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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 15:25:10
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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DakotaBlue wrote:Blood and Slaughter wrote:What about a wall of crusaders envolving the paladins? I mean, moving with them and all, just covering them. Say, 8, for example.
Well an enemy can just shoot through the crusaders and your paladins have a 5+ invulnerable anyway, so the cover does no good. Also the enemy gets to shoot down your 3+ invulnerable Crusaders with small arms that would otherwise do little damage to the 2+ armour save FNP paladins.
Is not the cover 4+?
Intervening models and most cover is 5+
Only ruins are 4+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 15:52:22
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
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daedalus-templarius wrote:DakotaBlue wrote:Blood and Slaughter wrote:What about a wall of crusaders envolving the paladins? I mean, moving with them and all, just covering them. Say, 8, for example.
Well an enemy can just shoot through the crusaders and your paladins have a 5+ invulnerable anyway, so the cover does no good. Also the enemy gets to shoot down your 3+ invulnerable Crusaders with small arms that would otherwise do little damage to the 2+ armour save FNP paladins.
Is not the cover 4+?
Intervening models and most cover is 5+
Only ruins are 4+
Hillside crests are 4+ as well. Standing on said hill is 5+
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I need to return some video tapes.
Skulls for the Skull Throne |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 16:02:31
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Dakka Veteran
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DakotaBlue wrote:Been thinking about a 5 paladin squad list, and I got this:
Draigo
Coteaz
6 paladin, 3 hammer, 2 halberd, 2 psycannons, psi ammo, apothecary with banner.
10 GKSS, 2 psycannons, psi ammo, justicar with hammer
7x henchmen with bolter, 2 jokaero
6x henchmen with bolter, 2 jokaero
10x purifiers, 5 halberds, 2 psycannons, 2 incinerators, justicar with hammer
Stormraven HB, AC, Hurricane bolters, psi ammo
1850 (it's the tournaments point in my zone)
I think the list will do pretty good, deepstriking the paladins, but I'll have to try it.
I quite like this one, the alternative being Henchmen with plasma guns or bolters firing out of chimeras. Henchmen with bolters are 5 points and 14 if you put a plasma gun on them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 16:13:28
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Stoffer wrote:DakotaBlue wrote:Been thinking about a 5 paladin squad list, and I got this:
Draigo
Coteaz
6 paladin, 3 hammer, 2 halberd, 2 psycannons, psi ammo, apothecary with banner.
10 GKSS, 2 psycannons, psi ammo, justicar with hammer
7x henchmen with bolter, 2 jokaero
6x henchmen with bolter, 2 jokaero
10x purifiers, 5 halberds, 2 psycannons, 2 incinerators, justicar with hammer
Stormraven HB, AC, Hurricane bolters, psi ammo
1850 (it's the tournaments point in my zone)
I think the list will do pretty good, deepstriking the paladins, but I'll have to try it.
I quite like this one, the alternative being Henchmen with plasma guns or bolters firing out of chimeras. Henchmen with bolters are 5 points and 14 if you put a plasma gun on them.
I don't like plasmas. They explode in my face every time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 16:15:29
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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When they explode in your face and you don't make the armor save, that plasma model is gone isn't it? I mean, you can't just have another guy 'pick up' the heavy weapon, can you?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 16:16:55
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Regular Dakkanaut
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daedalus-templarius wrote:When they explode in your face and you don't make the armor save, that plasma model is gone isn't it? I mean, you can't just have another guy 'pick up' the heavy weapon, can you?
That's it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 16:40:14
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Paladins aren't what they were. With the new rules disallowing the capture of multiple objectives with them they were weakened. Not to mention focus fire can still really mess up the squad. BLoS to Draigo and just shoot the Paladins with Str. 8.
Objectives and scoring squads really does need to be a focal point, if you are planning on playing competitively. The 5-objective NOVA format will still be widely used and bringing 3-4 scoring units simply isnt enough most of the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And 4 Psycannons with re-rolls, even hitting on 6's should be able to down most flyers. Thats around ~30 Str. 7 shots.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/08 16:41:20
Bee beep boo baap |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 16:44:36
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Dakka Veteran
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DakotaBlue wrote:daedalus-templarius wrote:When they explode in your face and you don't make the armor save, that plasma model is gone isn't it? I mean, you can't just have another guy 'pick up' the heavy weapon, can you?
That's it.
Yeah, that's the downside. Upside is that it's a ridiculously cheap unit that fires AP2 weapons.
The alternative setup I'm thinking of running is the bolter henchmen. 5 points for a guy with a bolter that can rapid fire isn't bad. 60 points for a 12 man scoring unit that rapid fires 24 bolter shots.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 17:28:11
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Dakka Veteran
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LValx wrote:And 4 Psycannons with re-rolls, even hitting on 6's should be able to down most flyers. Thats around ~30 Str. 7 shots.
4 Psycannons with Prescience gets on average ~5 hits. It should be enough against AV10 flier, will struggle to down AV11 and you'll be lucky to down AV12. This assuming they don't evade which grants them 5+ cover.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 17:49:54
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Luide wrote:LValx wrote:And 4 Psycannons with re-rolls, even hitting on 6's should be able to down most flyers. Thats around ~30 Str. 7 shots.
4 Psycannons with Prescience gets on average ~5 hits. It should be enough against AV10 flier, will struggle to down AV11 and you'll be lucky to down AV12. This assuming they don't evade which grants them 5+ cover.
+4
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 17:52:29
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Excited Doom Diver
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Is not the cover 4+?
Nope. 5+. It's in bold on p.18 under the heading 'Intervening Models'
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paladins aren't what they were. With the new rules disallowing the capture of multiple objectives with them they were weakened. Not to mention focus fire can still really mess up the squad. BLoS to Draigo and just shoot the Paladins with Str. 8.
Blocking Los to a single model from a whole squad shooting isn't always easy, in fact most often it's pretty hard. Also he can LOS! any member of the squad on 4+ as they're all characters. Further, although you can only control one objective, you can actually contest another at the same time (until, as I suspect they might, that's FAQ'd anyway).
Paladins are if anything stronger in 6th than in 5th, at least as far as a ten man squad with Draigo goes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
4 Psycannons with Prescience gets on average ~5 hits. It should be enough against AV10 flier, will struggle to down AV11 and you'll be lucky to down AV12. This assuming they don't evade which grants them 5+ cover.
the precise stats for 4 prescienced psycannon (ie 16 shots) firing at a flyer are:
vs AV10: chance to destroy = 78%, if flyer evades = 52%
vs AV11: chance to destroy = 58%, if flyer evades = 35%
vs AV12: chance to destroy = 32%, if flyer evades = 17%
which can reasonably be compared to say a vendetta's 3 TL BS3 skyfire lascannon. Not too shabby as AA goes.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/08 18:10:34
Follow these two simple rules to ensure a happy Dakka experience:
Rule 1 - to be a proper 40K player you must cry whenever a new edition of the game is released, and always call opposing armies broken when you don't win.
Rule 2 - Games Workshop are always wrong and have been heading for bankrupcy within 5 years since the early 90s. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 18:18:51
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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DakotaBlue wrote:Luide wrote:LValx wrote:And 4 Psycannons with re-rolls, even hitting on 6's should be able to down most flyers. Thats around ~30 Str. 7 shots.
4 Psycannons with Prescience gets on average ~5 hits. It should be enough against AV10 flier, will struggle to down AV11 and you'll be lucky to down AV12. This assuming they don't evade which grants them 5+ cover.
+4
Jink is 5+ unless you moved Flat-Out, then its 4+
Blood and Slaughter wrote:
Blocking Los to a single model from a whole squad shooting isn't always easy, in fact most often it's pretty hard. Also he can LOS! any member of the squad on 4+ as they're all characters. Further, although you can only control one objective, you can actually contest another at the same time (until, as I suspect they might, that's FAQ'd anyway).
Paladins are if anything stronger in 6th than in 5th, at least as far as a ten man squad with Draigo goes.
I thought Draigo just had to be the closest model to the enemy to take saves on him?
Can Draigo make saves for the rest of the group if he isn't the closest model somehow?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/08 18:21:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 18:26:58
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Dakka Veteran
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daedalus-templarius wrote:DakotaBlue wrote:Luide wrote:LValx wrote:And 4 Psycannons with re-rolls, even hitting on 6's should be able to down most flyers. Thats around ~30 Str. 7 shots.
4 Psycannons with Prescience gets on average ~5 hits. It should be enough against AV10 flier, will struggle to down AV11 and you'll be lucky to down AV12. This assuming they don't evade which grants them 5+ cover.
+4
Jink is 5+ unless you moved Flat-Out, then its 4+
Blood and Slaughter wrote:
Blocking Los to a single model from a whole squad shooting isn't always easy, in fact most often it's pretty hard. Also he can LOS! any member of the squad on 4+ as they're all characters. Further, although you can only control one objective, you can actually contest another at the same time (until, as I suspect they might, that's FAQ'd anyway).
Paladins are if anything stronger in 6th than in 5th, at least as far as a ten man squad with Draigo goes.
I thought Draigo just had to be the closest model to the enemy to take saves on him?
Can Draigo make saves for the rest of the group if he isn't the closest model somehow?
Look out sir!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 18:31:00
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Regular Dakkanaut
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When I start to make LOS to people who didn't fight Draigo yet, with him, they rage a lot. It's pretty fun. Automatically Appended Next Post: When I start to make LOS to people who didn't fight Draigo yet, with him, they rage a lot. It's pretty fun.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/08 18:31:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 18:41:35
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Stoffer wrote:
Look out sir!
So basically, every time Draigo isn't at the lead of the group/closed to the firing enemy, he has to LoS his retinue on a 4+?
Do you LoS before you roll a save? I thought it was post-save. I haven't had to do it all that much yet. Wait no, that makes no sense. After opponent rolls to wound, then you roll to LOS, then you save. It makes sense on the table, not as much trying to think about it right now.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/08 19:01:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/08 19:03:20
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Dakka Veteran
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daedalus-templarius wrote:Stoffer wrote:
Look out sir!
So basically, every time Draigo isn't at the lead of the group/closed to the firing enemy, he has to LoS his retinue on a 4+?
Do you LoS before you roll a save? I thought it was post-save. I haven't had to do it all that much yet. Wait no, that makes no sense. After opponent rolls to wound, then you roll to LOS, then you save. It makes sense on the table, not as much trying to think about it right now.
Well Draigo has a 2+ LOS, Paladins have a 4+ LOS. So even when he's not in the front, you can allocate wounds to him through LOS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 00:38:11
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Blood and Slaughter wrote:which can reasonably be compared to say a vendetta's 3 TL BS3 skyfire lascannon. Not too shabby as AA goes.
Except you are talking about a 260pts unit with a Psyker that is at least 55pts, making this combo a minimum of 315pts, whereas that Vendetta is 130pts. That's not reasonably comparable at all.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 04:22:11
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Godless-Mimicry wrote:Blood and Slaughter wrote:which can reasonably be compared to say a vendetta's 3 TL BS3 skyfire lascannon. Not too shabby as AA goes.
Except you are talking about a 260pts unit with a Psyker that is at least 55pts, making this combo a minimum of 315pts, whereas that Vendetta is 130pts. That's not reasonably comparable at all.
Well, you can't just pick and choose what to compare. An IC + 10 marines is more survivable than a vendetta. It also can score or deny and win combats. It's anti-Ground mech and infantry are also much higher. And with the Coteaz example he was talking about the unit can shoot multiple times out of sequence making it pretty effective at alpha striking multiple flyers.
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Bee beep boo baap |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 08:51:59
Subject: Re:6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Well, you can't just pick and choose what to compare. An IC + 10 marines is more survivable than a vendetta. It also can score or deny and win combats. It's anti-Ground mech and infantry are also much higher. And with the Coteaz example he was talking about the unit can shoot multiple times out of sequence making it pretty effective at alpha striking multiple flyers.
Only if you park cotez and friends at the enemy's board edge and that flier somehow always comes in within 12' of you.
You don't get to shoot them if they moved within 12' of you, only if they arrived within 12' of you. By the time the flier is on the board and then moves the 18'/36', it has already arrived from reserves and has started the movements.
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+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 09:09:03
Subject: Re:6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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sudojoe wrote:Well, you can't just pick and choose what to compare. An IC + 10 marines is more survivable than a vendetta. It also can score or deny and win combats. It's anti-Ground mech and infantry are also much higher. And with the Coteaz example he was talking about the unit can shoot multiple times out of sequence making it pretty effective at alpha striking multiple flyers.
Only if you park cotez and friends at the enemy's board edge and that flier somehow always comes in within 12' of you.
You don't get to shoot them if they moved within 12' of you, only if they arrived within 12' of you. By the time the flier is on the board and then moves the 18'/36', it has already arrived from reserves and has started the movements.
This is correct.
The flyer "enters from reserve" on the board edge, it then moves onto the board. So unless you're sitting in your opponent's deployment zone, you're not going to be able to get a free pot-shot at it. If you're sitting Coteaz and a deathstar in my DZ, I'll be zooming onto the board more than 12" away from you anyways, since most likely I'm going to angle my flyer to shoot it.
Secondly, Prescience is cast in your player turn, and expires at the end of your player turn (see page 9, 'a turn' refers to 'player turn' - correct me if I'm wrong, but Prescience only lasts for 'a turn'). Thus, when the enemy flyer comes onto the board, you don't get to re-roll your misses since his arrival from reserves occurs during his player turn.
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Click here for my Swap Shop post - I'm buying stuff!
DR:90-S++G++M+B++I+Pw40kPbfg99#+D++A++/eWDR++T(T)DM+
Black Legion/Iron Warriors/Night Lords Inquisitorial Friends & Co. (Inq, GK, Elysians, Assassins) Elysian Droptroops, soon-to-add Armored Battlegroup Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World Lucius
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 11:45:55
Subject: Re:6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
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Enigwolf wrote:sudojoe wrote:Well, you can't just pick and choose what to compare. An IC + 10 marines is more survivable than a vendetta. It also can score or deny and win combats. It's anti-Ground mech and infantry are also much higher. And with the Coteaz example he was talking about the unit can shoot multiple times out of sequence making it pretty effective at alpha striking multiple flyers.
Only if you park cotez and friends at the enemy's board edge and that flier somehow always comes in within 12' of you.
You don't get to shoot them if they moved within 12' of you, only if they arrived within 12' of you. By the time the flier is on the board and then moves the 18'/36', it has already arrived from reserves and has started the movements.
This is correct.
The flyer "enters from reserve" on the board edge, it then moves onto the board. So unless you're sitting in your opponent's deployment zone, you're not going to be able to get a free pot-shot at it. If you're sitting Coteaz and a deathstar in my DZ, I'll be zooming onto the board more than 12" away from you anyways, since most likely I'm going to angle my flyer to shoot it.
Secondly, Prescience is cast in your player turn, and expires at the end of your player turn (see page 9, 'a turn' refers to 'player turn' - correct me if I'm wrong, but Prescience only lasts for 'a turn'). Thus, when the enemy flyer comes onto the board, you don't get to re-roll your misses since his arrival from reserves occurs during his player turn.
I'm not saying your wrong, heck I might be wrong. I can't look at my BRB at work. But I think Malledictions and Blessings are cast in the same phase and end in the same phase.
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I need to return some video tapes.
Skulls for the Skull Throne |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 14:58:09
Subject: Re:6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
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Blessings and Maledictions state that they last until the following turn so this means they last 2 player turns. Prescience will work on the opposing player's turn and they are all cast during the movement phase so the powers do not expire in the movement phase.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 15:53:14
Subject: Re:6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Dakka Veteran
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Red Comet wrote:Blessings and Maledictions state that they last until the following turn so this means they last 2 player turns. Prescience will work on the opposing player's turn and they are all cast during the movement phase so the powers do not expire in the movement phase.
Interesting. The way it reads makes it look like you cannot use psychic powers outside of your turn anymore?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 16:16:11
Subject: Re:6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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Red Comet wrote:Blessings and Maledictions state that they last until the following turn so this means they last 2 player turns. Prescience will work on the opposing player's turn and they are all cast during the movement phase so the powers do not expire in the movement phase.
I stand corrected. That's actually pretty awesome!
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Click here for my Swap Shop post - I'm buying stuff!
DR:90-S++G++M+B++I+Pw40kPbfg99#+D++A++/eWDR++T(T)DM+
Black Legion/Iron Warriors/Night Lords Inquisitorial Friends & Co. (Inq, GK, Elysians, Assassins) Elysian Droptroops, soon-to-add Armored Battlegroup Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World Lucius
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 19:38:32
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Still doesn't make the Coteaz thing any better, since as stated, they will mostly be out of range anyway. And that's of course not taking into consideration that they still need 6's. Best case scenario is Coteaz standing around with 10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, and with Prescience that's just less than 5 hits, which against the likes of a Raven or Vendetta is just slightly less than 1 hull point taken. Nothing spectacular about that. And to top it off, all of this hinges on the opponent allowing you to do it.
Anyway, having played some more games, one thing that has become apparent is the importance of mobile, sturdy troops. I was runnng with two 10 man Strike Squads, allowing up to 4 troops, and 2 Razorbacks, but I always felt presure to not take damage to them. As such it feels like making Paladins scoring is even more important, and as such Draigo becomes an even better choice (on top of his already impressive resume).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/09 19:42:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 20:51:12
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
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I have been thinking about picking up Grey Knights. Ultimately I'm wanting to make a list consisting almost entirely of 1 model units.
Are 1 man paladin Squads useful as anything other then Suicide squads?
Does anybody have experience using Lord Karazamov and Solo Paladins for automatic hits with the Orbital Bombardment?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 21:25:26
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Thatguyoverthere wrote:I have been thinking about picking up Grey Knights. Ultimately I'm wanting to make a list consisting almost entirely of 1 model units.
Are 1 man paladin Squads useful as anything other then Suicide squads?
Does anybody have experience using Lord Karazamov and Solo Paladins for automatic hits with the Orbital Bombardment?
Well the most expensive a Paladin can be is 85pts, so making an army of them is pretty much impossible.
As for Karamazov, I don't see the point in using Paladins to get killed when you can just use a Stormraven that can be targeted by Karamazov but not hurt by the blast.
EDIT: Forgot, you could take single Apothecaries, as they cost a bomb each, but the army would be terrible.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/09 21:26:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 21:33:08
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
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They wouldn't be the entirety of the army. I'd plan on including and Assassin, A tech marine with a Conversion beamer, a Dread Knight, Driago, Karazamov and IG Allies so I can bring Marbo.
Using Karamazov would be primarily for hitting the Paladins when they're in melee with an enemy squad. D3 Large blasts centered in the center of a melee is sure to cause some carnage.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/09 21:34:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 22:05:04
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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Thatguyoverthere wrote:They wouldn't be the entirety of the army. I'd plan on including and Assassin, A tech marine with a Conversion beamer, a Dread Knight, Driago, Karazamov and IG Allies so I can bring Marbo.
Using Karamazov would be primarily for hitting the Paladins when they're in melee with an enemy squad. D3 Large blasts centered in the center of a melee is sure to cause some carnage.
If you really want to be funny with Karamazov, do it the way I did:
Draigo accompanies a Paladin squad to the enemy, then detaches from them and gets stuck in into melee with the enemy's biggest, most painful-looking deathstar unit. Drop Karamazov's Orbital Bombardment using Lance Strike ( Str 10 AP 1 blast) onto him. Draigo will take at most 1 wound if he fails his 3+ invul (Eternal Warrior), and pretty much everything around him will probably die (aside from Assault Terminators, who would most probably would have taken some casualties). Charge Paladin unit back into the melee to finish off what's left.
Troll and laugh.
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Click here for my Swap Shop post - I'm buying stuff!
DR:90-S++G++M+B++I+Pw40kPbfg99#+D++A++/eWDR++T(T)DM+
Black Legion/Iron Warriors/Night Lords Inquisitorial Friends & Co. (Inq, GK, Elysians, Assassins) Elysian Droptroops, soon-to-add Armored Battlegroup Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World Lucius
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/09 22:30:16
Subject: 6th Edition and GK changes - revisited
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Again why bother when you can drop it on a Raven's wing and the Raven suffers no ill effects?
BTW, ye do know you can't shoot into combat right, even if you are targetting your own guy?
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