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daedalus-templarius wrote:I guess if you're worried about getting perils from mindstrike in GK vs GK you could just spread your units out; it is only a small blast.

It does say it affects every model under the template that is a psyker, I believe. That would lead me to think that it would indeed perils every GK beneath it.

Ah, but normal GK models are not Psykers themselves. GK Units with BoP are considered to be a single Psyker and have special rules on how to handle attacks that target Psykers, like Mindstrikes do.
If normal GK models were Psykers, you'd see Culexus Assassin in every army as you'd easily get Animus Speculum to be Assault 12+ weapon without even trying.

But back on track: I've personally found that the free Jink save all Necron vehicles was huge buff for them. Of course it might have something to do with me getting 8 penetrating hits on the AV13 Necron vehicles and opponent making 7 +5 Jink (cover) saves for them...
And I also think that volume of fire is not effective counter for flyers. Unless you have Divination it does take really does take on average 9 Psycannons to drop a single flyer:36 shots @ BS 1 equals 6 hits, which translates to 1 glance and 2 pens against AV11. Increase number to 13 Psycannons if the flyer Evades...
So I'd say Aegis Defence Line or Bastion is a no-brainer choice, unless you already have 2+ Stormravens or use allies to supply you with Skyfire or fliers.

Which warlord trait would you get for Draigo?

Ouch, that reminds me of my last game against Eldar. The Vindicare couldn't kill a viper. My reserves didn't come in until turn 5 and the game ended on turn 4. :( And I couldn't hit anything with a psycannon to save my life. Someone please mathhammer the probability of a game sucking that much! I guess it goes to show you how even the best laid plans can still go wrong. At least the Eldar player didn't have any flyers.

reserves are automatic arrival on turn 4 so math hammer says 0% of it happening

assuming a 4 turns of shooting with say a 5+ jink save = 1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/81 chance of making all those 5+'s back to back. =1.23%






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DakotaBlue wrote:Which warlord trait would you get for Draigo?

As to warlord traits, they've almost always been kind of useless and really just depends on your army.(which is why there is no topic on this for the first page since it's so army dependent)

General advice though:
so far I've found command traits pretty useless and not really as useful for GK's

Personal traits for draigo can be pretty useful as it can make draigo scoring. Counterattack is also useful for paladins. Furious charge is again useful to kill more stuff though all this may mean is less rolls on psy table for hammerhand
Outflanking paladins is kind of fancy too though as a draigo list, not sure how you can deploy properly though if say you try to outflank like over 50% of your army in points lol

legendary fighter can be useful especially if you pull off draigo by himself to challenge other groups like sergeants. FnP can be redundent though.

Stragetic traits:

1 - useufl on some mats, 2 - sorta useful, as nightfight can help vs some high power shooty armies as you can't get shot at when at 36' if you are not searchlighted or the enemy have night fighting
3- not really useful
4- pretty useful as long as you have some reserves (especially if you want to keep somethings in reserve)
5- again, sorta useful
6 - personally I really like this but only useful if going first and trying to counter the enemy's deployment.

Overall - personal traits seem most useful for draigo.

So guys, tournament on Saturday I might try and hit.

Here is the list I am thinking so far

Draigo

10 Paladins
4 Psycannons, Banner, Apo, Psybolts

2 Paladins
hammer and halberd

Coteaz

Dreadknight
Incinerator & teleporter

Psyrifle Dread

total 1495

My 1750 list is basically the same with another Dread. Figure Coteaz should help vs fliers, hopefully won't run into Eldar.

That's basically what I played last weekend, except for scoring I went with cheap warrior acolytes in multiple squads.

I just came from playing vs wolves.

My list is:

Draigo
Coteaz

10 paladins 4 hammer 4 halberd 1 staff 1 banner, apo, psi ammo, 4 psicannons

10 purifiers 5 halberds 1 hammer 4 psicannons (would change 2 for 2 incinerators)

2 Jokaero, 1 crusader, 4 bolter guys, 5 psy guys

Stormraven assault cannon HB bolters and psi ammo

1850 points.

He had 3 of longfangs (2 with missiles, 1 with lasscannon), 4 guys on wolves, 3x10 marines, one in a pod,

He focused the shooting in the paladins, and managed to kill 4 in 5 turns. The purifiers killed 3 of the wolves guys + 2 wolves, and the one who was left was killed by the paladins. The paladins also killed the marines from the pod, who dropped in my base, and the henchmen hide from everything to get the 3 point of my base.

The raven was flying around killing longfangs, and they managed to make a hull point and another from internal damage that destroyed the HB.

I really really like paladins now, with the support of the raven.

I won 5 to 3 (made first blood and killed the warlord).

Are such small armies working out for people? daedalus, I reckon flyers and TH/SS will run all over your list. Dakota, I like yours more as it has anti-air support and a bit more numbers, but again, do you not find the small numbers a hindrance?

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Are such small units working out for people? daedalus, I reckon flyers and TH/SS will run all over your list. Dakota, I like yours more as it has anti-air support and a bit more numbers, but again, do you not find the small numbers a hindrance?

Keep your units hide, and your hard ones like the paladins contesting and stuff. The purifiers will go running too, but hiding.

If you hide all the time then you aren't going to be able to fight to your full potential. Sure Paladins are great but they can't fight whole armies all the time.

BTW, I mistyped, I meant to say small armies, not small units.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Are such small units working out for people? daedalus, I reckon flyers and TH/SS will run all over your list. Dakota, I like yours more as it has anti-air support and a bit more numbers, but again, do you not find the small numbers a hindrance?

Guess that would depend on how big of a TH/SS squad I have coming at me; given enough turns I think 4 psycannons and plenty of S5 Stormbolters would whittle them down, not to mention attacking first in a CC if they manage to get into it. Not to mention with Coteaz, it won't be hard to give everything Guide/Prescience so I am rerolling all of my hits, shooting and CC.

As for flyers, I am hoping the Paladin group along with Coteaz all rerolling misses might be able to knock them out of the air, but I don't know. Haven't run into too many so far.

If I really need to contest I can give my Dreadknight and Dreadnought Unyielding anvil, however I much prefer rerolling 1's on wounds; especially since in the vast majority of the time, I am rolling for 2s to wound.

More units would be better, but I like Paladins, what can I say

Flyers are absurdly difficult to kill so no matter what is shooting them, it will be inefficient. But, the Psycannon is still Str 7, 4 shots, making it one of the best rate of fire weapons in the game and massing them results in good anti-flyer, infantry and mech. Furthermore, if you are massing Psycannons you will most likely be massing infantry giving you another way to deal with flyers. By clogging the field you can determine where they will move to, this will also limit how many are actually able to get on the table. Coteaz is gold using such tactics as you can place him in the middle of the board and use his "i've been expecting you" to shoot down flyers as they come in. Coteaz + 4 Psycannons with re-rolls should be able to take care of most flyers, especially in conjunction with the Quadgun from the Aegis.

Psycannons seem to be, IMO, the biggest strength that GK possesses. There aren't many armies that can field over 60+ Str 7 shots easily.

So can Coteaz shoot at a Flyer when it comes in off the board within 12" from reserve?

That would be amazing.

Stoffer wrote:
Judging by the rules, yep.

Yea I just went and read that, wow. That is good.

Just don't tip your hand about the 12" range, or they will stop at 13", heh.

daedalus-templarius wrote:So can Coteaz shoot at a Flyer when it comes in off the board within 12" from reserve?

That would be amazing.

Judging by the rules, yep.

daedalus-templarius wrote:So can Coteaz shoot at a Flyer when it comes in off the board within 12" from reserve?

That would be amazing.

He can, but it isn't that amazing as his unit still needs 6's to hit.

BTW in response to your other post above, how exactly is it easy to get Prescience on everything? You can cast it on one unit. Attacking before TH/SS doesn't matter since you will struggle to bypass their saves, something they won't suffer in return; that's to mention that they are much cheaper.

I love Paladins too, but 5 tooled properly in a balanced list are better than a list of 10 with little else.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So can Coteaz shoot at a Flyer when it comes in off the board within 12" from reserve?

That would be amazing.

He can, but it isn't that amazing as his unit still needs 6's to hit.

BTW in response to your other post above, how exactly is it easy to get Prescience on everything? You can cast it on one unit. Attacking before TH/SS doesn't matter since you will struggle to bypass their saves, something they won't suffer in return; that's to mention that they are much cheaper.

I love Paladins too, but 5 tooled properly in a balanced list are better than a list of 10 with little else.

Presience is the primaris power for Divination, so you can give that to Coteaz, and you can buff you group of 10 paladins every turn pretty reliably I imagine. Rerolling all misses is pretty powerful when Psycannons are part of the equation, not to mention plenty of S5 bolters.

With a banner and Draigo, you are going to get an enormous amount of attacks, and with presience, you're rerolling those melee attacks as well; with a couple stacks of hammerhand (easy to get with Draigo and a paladin) you are now wounding on 2s, and if you take Draigo's power at the beginning to reroll 1s on wounds, you are now rerolling all of your missed wounds as well.

I'm not saying that a large group of TH/SS terminators wouldn't be hard as hell to kill, but if there are only 5; you're going to overload them pretty bad and the statistical probability for them to miss a few saves is pretty high.

I think the kind of list I am running has less of a problem killing things, and more of a problem moving around the board claiming objectives. Anything that gets near them, sans TH/SS terminators, is going to crumple like a wet paper sack pretty reliably underneath that kind of fire.

So you are saying a 700pts unit backed by a 300pt character and another 100pt character casting powers on them can smash face? Obviously they can, but exactly where is the tactical choice in spending 1100pts on a combo and only getting a fifth to a quarter of that back in one given turn?

Incidentally, that combo you mentioned kills ~6 TH/SS which means if there are anymore you may have to spend yet another turn to get 240pts. Should you be fighting a unit of 10 (which still isn't a fair comparison), they still kill 3 of your Paladins outright, and that's a bigger loss to you than those 6 dudes are to him.

And of course the other huge downside is that when you know that unit is over half the army all you have to do is throw bubble wrap at it each turn. And that's after they've gotten into their 24" threat range, which most other armies bar Necrons can sit outside of comfortably and fire away.

While I agree with your assertion, I doubt the unit would ever be 'making back' its points per turn. Its meant to be an immovable object, and move up the field to take an objective and hold it, or inexorably push an enemy back into a corner for more kill points. If this is a wise decision or not, I'm not particularly sure :p

I don't think I've ever seen a group of 10 TH/SS terms, at least not without LCs mixed in. But yes, that would be quite frightening to see. I'd only be able to hope that shooting them for a few turns would soften them up before they reached me.

As for sitting outside of my threat range, I haven't actually seen that happen yet; but that's not to say it wouldn't be possible.

daedalus-templarius wrote:While I agree with your assertion, I doubt the unit would ever be 'making back' its points per turn. Its meant to be an immovable object, and move up the field to take an objective and hold it, or inexorably push an enemy back into a corner for more kill points. If this is a wise decision or not, I'm not particularly sure :p

I'm not saying they need to make their points back every turn; why you would think this seems odd to me since it would be an impossible feat. However a unit like that needs to make their points back period to be effective, and if they are only getting 200pts a turn the chances of this happening are unlikely. Basically in 40k with big deathstars, to be fully effective they need to face other big deathstars and beat the tar out of them, because in the end this is a shooty game where assault is often at a disadvantage. As for taking an objective, that's great, you go send your 1100pts to take that one objective, and while they do that I'll ignore them and go take the other 2-5. I win.

daedalus-templarius wrote:As for sitting outside of my threat range, I haven't actually seen that happen yet; but that's not to say it wouldn't be possible.

It's obviously possible since you have 24" range on your guns. Most armies could deploy at 36-48" and sit back and shoot. Since you are going on foot you'd have to go about on average 4-6 turns before making combat, assuming the enemy is smart enough not to engage (and it doesn't take that much intelligence to figure it out). That's a whole game of walking. Sure you got to fire 4 Psycannons a turn, but you paid for the extra 6 guys who did nothing as well.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:While I agree with your assertion, I doubt the unit would ever be 'making back' its points per turn. Its meant to be an immovable object, and move up the field to take an objective and hold it, or inexorably push an enemy back into a corner for more kill points. If this is a wise decision or not, I'm not particularly sure :p

I'm not saying they need to make their points back every turn; why you would think this seems odd to me since it would be an impossible feat. However a unit like that needs to make their points back period to be effective, and if they are only getting 200pts a turn the chances of this happening are unlikely. Basically in 40k with big deathstars, to be fully effective they need to face other big deathstars and beat the tar out of them, because in the end this is a shooty game where assault is often at a disadvantage. As for taking an objective, that's great, you go send your 1100pts to take that one objective, and while they do that I'll ignore them and go take the other 2-5. I win.

And this is what I'd expect a smart opponent to do; but I do at least have other things that can take objectives as well; with Grandmaster abilities and Big Guns never tire. I agree that I don't have enough scoring units really, but I'd rather play at a larger point value regularly. Just for this tournament, its 1500.

daedalus-templarius wrote:As for sitting outside of my threat range, I haven't actually seen that happen yet; but that's not to say it wouldn't be possible.

It's obviously possible since you have 24" range on your guns. Most armies could deploy at 36-48" and sit back and shoot. Since you are going on foot you'd have to go about on average 4-6 turns before making combat, assuming the enemy is smart enough not to engage (and it doesn't take that much intelligence to figure it out). That's a whole game of walking. Sure you got to fire 4 Psycannons a turn, but you paid for the extra 6 guys who did nothing as well.

Well this will work on a kill points mission, but like you said before, you have to move to take objectives, and most of the time they are in range of the center of the table. If I ran into a castle'd up guard player sitting on the other side of the table and it was kill points, this could be a problem.

5/6 times armies can't take full advantage of hammer and anvil deploymentjust sit back and deploy 36 to 48" away because the game is objective based. Key long ranged units like a manticore can safely hide at the back of the deployment zone, but scoring units need to make their way forward to win.

Been thinking about a 5 paladin squad list, and I got this:

Draigo
Coteaz

6 paladin, 3 hammer, 2 halberd, 2 psycannons, psi ammo, apothecary with banner.

10 GKSS, 2 psycannons, psi ammo, justicar with hammer

7x henchmen with bolter, 2 jokaero

6x henchmen with bolter, 2 jokaero

10x purifiers, 5 halberds, 2 psycannons, 2 incinerators, justicar with hammer

Stormraven HB, AC, Hurricane bolters, psi ammo

1850 (it's the tournaments point in my zone)

I think the list will do pretty good, deepstriking the paladins, but I'll have to try it.

@daedalus; the objectives are only around the centre of the table if your opponent is stupid and puts them there. As most of the objective missions are equal objectives, the opponent can place his in his quarter, castle up, and blast you from afar. He's ok with the draw rather than getting smashed with Paladins, and is also aware that he could blast you off of your objective from range.

@schaden; see above.

@Dakota, I like that list. I'd get a second Raven myself, but at least you have one.

I've been thinking about this a lot...

What about a wall of crusaders envolving the paladins? I mean, moving with them and all, just covering them. Say, 8, for example.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:@daedalus; the objectives are only around the centre of the table if your opponent is stupid and puts them there. As most of the objective missions are equal objectives, the opponent can place his in his quarter, castle up, and blast you from afar. He's ok with the draw rather than getting smashed with Paladins, and is also aware that he could blast you off of your objective from range.

I'm not sure what to say at this point; I hope they don't put objectives in their quarter. With more points I'd be adding more flexible units, but at 1500 I'm a bit limited.

At 1750 I have another teleporting dreadknight, at 2000 I'd probably have a Stormraven and more paladins. Since I have Coteaz, I might start experimenting with some cheapo henchmen, but I haven't had a chance to really experiment with that yet.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:@daedalus; the objectives are only around the centre of the table if your opponent is stupid and puts them there. As most of the objective missions are equal objectives, the opponent can place his in his quarter, castle up, and blast you from afar. He's ok with the draw rather than getting smashed with Paladins, and is also aware that he could blast you off of your objective from range.

I'm not sure what to say at this point; I hope they don't put objectives in their quarter. With more points I'd be adding more flexible units, but at 1500 I'm a bit limited.

Thing is you aren't, the only limit placed on you is by yourself. The choice to take 10 Paladins is one thing, but tactically you are choosing to run them as a deathstar. You could easily just combat squad them instead of trying to one-trick-pony your opponent each game.

Let's take a look at the missions.

of the possible outcomes:

3/18 have no objectives
3/18 have one centrally placed objective
3/18 have 2 objectives - one in each half
2/18 have 3 objectives
2/18 have 4 objectives
2/18 have 5 objectives
3/18 have 6 objectives

Fully half the missions have 2 objectives or less. In 2/3 of the rest, fast attacks and heavy supports are scoring as well as troops.

Further 1/3 of the missions are great for the typical paladin deathstar. Both Purge and Relic play into the hands of any army that has one great big hard to kill unit that can easily reach mid-table. Piddling MSU units are going to struggle in these missions (relatively speaking) for obvious reasons.

Now in the

Can we stop getting our knickers in a knot about objective based missions please? Yes, some are harder than others (paradoxically the hardest is probably Emperor's Will where there are only two objectives, which will likely be widely spaced and an enemy rich in troops can hope to swarm both with contesting and scoring units) but with the average (mean) number of objectives that may only be claimed by troops running at just over 1/mission overall, combined with the possibility of using Grand Strategy to make non-troops scoring, a paladin-list actually has a number of options.

Note that I'm not saying that having a large number of troops/scoring units is not a viable build. Merely that such a build will struggle (relative term) in just as many missions as a paladin list will. You need to look beyond the truism that 5/6 missions have objectives and instead consider the proportion of missions where multiple objectives may be problematic for a particular paladin build (taking into account its supporting elements) and then compare that to the 1/3 of missions where any paladin build will have an advantage. Interestingly, the proportions are similar.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:@daedalus; the objectives are only around the centre of the table if your opponent is stupid and puts them there. As most of the objective missions are equal objectives, the opponent can place his in his quarter, castle up, and blast you from afar. He's ok with the draw rather than getting smashed with Paladins, and is also aware that he could blast you off of your objective from range.

I'm not sure what to say at this point; I hope they don't put objectives in their quarter. With more points I'd be adding more flexible units, but at 1500 I'm a bit limited.

Thing is you aren't, the only limit placed on you is by yourself. The choice to take 10 Paladins is one thing, but tactically you are choosing to run them as a deathstar. You could easily just combat squad them instead of trying to one-trick-pony your opponent each game.

Well, and if there are multiple objectives on the board... I will be combat squadding them!

I am running them in one in my list so they all get psybolts for 20 points and I have the flexibility to run them as a deathstar as well.

I'll be doing a few test games on Thursday with some friends, will report back on how it goes.

What about a wall of crusaders envolving the paladins? I mean, moving with them and all, just covering them. Say, 8, for example.

Well an enemy can just shoot through the crusaders and your paladins have a 5+ invulnerable anyway, so the cover does no good. Also the enemy gets to shoot down your 3+ invulnerable Crusaders with small arms that would otherwise do little damage to the 2+ armour save FNP paladins.


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Well, and if there are multiple objectives on the board... I will be combat squadding them!

Yes, that's the obvious thing to do in the 1/3 or so of the missions that you will probably need to claim more than one objective with the paladins

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

What about a wall of crusaders envolving the paladins? I mean, moving with them and all, just covering them. Say, 8, for example.

Well an enemy can just shoot through the crusaders and your paladins have a 5+ invulnerable anyway, so the cover does no good. Also the enemy gets to shoot down your 3+ invulnerable Crusaders with small arms that would otherwise do little damage to the 2+ armour save FNP paladins.

Is not the cover 4+?