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Yea, mindstrike is super effective vs their 3+ ghosthelm save. And by that, I mean its not very effective.

At least they can't fortune it (I found out after my opponent fortuned it)

So maybe it is effective if they aren't fortuning their ghosthelm saves.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Yea, mindstrike is super effective vs their 3+ ghosthelm save. And by that, I mean its not very effective.

At least they can't fortune it (I found out after my opponent fortuned it)

So maybe it is effective if they aren't fortuning their ghosthelm saves.

Ouch my limited knowledge of Eldar kinda screwed me there, regardless I will pump at least 4-6 mindstrikes into him, as well as 2-3 plasma into his squad, might not kill him but it will sting.

sudojoe wrote:One really good combo that's kind of been kind of overlooked lately I think has been Tau + Eldar. Really good long range fire power, buffs can go around, psy power defense, and alot of mobility to get out of assault range with jetpack moves.

Played it, beat it. It's good, but nothing special.

valace2 wrote:If I play Eldar now what will be the first thing to die? It will screw with communion.

Not if you roll 3D6 tests like I do

valace2 wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Yea, mindstrike is super effective vs their 3+ ghosthelm save. And by that, I mean its not very effective.

At least they can't fortune it (I found out after my opponent fortuned it)

So maybe it is effective if they aren't fortuning their ghosthelm saves.

Ouch my limited knowledge of Eldar kinda screwed me there, regardless I will pump at least 4-6 mindstrikes into him, as well as 2-3 plasma into his squad, might not kill him but it will sting.

That would probably kill them, but it is probably Eldrad with like, 3 warlocks. They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well. Depending on the angle of attack, it probably wouldn't be too hard to kill the warlocks first. Eldrad is a bitch though.

Can a quad gun shoot at everything with its full ballistic skill? It certainly seems like it can, since it has Skyfire and Interceptor.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

valace2 wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Yea, mindstrike is super effective vs their 3+ ghosthelm save. And by that, I mean its not very effective.

At least they can't fortune it (I found out after my opponent fortuned it)

So maybe it is effective if they aren't fortuning their ghosthelm saves.

Ouch my limited knowledge of Eldar kinda screwed me there, regardless I will pump at least 4-6 mindstrikes into him, as well as 2-3 plasma into his squad, might not kill him but it will sting.

That would probably kill them, but it is probably Eldrad with like, 3 warlocks. They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well. Depending on the angle of attack, it probably wouldn't be too hard to kill the warlocks first. Eldrad is a bitch though.

Can a quad gun shoot at everything with its full ballistic skill? It certainly seems like it can, since it has Skyfire and Interceptor.

Yep either in the air or on the ground but its only BS3 isn't it?


We only have 1 or 2 Eldar players in the area so Eldar usually aren't a problem.

valace2 wrote:

Yep either in the air or on the ground but its only BS3 isn't it?


We only have 1 or 2 Eldar players in the area so Eldar usually aren't a problem.

I believe it is BS2 normally, but if they have a unit directing it, it uses the ballistic skill of the firer. So today he had a dire avenger exarch on it, with BS5. Still only managed one glance on a vendetta, lol.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Thing is though, that isn't a Grey Knight list, that's a Space Wolves list with a few Grey Knight Allies. Thus it doesn't entirely apply to discussion in the Grey Knight thread.

More points in the GK portion.

omg im being id 'd from text about gk now just shoot me now

Gorfang EadSplitta wrote:omg im being id 'd from text about gk now just shoot me now

you mean the wall o-text that is the first page?

the GK cheese unfortunately has moved on. It's clearly in the necron cheese corner right now. If you haven't seen it yet, don't worry, it'll catch on enough soon. Makes GK cheese of 5th seem like a mild bree instead of the flying limberger of the necrons.

Honestly, Necrons are so bad right now that I won't even play against them. Grey Knights may have been pretty powerful when they first came out, but they weren't even close to where Necrons are now.

If you get past the runes of warding in eldar, whats the counter for all of their ap2 and ap3 shots? Cause honestly thats my problem. 3D6 tests don't bother me as much as the ap3 shots 4x star cannons can shoot

daedalus-templarius wrote: They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well.

I'd have to check my Eldar Codex, but I'm pretty sure only Farseers and not Warlocks have Ghosthelms.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote: They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well.

I'd have to check my Eldar Codex, but I'm pretty sure only Farseers and not Warlocks have Ghosthelms.

Just checked an you are correct, so a Storm Raven assault would screw their unit up pretty bad

Now I know if a unit of Grey Knights or a IG psyker squad was hit they would only take one PotW, I wonder how that would affect a Farseer an his Warlocks.

valace2 wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote: They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well.

I'd have to check my Eldar Codex, but I'm pretty sure only Farseers and not Warlocks have Ghosthelms.

Just checked an you are correct, so a Storm Raven assault would screw their unit up pretty bad

Now I know if a unit of Grey Knights or a IG psyker squad was hit they would only take one PotW, I wonder how that would affect a Farseer an his Warlocks.

No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

we have definately not been playing it like this even since 5th edition. Resolve the perils against one model for the brotherhood even if the justicar is dead is what we do here. So far the places I've visited in the US have also done it this way. Have not seen anyone perils the whole group yet. Reference: page 21. The unit suffers the perils. does not specify spell casting or source of the perils.

On the flip side, if you hit just one of a group of battle psykers, their rule will kill them all.

The IG battle psykers will get "saved" by their comissar.

The eldar codex says that each warlock is a psyker so I'm assuming that each individual model hit will take a perils and that you have to actually hit the farseer themselves to perils them which they will get a ghosthelm save if they have a ghosthelm. None of the warlocks get ghosthelms as an option. You are NOT allowed to fortune the ghosthelm as it is not a regular save. It's the same issue with FnP. You don't get to fortune that either.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote: They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well.

I'd have to check my Eldar Codex, but I'm pretty sure only Farseers and not Warlocks have Ghosthelms.

Just checked an you are correct, so a Storm Raven assault would screw their unit up pretty bad

Now I know if a unit of Grey Knights or a IG psyker squad was hit they would only take one PotW, I wonder how that would affect a Farseer an his Warlocks.

No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

ditto here we run it as only one perils per mindstrike thats why I was wondering about the Farseer/Warlock combo.

Not that concerned with Mindstrike an ghost helm it still autowounds if it hits and a 3+ from the ghosthelm is beatable.

Apparently the guy I was playing against was under the impression that all of the Warlocks in Eldrad's group had ghosthelms.

That mindstrike missile would have likely been much more effective otherwise...

Godless-Mimicry wrote:No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

You obviously haven't read the rules of Brotherhood of Psykers. The unit counts as a psyker, not every model in the unit.
And there's even text that specially mentions what to do in case like this:
"If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame ..."

BRB text is more or less identical.

So Mindstrike cause total of one Perils for each GK Unit with BoP they hit. Not one Perils per model with BoP special rule under the blast.

Luide wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

You obviously haven't read the rules of Brotherhood of Psykers. The unit counts as a psyker, not every model in the unit.
And there's even text that specially mentions what to do in case like this:
"If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame ...".

This is a rule for when a unit suffers Perils; you have even stated it as such above. With Mindstrikes the model suffers the Perils, not the unit, so the rule does not apply.

There is a big difference in this game between something that effects a unit and something that effects a model.

EDIT: Just realised this thread is turning into too many rules debates, so I'll digress with my above argument. Unlike many other sites this is actually a very good tactica for Grey Knights, so wouldn't want to see it go to hell with arguing

Necrons aren't too difficult.

I posted my list a bit back. My main playtests have been vs various Necron lists.

Biggest Strengths of Crons:
Wraiths are fast, formidable MEQ killers that are quite durable due to our inherent lack of Str 8.
Scarabs are fast durable threat that eats vehicles easily.
CCBs get to the backfield fast and can really beat-up on dreadnoughts.
Doom Scythes absolutely wreck mech lines and can snipe out Paladins and other expensive models (psycannons, Coteaz).
AV13. Most of our weaponry is Str. 8 or lower.
Flyers, the best ones in the game, with the ability to drop troops while moving.

However, all of those things can be countered pretty well by various GK builds.
Wraiths are great but Misfortune absolutely wrecks them. And most Cron players dont bring psychic defence to boot! The broken grenade set also can tear apart wraiths pretty easily.
Scarabs are eaten alive by Psycannons now with reduced cover. Incinerators on the counter-charge will ruin their days. Purgation squads are nice to get more bodies in another FOC and to get free incinerators.
Flyers and AV13 are countered by MASS Psycannons. If you bring 10+ Psycannons you should be getting 5+ penetrates a turn.
Overlords are a nuisance but bringing hidden Hammers hurts him pretty bad. I like to take one on a non-Knight of the flame in my purifier squads.

Crons are great but I still think GK reign supreme. The amount of shooting you can sport is absolutely absurd (think 100 str. 7 rending shots). A good GK player can pack an answer to everything, infantry, horde, mech without even looking at allies. The Psycannon is a big part of it. It is cheap as dirt almost codex-wide and threatens infantry, MEQ, TEQ and all AV vehicles. Rending, AP2 is HUGE.

Been reading threads on people dropping Plasma death squads like Termicide or Sternguard, etc.

We have our own, super cheap version. The Callidus Assassin.

D6 Str 4 Ap2 hits when arriving, then an Ap 1 template. I realize it's still hard to roll "to wound", but everything hits automatically then gets no armour save. Not bad for 145 points and could even provide a distraction in the following turns.
Ok so it's still not super effective, but it doesn't seem terrible either. edit: depends on your opponent's army's leadership I guess. Useless against Necrons.


I'm thinking about running a non-competitive list with a Callidus, Eversor and Vindicare. Should be fun!

Dunwich wrote:Been reading threads on people dropping Plasma death squads like Termicide or Sternguard, etc.

We have our own, super cheap version. The Callidus Assassin.

D6 Str 4 Ap2 hits when arriving, then an Ap 1 template. I realize it's still hard to roll "to wound", but everything hits automatically then gets no armour save. Not bad for 145 points and could even provide a distraction in the following turns.
Ok so it's still not super effective, but it doesn't seem terrible either. edit: depends on your opponent's army's leadership I guess. Useless against Necrons.


I'm thinking about running a non-competitive list with a Callidus, Eversor and Vindicare. Should be fun!

Don't forget the IG battle psyker combo with the calidus to make her wound essentially on 2+ with her template
It'll basically kill and then force them to run just about everytime.

10+ psycannons are indeed fun and pretty useful but that is definately alot of points to down say a 160 point flier. That's anywhere between 400-600 points of marine firepower. Point for point, those fliers are beast. during those rounds, you'll also be forced to not deal with scarabs or wraiths or other AV13 that may be comming in at you. Nothing says that the enemy will be within 24' range of all your guns either during the first turn or two. (if you are grouping all your guys like that then templates/pie plates, and death rays will hurt alot)

Don't get me wrong, I love pyscannons to death but I don't count of them as my primary AA defenses anymore just because of the volume of fire you will see and how many you may lose before your turn to shoot. All those tesla destructors really hurt not to mention the range as well as target saturation you may be forced to decide between.

I need some mathhammer o theorycrafting with this:

Which is the optimal number of Jokaeros (I read somewhere 2), and the optimal number of psychics (been running with 5 of them).

DakotaBlue wrote:I need some mathhammer o theorycrafting with this:

Which is the optimal number of Jokaeros (I read somewhere 2), and the optimal number of psychics (been running with 5 of them).

2 monkies allow you to get past that rolling a 1 on your enhancement and getting nothing option. You can always throw in 6+ monkies in a unit but it gets freakishly expensive. You also lock yourself out of any enhancements.

3 monkies is also still viable but you do risk losing chance to get 12' on shooting. Also the more monkies you have, the less effective a roll of 5 will be. A 3 and 4 are also only semi useful since you will be in cover most of the time though rending is quite nice but not that predictable.

Rolling a 1 with 2 monkies is probably best scenario given a maxed out group. I would tend to run bigger groups if monkies to get the most buffs out of them.

Have tried 3 and it is still usable though tends to function sorta like an IG HWT (though pricy)

Psykers I like to either do:

6 - so that I get str 8 and Ap1. Ap1 causes +2 on the damage vehicles table. Str 8 can threaten everything includng Av14 not to mention can cause ID and bypass alot of thing's FNP. Only tyrnids do you really need the str 10 ap1 thingies.

8, so that I can the str 10....

or 1-2, so that if I perils it's no big deal and really good as anti-horde. 20 points gets you a 36' bolter pie plate. Kills decently and don't really care if I lose them. Also useful to scare the opponent with how many pie plates go out. (assuming a decent hit, 20 points = 5-6 bolter hits, to get similar with storm bolters, I'd need 7x3= 21 (of points or more - for 6 shots. realistically it's probably closer to 42 points of storm bolter acolytes due to needing 4's to hit. 6 x2 = 12 shots ~ 6 hits) Due to charging distances and wound allocations, forcing your opponent to spread out is actually semi-viable. Less can fit into cover and focus fire can kill more hordes.

DakotaBlue wrote:I need some mathhammer o theorycrafting with this:

Which is the optimal number of Jokaeros (I read somewhere 2), and the optimal number of psychics (been running with 5 of them).

Optimal number of Jokaeros is 2, you can find the math behind at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/449309/4279193.page.
For psykers, I don't really know. I'd either take either 1 (cheap source of large blasts) or 5 (AP2 is nice)

My henchmen build is going to be 5 bolter guys, 5 psyker guys, 2 jokaeros.

I'm thinking in add a techmarine just for a 3+ cover save and a conversion beam.

Thx Luide, btw.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Luide wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

You obviously haven't read the rules of Brotherhood of Psykers. The unit counts as a psyker, not every model in the unit.
And there's even text that specially mentions what to do in case like this:
"If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame ...".

This is a rule for when a unit suffers Perils; you have even stated it as such above. With Mindstrikes the model suffers the Perils, not the unit, so the rule does not apply.

There is a big difference in this game between something that effects a unit and something that effects a model.

EDIT: Just realised this thread is turning into too many rules debates, so I'll digress with my above argument. Unlike many other sites this is actually a very good tactica for Grey Knights, so wouldn't want to see it go to hell with arguing

Just want to go back to this real quick... my buddy wanted to table flip when I told him all three of his rune priests will auto perils when they get hit by the missle. He was also enraged that the actual hits will resolve wounds to the front of the squad closest to the raven. Ravens in a GK vs. GK battle will be the dirtiest of fights if you perils every model reguardless of brotherhood. I shudder at the thought. Fastest. Game. Ever. haha

I guess if you're worried about getting perils from mindstrike in GK vs GK you could just spread your units out; it is only a small blast.

It does say it affects every model under the template that is a psyker, I believe. That would lead me to think that it would indeed perils every GK beneath it.

DakotaBlue wrote:I need some mathhammer o theorycrafting with this:

Which is the optimal number of Jokaeros (I read somewhere 2), and the optimal number of psychics (been running with 5 of them).

2 Joks is optimal; anymore and you are losing results on the table, most importantly, the best result on the table, the 12" range, is lost upon adding a 3rd Jok. 1 is ok, just 2 increase your chances of getting a good buff.

As for Psykers, depends on your list. I am trying to run a Karamazov list with two units of 8 (with a Crusader each so the unit isn't wiped by Perils).

sudojoe wrote:

Dunwich wrote:Been reading threads on people dropping Plasma death squads like Termicide or Sternguard, etc.

We have our own, super cheap version. The Callidus Assassin.

D6 Str 4 Ap2 hits when arriving, then an Ap 1 template. I realize it's still hard to roll "to wound", but everything hits automatically then gets no armour save. Not bad for 145 points and could even provide a distraction in the following turns.
Ok so it's still not super effective, but it doesn't seem terrible either. edit: depends on your opponent's army's leadership I guess. Useless against Necrons.


I'm thinking about running a non-competitive list with a Callidus, Eversor and Vindicare. Should be fun!

Don't forget the IG battle psyker combo with the calidus to make her wound essentially on 2+ with her template
It'll basically kill and then force them to run just about everytime.

10+ psycannons are indeed fun and pretty useful but that is definately alot of points to down say a 160 point flier. That's anywhere between 400-600 points of marine firepower. Point for point, those fliers are beast. during those rounds, you'll also be forced to not deal with scarabs or wraiths or other AV13 that may be comming in at you. Nothing says that the enemy will be within 24' range of all your guns either during the first turn or two. (if you are grouping all your guys like that then templates/pie plates, and death rays will hurt alot)

Don't get me wrong, I love pyscannons to death but I don't count of them as my primary AA defenses anymore just because of the volume of fire you will see and how many you may lose before your turn to shoot. All those tesla destructors really hurt not to mention the range as well as target saturation you may be forced to decide between.

It shouldn't take 10 Psycannons to down 1 flyer. If you can show me a better AA weapon in the GK codex. Go right ahead. The psyfleman are just as susceptible, if not more, to flyers. The only real AA options for GK are the Aegis/Allied IG or massing Psycannons. The Psycannons are a great choice with the Aegis. Investing points in a detachment is more difficult for GK due to the high cost of many of our units. If you are fielding ~70-80 Str. 7 shots you will down flyers immediately.

Crons are tough but I think people are having a knee-jerk reaction to how awesome they are. So far I have been a little unimpressed with flyers. I also think that Wraiths got a little weaker (harder to allocate). The change to night-fighting has been huge for me too. Before it was a big issue and now it barely effects the way I play.