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The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

But hey, 40k is a bunch of obscure sci-fi references tied together (with a grim dark copy of Lord of the Rings), trying to become a "pop-culture" reference. It sooo easy to pick some people ideia and call it "copy"...

Are you suggesting that Mantic isn't just producing models for ideas that GW had 15-25 years ago? These are just wholly coincidental creative similarities?

I appreciate that there's a bit of a language barrier here but it seems like you're trying to make fun of the company that your favourite company is entirely reliant on for concepts. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a fan of Mantic, but some honesty about what they're doing would probably make comments like these models being "incredible" a little easier to swallow.


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Cosmic wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Which is completely immature, all things considered, if it truly was a joke.

You're right, it probably wasn't a joke, but if so, how could it be completely immature?

At the end of the day, most ideas and things evolve and originate from a predecessor of some sort.

If not immature, then at least not in any way funny. "HaHa, we painted our soon to be released models in a colour scheme similar to on of GWs most popular factions....haha....ha...hmm".
I'm hoping that they just liked blue and gold.

Necros wrote:Still waiting to see what the human models are like .. someday..

At least there's not much room for Mantic to screw up the body shape on those.

Are you suggesting that GW dont copied the ideias of Tolkien? And added their own flavor to the mix? And after that, added some sci-fi novels to it? And started to take every pop-culture icon and add them into their original ideia?

Mantic proposed scenario have much more to do with AVP future. The minaitures are just the same scale, and the market is happening to be open to that type of product.

Like i said, its to easy to call someone ideia a copy...

So when are we actually going to see the Plastic Multipart (mantic wise anyways ) Minis?

Not really into plastic resin infantry, they look ok but I dont really want them

AlexHolker wrote:

Necros wrote:Still waiting to see what the human models are like .. someday..

At least there's not much room for Mantic to screw up the body shape on those.

Yeah, like GW do with EVERY model they make right? But they had a name for it right? Let me see... "heroic scale"...


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kenshin620 wrote:So when are we actually going to see the Plastic Multipart (mantic wise anyways ) Minis?

Not really into plastic resin infantry, they look ok but I dont really want them

Ronnie said, via facebook, next weekend...

I think that pic was just a way to deal with anxious fans (like me)

Its possible that we see a warpath weekend on Beasts of War

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Are you suggesting that GW dont copied the ideias of Tolkien? And added their own flavor to the mix? And after that, added some sci-fi novels to it? And started to take every pop-culture icon and add them into their original ideia?

Mantic proposed scenario have much more to do with AVP future. The minaitures are just the same scale, and the market is happening to be open to that type of product.

Like i said, its to easy to call someone ideia a copy...

Where GW got their ideas from has really nothing to do with this. Are you really saying that Mantic aren't just providing Squats and an alternative source of Orcs? Or are you saying that they are, but it's totally cool because GW drew on fantasy and historical sources to build their universe?

If you're really saying that Mantic have produced a range of completely original concepts, totally divorced from anything GW has done, then I think you've moved from Mantic enthusiast to fanatic.

It IS easy to call someone's idea a copy, just because it's easy doesn't mean it's wrong.

plastictrees wrote:

It IS easy to call someone's idea a copy, just because it's easy doesn't mean it's wrong.

I'm all for Mantic or any other company copying the hell out of GW tbh provided they do it with quality and relevance. If someone puts out stuff that can enhance what I already own or am doing with my army/collection, then hell yeah copy away.

However: "Space dwarves"?!? Seriously? Whats next "counts-as" Zoats and space marine jet bikes?

How about some "Mega- armour" plastics and some cool plastic scrap-tank vehicle kits...

Nothing on the modern age is tottaly divorced from anything else. You can never do something new and original, just bacause you are inserted in a culture and you think like that culture do. Your imagination is a subproduct of the culture you are inserted on.

Mantic have a relation with GW products for sure, they want to use GW game to make profit with their own ideias. And that is it. You will see some similar design options, but try to se the diferences too...

For example: people keep calling the Forge Fathers "squats", they are not, they dont resemble the GW version of space dwarfs, except for the initial concept (Space Dwarves). Mantic version have much more to do with Fantasy Dwarves developed until space age, and until now i could not see any resemblance (apart from the initial concept) with those squats. Perhaps, it is very clear to me the similarities in the armylist organization of FF and Space Marines, a market ideia made to sell miniatures. Not a copy.

If you will call the Warpath a copy of 40k, them 40k is a copy of something else too. And if we agree in that, it is not a problem. But if I call 40k a copy, you will not like it. So, Warpath background, and the minis associated, are not copies, the game is... and not a good one





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CT GAMER wrote:

plastictrees wrote:

It IS easy to call someone's idea a copy, just because it's easy doesn't mean it's wrong.

I'm all for Mantic or any other company copying the hell out of GW tbh provided they do it with quality and relevance. If someone puts out stuff that can enhance what I already own or am doing with my army/collection, then hell yeah copy away.

However: "Space dwarves"?!? Seriously? Whats next "counts-as" Zoats and space marien jet bikes?

How about some "Mega- armour" plastics and some cool plastic scrap-tank vehicle kits...

Just wait a little, they soon will be there

Ok, those orx are copy, a big copy... I agree...


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Just commenting: its fun to see someone calling space dwarfs lame, and at the same time calling for space orkz lol

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:


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Just commenting: its fun to see someone calling space dwarfs lame, and at the same time calling for space orkz lol

Because Orks are cool. Space Dwarves not so much, though I might be biased...

My point was that "ork copies" and/or the bits and components from them can be pretty easily implemented into a 40k ork army/modelling project, while space dwarves have to be proxied for a whole army if one plans to use them in 40k so they are less relevant from that perspective...

Yeah

When i come to 40k (a year and a half ago lol), the only thing i missed was the "space dwarfs". I always liked them and such. It was kind strange to realize:
- space elfs, check
- space knights, check
- space orks, check
- space ogres, check
- space zombies and skeletons, check
- space dwarves... dont check, oh no they check... what? No, they dont check!!!

Them i sticked with the orkz. So im pretty happy anyway... lol

Im so "orkized" that i have to make an extra effort to write orc instead of ork. lol

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Nothing on the modern age is tottaly divorced from anything else. You can never do something new and original, just bacause you are inserted in a culture and you think like that culture do. Your imagination is a subproduct of the culture you are inserted on.

Yes, very meta, and also gibberish.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Mantic have a relation with GW products for sure, they want to use GW game to make profit with their own ideias. And that is it. You will see some similar design options, but try to se the diferences too...

As soon as the produce something interesting and original I'm sure I will.
They have an opportunity here to produce an original sci-fi game, and instead they seem to be producing an alternate rule set for people to play 40k with.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:For example: people keep calling the Forge Fathers "squats", they are not, they dont resemble the GW version of space dwarfs, except for the initial concept (Space Dwarves). Mantic version have much more to do with Fantasy Dwarves developed until space age, and until now i could not see any resemblance (apart from the initial concept) with those squats. Perhaps, it is very clear to me the similarities in the armylist organization of FF and Space Marines, a market ideia made to sell miniatures. Not a copy.

No, they just look like Squats. The Squats had two threads to their design, something that resembled IG (at the time) and the fantasy dwarf stuff (evident in their egg shaped Exo suits, Epic stuff, and the concept model that popped up in 2nd edition). If you want to pretend that vaguely Nordic fantasy space dwarves wasn't at least part of the direction Squats were taken in then that's just part of your elaborate fantasy world.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:If you will call the Warpath a copy of 40k, them 40k is a copy of something else too. And if we agree in that, it is not a problem. But if I call 40k a copy, you will not like it. So, Warpath background, and the minis associated, are not copies, the game is... and not a good one

If you call 40k a copy of an existing game companies universe then I'll not like it, because it's not true. If you're comparing Mantic's wholesale use of GWs concepts to GW using fantasy and historical tropes in their games then I'm probably going to start assuming that I'm not conversing with a rational person.

I'm not saying Warpath is a copy of 40k. I know little about the Warpath rules, and frankly I don't care to know much else if these are the models they are producing. Again, why would someone want to play 40k with a slightly different rules set? Why not do something interesting and new?

plastictrees wrote:
I'm not saying Warpath is a copy of 40k. I know little about the Warpath rules, and frankly I don't care to know much else if these are the models they are producing. Again, why would someone want to play 40k with a slightly different rules set? Why not do something interesting and new?

The rules do play differntly to 40k - Look up the Beta if its still available - They are not my cup of tea, but are certainly differnt to GW's ruleset.

Mantic did say they would come up with something exciting and new, I guess they still have their other races to develop and release, so there may be some hope.

I assume that Mantic have, in part, taken the step to develop their Space Dwarves and Orx to generate revenue from 40ks existing player base, can't really blame them, IF it helps them to generate funds to develop Warpath in new and exciting ways then it will be good for the hobby.

I'm still waiting on spure pics of the vehicles and minis themselves, Still not terribly impressed by the vehicle ideas that Mantic have shown so far, but I am ready to part with some cash if they come up with the goods.

Mr. Burning wrote:
I'm still waiting on spure pics of the vehicles and minis themselves, Still not terribly impressed by the vehicle ideas that Mantic have shown so far, but I am ready to part with some cash if they come up with the goods.

I think plastic resin comes in a bag, not a sprue. So no vehicle sprues

Mr. Burning wrote:

plastictrees wrote:
I'm not saying Warpath is a copy of 40k. I know little about the Warpath rules, and frankly I don't care to know much else if these are the models they are producing. Again, why would someone want to play 40k with a slightly different rules set? Why not do something interesting and new?

The rules do play differntly to 40k - Look up the Beta if its still available - They are not my cup of tea, but are certainly differnt to GW's ruleset.

Mantic did say they would come up with something exciting and new, I guess they still have their other races to develop and release, so there may be some hope.

I know they're different. My point is that why would I play a different rule set just to push around more space orks and other slightly modified 40k races? Do something exciting and new out of the gate. There are no popular sci-fi games that play at the same sort of scale as 40k, so it's not as if you're painted into a corner creatively. Warmachine didn't faff around with vague GW rip-offs before developing it's own brand.

Have they done anything exciting and new in their fantasy range yet?

plastictrees wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:

plastictrees wrote:
I'm not saying Warpath is a copy of 40k. I know little about the Warpath rules, and frankly I don't care to know much else if these are the models they are producing. Again, why would someone want to play 40k with a slightly different rules set? Why not do something interesting and new?

The rules do play differntly to 40k - Look up the Beta if its still available - They are not my cup of tea, but are certainly differnt to GW's ruleset.

Mantic did say they would come up with something exciting and new, I guess they still have their other races to develop and release, so there may be some hope.

I know they're different. My point is that why would I play a different rule set just to push around more space orks and other slightly modified 40k races? Do something exciting and new out of the gate. There are no popular sci-fi games that play at the same sort of scale as 40k, so it's not as if you're painted into a corner creatively. Warmachine didn't faff around with vague GW rip-offs before developing it's own brand.

Have they done anything exciting and new in their fantasy range yet?

There are only so many popular fantasy tropes and themes.
Popularised due to the emount of pre existing fiction and literature and games around.

There is nothing particularly 'orginal' about Humans, Wizards, Orcs an Goblins, Elves/Dark Elves, Ogres, Dragons, Ratmen, Beastmen, Dwarves/Chaos Dwarves, and Dragons. Change their backgrounds around and hey presto, a new and 'original' game. GW don't have the lock on originality, they just gained mass market exposure for their version.


and yeah, didnt think about resin not being on sprues, would still be nice to see some images of the finished product sooner rather than later.

Mr. Burning wrote:

I assume that Mantic have, in part, taken the step to develop their Space Dwarves and Orx to generate revenue from 40ks existing player base, can't really blame them, IF it helps them to generate funds to develop Warpath in new and exciting ways then it will be good for the hobby.

I think this is it and all about it. Considering the sales of KoW stuff, which apparently have been significant, and that 40k is an even more popular game I wouldn't be surprised at all if these guys sell by the bucket load. If it then allows Mantic to produce a new range of things which exercise their designer's talents and imagination more, then surely that can only be a good thing.

And lets face it here all of these original releases are occupying a 'void' in GW releases, and things which many fans have been clamouring after for ages - Dwarves in Space (other than the odd collectors army, these had completely disappeared yet no other lost miniature has such a reoccurring ghost), a to-scale ork buggy and a thudd gun.

All other things considered, I think there is a very shrewd mind at the heart of some of Mantic's design and planning.

Mr. Burning wrote:

plastictrees wrote:
Have they done anything exciting and new in their fantasy range yet?

There are only so many popular fantasy tropes and themes.
Popularised due to the emount of pre existing fiction and literature and games around.

There is nothing particularly 'orginal' about Humans, Wizards, Orcs an Goblins, Elves/Dark Elves, Ogres, Dragons, Ratmen, Beastmen, Dwarves/Chaos Dwarves, and Dragons. Change their backgrounds around and hey presto, a new and 'original' game. GW don't have the lock on originality, they just gained mass market exposure for their version.

So that would be a no then.

There are plenty of companies producing exciting models in the fantasy genre. Nobody needs to defend Mantic for not being one of them, I just don't see what GW not creating popular fantasy entirely from whole cloth has to do with it.

plastictrees wrote:
No, they just look like Squats. The Squats had two threads to their design, something that resembled IG (at the time) and the fantasy dwarf stuff (evident in their egg shaped Exo suits, Epic stuff, and the concept model that popped up in 2nd edition). If you want to pretend that vaguely Nordic fantasy space dwarves wasn't at least part of the direction Squats were taken in then that's just part of your elaborate fantasy world.

If you think that the Forge Fathers look like squats, you've got another thing coming.

Yes the Forge Father vehicle is a thud gun. Asside from that, nearly every asthetic point between Squats and Forgefathers is different. It's helmeted, armored, angular plate-mail dwarves in space vs parka wearing, ball cap topped biker dwarves in space. The only thing they have in common is being dwarves.

The deisgns are so different that if Forgefathers are copying the design of Squats, then every dwarfish race (fantasy, or sci-fi), by every company since early 90's is a GW copy simply by virtue of being a dwarf.

There's no doubt in my mind that Mantic is targeting Squat fans, but after all the crap they take for their knock-off Space Orks, I think Mantic deserves at least some respect for taking the dwarves-in-space in a very different design direction than the original GW squats.

The real test will be to see if future armies take the Forgefather -new twist on an old concept- route, or the Maurader -let's copy it as close as legaly possible- route.

Eilif wrote:

plastictrees wrote:
No, they just look like Squats. The Squats had two threads to their design, something that resembled IG (at the time) and the fantasy dwarf stuff (evident in their egg shaped Exo suits, Epic stuff, and the concept model that popped up in 2nd edition). If you want to pretend that vaguely Nordic fantasy space dwarves wasn't at least part of the direction Squats were taken in then that's just part of your elaborate fantasy world.

If you think that the Forge Fathers look like squats, you've got another thing coming.

Yes the Forge Father vehicle is a thud gun. Asside from that, nearly every asthetic point between Squats and Forgefathers is different. It's helmeted, armored, angular plate-mail dwarves in space vs parka wearing, ball cap topped biker dwarves in space. The only thing they have in common is being dwarves.

The deisgns are so different that if Forgefathers are copying the design of Squats, then every dwarfish race (fantasy, or sci-fi), by every company since early 90's is a GW copy simply by virtue of being a dwarf.

There's no doubt in my mind that Mantic is targeting Squat fans, but after all the crap they take for their knock-off Space Orks, I think Mantic deserves at least some respect for taking the dwarves-in-space in a very different design direction than the original GW squats.

The real test will be to see if future armies take the Forgefather -new twist on an old concept- route, or the Maurader -let's copy it as close as legaly possible- route.

Again, Squats had that element as well. If you're not familiar with the directions Squats were taken in that doesn't make Mantic more original.

I'd like to see the "real test" to be not modifying GW concepts to varying degrees but to do something that we can't already find in sci-fi TTGs. Maybe their target audience is people with low expectations of gaming companies.

Quite a lot of people really liked the squats when GW made them.

I disagree with the implication that because GW decided to stop making something 25 years ago, that means that no other company should ever be allowed to make it ever again.

If forgefathers = squats, fine. I'm happy to accept that. Why is this a bad thing, again?

When mantic released abyssal dwarves the internet was full of rage.

However, whilst everyone whinged and moaned on the forums there were a lot of Chaos Dwarf fans out there who were really happy about being able to buy the model range again.

The abyssal dwarf model range is currently mantic's second best-seller after the undead, they could barely keep up with demand and their caster was doing nothing but abyssal dwarves every single day for months.

A similar thing could happen with forgefathers, there are a lot of fans of squats still around. What people on the internet simply (and utterly stubbornly) refuse to understand is that their personal opinion is not the only one that exists on the entire planet.

Statements such as "I don't understand why someone could call these incredible" betray that thought. You don't like a model, someone else does. Is this really such a big deal and worth slagging the company and everyone who likes their models off over the course of several pages for? Unless mantic ran over your dog or something, I don't see the point. I don't like warmachine models, but I don't feel the need to troll every single new warmachine release thread with "don't like it, looks way too goofy and anime" or believe that it is impossible for anyone else to enjoy the style of the models. If you hate 100% of everything that mantic does and are currently happy buying GW models, why bother?


Another thing I do not understand is this:

Hasslefree miniatures produce a full range of space dwarves, and have been selling them for years.

Why are there not any rants about "hasslefree suck, they steal GW's hard work!"?

Where have I ranted about Mantic sucking and stealing GWs hard work?

Hasslefree took their Grymm (Grym?Grimm?) in a direction distinct from nordic space dwarves, to me that's the difference between dwarves in space and Squats.

My initial post here was a reaction to The Dwarf Wolf taking jabs at GWs universe while apparently gleefully plugging Mantics product which entirely and purposefully derivative of that universe.
I personally found that disingenuous and obnoxious.

I appreciate that there are people that are happy to have another option for their Squat army.

I personally find the direction that they are taking with Warpath to be entirely un-interesting. They are taking a safe route, following GWs wake. I see how that will get them sales, I don't consider it especially shrewd.

I would say they have made some very shrewd decisions plastictrees. They have got to be one of the fastest growing companies out there and from a relatively small operation - perhaps because several of them are ex-GW, they have recognised shortcomings with the market leader (some of the biggest being price and lack of miniature availability) and are producing products that cater to that demand. They noticed that GW no longer produced a commonly available board game, and produces Dwarf Kings hold for instance. They sold out of their initial print run of 100,000 very fast, those are some impressive numbers for a new company and I'm sure something that most miniature design companies can only dream of.

Eilif wrote:
If you think that the Forge Fathers look like squats, you've got another thing coming.

Yes the Forge Father vehicle is a thud gun. Asside from that, nearly every asthetic point between Squats and Forgefathers is different. It's helmeted, armored, angular plate-mail dwarves in space vs parka wearing, ball cap topped biker dwarves in space. The only thing they have in common is being dwarves.

I agree, although I would say the forgefathers are taking 'Dwarves in Space' in the direction of GW's Epic system conception of squats - high technology, rather than cigar chewing bikers. Really, I think that was the difference and evolution from 1st edition to 2nd edition 40k, but 40k never made that step forward (except in a couple of cases, such as Exo-armour).

Many of the Rogue Trader models look a little camp by comparison to later miniatures. That's not an indictment, merely a comment on their aesthetic styling. Imagine if all viewpoints of orks were based on their first edition version, what would people think of them coming back or being produced again? I think they would receive a similar amount of ridicule. However, to cast such a judgement as "Dwarves in Space suck, look at the Squats lol" is to fundamentally not understand the history of the development of miniatures, and that of course if GW were to attempt to make Dwarves in Space again now (they might well do, as Mantic are doing now) they would follow a very, very different design style to those miniatures which are now more than 20 years old and relics of another era. Something far more dark and gritty, and with less room for humour.

plastictrees wrote:
Again, Squats had that element as well. If you're not familiar with the directions Squats were taken in that doesn't make Mantic more original.

That would be an incorrect assumption. I'm familiar with virtually the entire range. From the classic parka and hat wearing stuties that most folks associate with squats, to the mad biker shorties, to the tubby, power armored, Space-marine'ish dwarves and dreads that I can only guess that one might relate to the mantic range regardless of the fact that the armor design is completely different (rounded and bulby vs angular with sharp edges).

It seems inevitable that any fantasy-dwarf-in-space would bring assertions from you that they are a Squat copy. Thus, I guess we're going to have to just disagree on this one.

They are not "following in GW's wake".

Mantics games play extremely differently to any of GW's games.

Mantics models may have some ascetically similar qualities, but when the world already has established archetypes for many concepts (space dwarves, for example) there is really no way of saying any particular design is original.

Eilif wrote:

plastictrees wrote:
Again, Squats had that element as well. If you're not familiar with the directions Squats were taken in that doesn't make Mantic more original.

That would be an incorrect assumption. I'm familiar with virtually the entire range. From the classic parka and hat wearing stuties that most folks associate with squats, to the mad biker shorties, to the tubby, power armored, Space-marine'ish dwarves and dreads that I can only guess that one might relate to the mantic range regardless of the fact that the armor design is completely different (rounded and bulby vs angular with sharp edges).

It seems inevitable that any fantasy-dwarf-in-space would bring assertions from you that they are a Squat copy. Thus, I guess we're going to have to just disagree on this one.

That would be based on me constantly leaping into all the fantasy-dwarf-in-space threads and declaring them to be copies of Squats? I've already said that I don't consider Hasslefrees Grymmmmm to be Squat rip offs. Mantic chose to develop their dwarves in space to tie closely with where GW was taking them in Epic and the early 3rd edition concepts so that they could appeal to the people that wanted Squats back.

I guess I don't see why my assertion is contentious. They're clearly making Squats for people that miss Squats. They're packaging them with Orcs for people that want different Orc options and that's the flagship of their new sci-fi TTG. That part isn't a value judgment. It's just clearly what they are doing.
Why people feel the need to then throw their hands in the air and start declaring Mantic to be wildly original, oh, and GW totally ripped of Tolkein, and also everything is derivative of everything else man, is beyond me.


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lord marcus wrote:They are not "following in GW's wake".

Mantics games play extremely differently to any of GW's games.

At least read the last few pages of the thread if you're going to jump in.

lord marcus wrote:Mantics models may have some ascetically similar qualities, but when the world already has established archetypes for many concepts (space dwarves, for example) there is really no way of saying any particular design is original.

Ah yes, the long established archetype of the fantasy nordic space dwarf. Who can say where in this great melting pot of ideas that notion sprang from. How can you "own" an idea anyway right?

Oh yeah, sorry, GW invented the Nordic Looking Dwarves. Im sorry for my ignorance about that. o.O

Do you know that dwarfs are "nordic looking" since their "fantasy origin" int "The Hobbit", right? I dont know if there is other references to them before that (except in norse legends).

You know that in D&D the Dwarf (that was a class) wear horned helmet, fur and chainmail, right? And that it was a game based in Chainmail (a wargame that i dont know in details, but that is old like the hell).

So, you are like saying "Mantic Forgefathers are a copy of squats, because they look like space dwarves, and that i what squats looks like".

But anyway, i dont wanted to start a discussion about it. And if you have that BIG necessity to make you point stand. I agree with you, and Mantic dont have nothing original.

(Just like GW)

Why are you do defensive about Mantic producing what are clearly Squats? I understand that you don't want to start a discussion about it as "discussion" to you apparently means hysterical rants about "copying" and GW being terrible, which must be exhausting.

plastictrees wrote:

Ah yes, the long established archetype of the fantasy nordic space dwarf. Who can say where in this great melting pot of ideas that notion sprang from. How can you "own" an idea anyway right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology

Note the part about the dwarf homeworld.

Yes, the Ancient Norse did in fact have science fiction!

scarletsquig wrote:

plastictrees wrote:

Ah yes, the long established archetype of the fantasy nordic space dwarf. Who can say where in this great melting pot of ideas that notion sprang from. How can you "own" an idea anyway right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology

Note the part about the dwarf homeworld.

Yes, the Ancient Norse did in fact have science fiction!

I appreciate that anyone with a mantic advert in their sig thinks that any example of something existing ever means that GW is evil. Nevertheless the existence of Dark Elves/Dwarves in Norse mythology is not evidence of a space dwarf archetype in science fiction. It's just evidence that you're trying to be clever.

This "discussion" has consumed much to much of this thread and is becoming increasingly insane, so I imagine I'll leave it there.

I dont think insane is the word. But like squats, forgefathers are not original. They are dwarves in space, nothing special. BUT mantic has made an attempt to make them looks futuristic. While squats were just TINY BIKERS. Nothing futuristic about them except the occasional gun.. But then the imperium isn't advanced in alot of areas that it should be.