone who was part of GW at the end of the RT era and the beginning of 2nd Ed would definitely have seen them. If my memory serves, Jake Thornton was one of the three "apprentices" that GW brought in to live in a shared house and edit the Citadel Journal after 2nd Ed had been out for awhile, along with Gav Thorpe and someone else.

They look a little "World of Warcraft-ish" to me.

Breotan wrote:They look a little "World of Warcraft-ish" to me.

Breotan wrote:They look a little "World of Warcraft-ish" to me.

I never know what people means saying that... I like warcraft (and WoW) sthetical choices. I think that looking WoWish is not bad, except when you fall into "im a christmass tree" syndrome (where the leader fall in).

Miniatures and World of Warcraft both use exaggerated proportions.