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If Imperial titans behave kinda like battleship engagements, then Eldar should be like submarines - stealthy, able to position themselves unpredictably but fragile if caught.

The rules in the iceworld narrative scenario are probably a good place to look for inspiration for holofields.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Eldar Titans should function well without pushing. Pushing should be quite spectacular. But as it's literally the Pilot pushing their own mind, far riskier. Game winning in intensity, game ending in risk.

Alternately, pushing makes it more likely that the implanted spirit stones take over in a manner similar to what the machine spirit sometimes does in the Imperial Titans.

I could see eldar titans having no heat/reactor dice or machine spirit take over but instead have some form of concentration/circuit stability thing which would likely work similar but instead of random heat you spend concentration on actions, like say you get 6 on a titan, recover 1 a turn, it costs 2 use orders for move move or increasing shields. So its not random for eldar but they can be overloaded mentally from the strain of doing too much action.

But for Titandeath im kinda hoping we get 1-2 new titans listed for maniples

1-All hounds- likely gets some form of scouting movement or maniple could give access to ursus claws
2-"artillery maniple" 3 warbringers 2 warlords- even more gunline focused than Myrmidon
3- 2 reavers 2 hounds 1 warbringer- a simple maniple like axiom
4- Super light maniple- 3 hounds 2 of the rapier titans mentioned before- maybe gives access to outflank
5-2 warbringers - 3 hounds as some sort of spotting based groups, like warhounds work like the gryphonicus upgrade letting warbringers use hounds to either measure, or let the warbringers shoot at things out of line of sight aslong as hounds have sight

Eldar would probably get a lance weapon rule where they don't need more than like a 10+ for a direct hit. I was looking at Eldar 40k models at the store today and figured Wraithguard would make good Wraithknight proxies (using the rules for Cerastus Knights) and a Wraithlord would make a good Revenant (similar to a Warhound). I wish there was a model between a Wraithlord and Wraithknight to proxy as a match for a Reaver.

Eldar would likely be fairly fast, good shields and somewhat fragile. A bit of a glass cannon in that they can hit very hard but lack overall durability once exposed and caught.

Orks would be a good generalist brawler/skirmisher. Happy at range or close combat but not necessarily excelling in either on their own. They might have some powerful overcharge abilities which might feel broken or overpowered, but come with a higher degree of personal risk to use.

Tyranids would likely be fast to attack and have relatively low reliance on synapse since we are talking titans not grunt troops. They might well favour close combat weapons and might also have cheaper titans and thus be able to field more of them.

Tau would be the supreme ranged faction, most at home blasting away but most at risk with being hit in close combat. They might or might not be highly mobile; I would err on them not being all that mobile by and large. Able to dish out a lot of pain, but at risk of being more easily flanked and hit closer or just out manoeuvred.

 Overread wrote:
Eldar would likely be fairly fast, good shields and somewhat fragile. A bit of a glass cannon in that they can hit very hard but lack overall durability once exposed and caught.

Orks would be a good generalist brawler/skirmisher. Happy at range or close combat but not necessarily excelling in either on their own. They might have some powerful overcharge abilities which might feel broken or overpowered, but come with a higher degree of personal risk to use.

Tyranids would likely be fast to attack and have relatively low reliance on synapse since we are talking titans not grunt troops. They might well favour close combat weapons and might also have cheaper titans and thus be able to field more of them.

Tau would be the supreme ranged faction, most at home blasting away but most at risk with being hit in close combat. They might or might not be highly mobile; I would err on them not being all that mobile by and large. Able to dish out a lot of pain, but at risk of being more easily flanked and hit closer or just out manoeuvred.

Don't forget the Necrons...

Whatever they were to get is all but guaranteed to be very very nasty...

IIRC, the current official lore on the Dark Eldar is that they don't have anything that big. They're raiders, and titans don't exactly fit with their "get in, hit fast, and get out" tactics. But that can always change.

They probably do have things that fight in the Titan weight class, but they won’t be ‘Titans’ – think massive versions of their barges, holding hundreds of troops and thousands of captives, fitted with all the firepower a race capable of making a 2D bomb just to decapitate people can muster.

I’m thinking fast like craftworlders but not really built for turning corners. Has 360° fire arcs to compensate. Or at least weapon coverage in all sectors. Mostly focused on suppression and resource acquisition, so relatively low strength guns but with lots of side effects or special effects. Haywire, with effects similar to warp missiles except not ignoring shields and much shorter ranged, would be a staple, but concussion and quake can get in there too...

 Mr_Rose wrote:
They probably do have things that fight in the Titan weight class, but they won’t be ‘Titans’ – think massive versions of their barges, holding hundreds of troops and thousands of captives, fitted with all the firepower a race capable of making a 2D bomb just to decapitate people can muster.

I’m thinking fast like craftworlders but not really built for turning corners. Has 360° fire arcs to compensate. Or at least weapon coverage in all sectors. Mostly focused on suppression and resource acquisition, so relatively low strength guns but with lots of side effects or special effects. Haywire, with effects similar to warp missiles except not ignoring shields and much shorter ranged, would be a staple, but concussion and quake can get in there too...

Lore-wise, if the Dark Eldar ever go up against something that's defended heavily enough that there are titans among the defenders, then something has gone very, very wrong for the Dark Eldar.

Or there's something insanely important that the Dark Eldar are trying to get their hands on, and there is NO other way to do so. Dark Eldar raids are business ventures of a sort (piratical business ventures, mind you). And business ventures are all about maximizing profits while minimizing expenses. Going up against titans tends to dramatically increase the expenses.

In the original background, the Eldar titan clans were a separate society to the main Craftworld societies. They were based on Craftworlds, but separate in their organisation. With a bit of tweaking, I could see some of those clans being aligned to the different Kabals (or just independent, allying with Craftworlds, Exodites and Drukhari as they wish).

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I don't remember the tremor cannon being short ranged. It'd be good if they got their rule for multiple attacks against the same target increasing the damage like they had in 2nd edition.

The Sonic Lance (not Vibro Cannon as I previously called it, thats the support battery in 40K) has been a template weapon for some years now. Given that the fluff has changed quite a bit in the 20 years or so since Epic was last a thing it might not be the best of ideas to draw on such old sources that may well have been retconned some time ago.

It was Forge World who made the Sonic Lance what it is, they can always change it back.

Also, the Sonic Lance appears to be specifically the weapon used by the Revenant; still room to make the Phantom's tremor cannon a different thing.

I'm not particularly bothered one way or the other, but the old material has been the inspiration for a lot of Necromunda and Adeptus Titanicus, so we shall see ...

Eumerin wrote:
Lore-wise, if the Dark Eldar ever go up against something that's defended heavily enough that there are titans among the defenders, then something has gone very, very wrong for the Dark Eldar.

While that is true, that is also not to say it doesn’t/hasn’t/can’t happen. Or that DE don’t have vehicles of the appropriate weight class; after all they do occasionally kidnap populations of millions in one go, frequently without direct access to a webway gate.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
In the original background, the Eldar titan clans were a separate society to the main Craftworld societies. They were based on Craftworlds, but separate in their organisation. With a bit of tweaking, I could see some of those clans being aligned to the different Kabals (or just independent, allying with Craftworlds, Exodites and Drukhari as they wish).

I don't remember the details on the Phantoms. But the Eldar Knights were all from Exodite worlds, and therefore separate from the Craftworld armies that they were supporting by default in Epic.

Of course, the Imperial Knights of that game era were supposed to be used by humans colonists who lived in similar environments to the Exodites. I haven't kept up on the knight fluff, so I don't know how accurate that is these days.

Eumerin wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
In the original background, the Eldar titan clans were a separate society to the main Craftworld societies. They were based on Craftworlds, but separate in their organisation. With a bit of tweaking, I could see some of those clans being aligned to the different Kabals (or just independent, allying with Craftworlds, Exodites and Drukhari as they wish).

I don't remember the details on the Phantoms. But the Eldar Knights were all from Exodite worlds, and therefore separate from the Craftworld armies that they were supporting by default in Epic.

Of course, the Imperial Knights of that game era were supposed to be used by humans colonists who lived in similar environments to the Exodites. I haven't kept up on the knight fluff, so I don't know how accurate that is these days.

That’s still… mostly true. Knight Worlds are generally feudal/high-medieval in tone, with native megafauna big enough that Knights and Armigers are the only practical mounts for herding them. The resident humans maintain a tech level which is relatively backwards compared to the greater Imperium, excepting the Knights (owned by the nobility of course) which have an entire caste of hereditary technicians to maintain them. Depending on their alliance with either the Adeptus Mechanicus or the Adeptus Terra, the individual Knight Worlds may have different technologies and attitudes but their general position is pastoral farmer turned up to eleven, with chainsaws and giant mecha, supplying food to their allies as well as fighting alongside them, in exchange for the materiel and training to maintain their current lifestyles.

The only real change (or at least, it's not mentioned; not contradicted, so it could still be a thing if you want) is that human and elder Knight houses / clans often shared planets - the Knight suits were as much for fighting off uppity aliens as for wrangling dinosaurs.

I suppose the idea that the Imperial Guard sentinel is derived from the lighter vehicles used by the human peasantry on knight worlds is something else that's gone. Replaced by Armigers.

Eldar titans are (or were, back in the golden age of Codex Titanicus) run by families, with the ancestors of the current three man crew inhabiting the spirit circuit. As I remember it anyway.

IIRC Imperial Armour: Doom of Mymaera has both Revenant and Phantom titans piloted by a single individual. They're basically a Warrior Aspect, with Phantom pilots being Exarchs.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

I suppose the idea that the Imperial Guard sentinel is derived from the lighter vehicles used by the human peasantry on knight worlds is something else that's gone. Replaced by Armigers.

They need fast moving unit to keep up with the knights and help with the flank, the Sentinel or even a Skiktarii dragoon move like a sloth compared to an Armiger

 Stormonu wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Out of the Xenos, I’m curious to see what they would do for Tau, as their original fluff had them abhorring Titans as being too specialized (i.e., big) for practical use. It’d be interesting if they kept that ideal, with battle suits no larger than Knights, but hitting well above their size class (especially if attacking in tandem, like the old Eldar Fire Prism tanks).

That ship sailed ages ago and the lore bit you mention is dead since abomination that was 6th edition Tau book:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NZ/Tau-KX139-Ta%27unar-Supremacy-Armour

Well, comparing, the Ta'unar is knight-sized (not even as big as a warhound), so they've bent but not broken that just yet.

Uh, what? Stormsurge is knight sized, Taunar is just as big as Warhound (well, slightly lower, but accounting for the guns on top it's even taller), and the 3 top guns are all bigger than Warhound turbolasers. At best you can argue Taunar is slightly lighter class, mounting 1 gun on top heavier than Warhound arm guns, with the two arm guns being 'light' titan weapons, but no more than that IMO...

I think my main struggle with picturing how other Titans might work, is that I've only ever played with and against them in a 'full' Epic game - never just Titan on Titan.

I'm finding that lack of experience somewhat stymies the imagination.

But I think the sensible position is to treat Imperial Titans as the baseline 'Joe Average'. Other species should be better in some area, weaker in others. To what degree? That really is the big question!

For instance, Eldar absolutely should be swift and overall more nippy. That allows a canny player to keep out of LoS and LoF of enemy Titans, offsetting the natural and typical fragility.

However, that shouldn't be to the point where one can only really tackle an Eldar Titan if the owning player stuffs up. Those sorts of game (all skirmish in Warhammer vs Blocks) are just plain dull for at least one player, as you simply cannot match the nippiness of the enemy, and they can only deliver Death By A Thousand Cuts.

One reason Imperials are, esp as titans, often jacks of all trades is because they have more of them than anyone else. Many of the other factions only had a handful of titans and thus they were very specialist whilst the Imperial line is far more developed. Once you've added a large number they gain a general ability to deal with any situation as they want

On my first point? I completely forgot the other 'complete sod' of fighting Eldar Titans. The Titan Aiming dice, and them being really, really skinny models.

You might make the roll to hit, sure. Only for the Titan Aiming Dice to land you off their chart, resulting in a miss. This was especially pronounced if you were trying to knack their Holofield Generators. If you roll a left or a right, you missed entirely. No save needed, the shot just never landed.

That in itself was pretty powerful, and fairly frustrating. It was also a boon enjoyed by Warhounds, as their profile was pretty tiddly.

That was offset (a bit) by the fact that template weapons ignored holofields. (I always went for a central location - always better to get some kind of hit rather than none at all).

I agree you don't want the eldar titans to be so awesome they are an auto-win, but it'll be a tricky one to balance.

Perhaps Eldar should be better at placed shots? Represent their preference for precision over bludgeoning?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

I suppose the idea that the Imperial Guard sentinel is derived from the lighter vehicles used by the human peasantry on knight worlds is something else that's gone. Replaced by Armigers.

IIRC, Sentinels predate Adeptus Titanicus, to say nothing of Epic and Space Marine. IIRC, they first appeared with the initial 40K Imperial Guard list waaaaaaaay back in the pre-2nd Edition days.

Along with Rough Riders and Ogryn.

Eldar Titan can leap over a building and blast a Titan in the rear , but since the rule writer of this game deliberately went out of his way to disregard common sense for balance they'd probably end up with weird rule.

Eumerin wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

I suppose the idea that the Imperial Guard sentinel is derived from the lighter vehicles used by the human peasantry on knight worlds is something else that's gone. Replaced by Armigers.

IIRC, Sentinels predate Adeptus Titanicus, to say nothing of Epic and Space Marine. IIRC, they first appeared with the initial 40K Imperial Guard list waaaaaaaay back in the pre-2nd Edition days.

Along with Rough Riders and Ogryn.

Yes. Their mention in the Imperial Knights article in WD 125 would be a retcon.

As for being as fast as an Imperial knight, I don't think the maximum off-road speed of either has been published, so it's a rather moot point. Also, it wouldn't need to keep up with a Knight - it only needs to keep up with a herd of herbivorous dinosaurs.


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Chopstick wrote:
Eldar Titan can leap over a building and blast a Titan in the rear , but since the rule writer of this game deliberately went out of his way to disregard common sense for balance they'd probably end up with weird rule.

Pfft. I remember when Warlords could do that too. Not sure what you're referring to about "common sense", though.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Perhaps Eldar should be better at placed shots? Represent their preference for precision over bludgeoning?

That's a really good thought, maybe another move after the shooting phase?

Chopstick wrote:
...Eldar Titan can leap over a building and blast a Titan in the rear...

...and do it in slow motion, then turning their back on their fallen foe and as it explodes the Eldar titan swaggers away.

Ah the good ol'days when Michael Bay worked for Gamesworkshop!

Fortunately, unbalancing xenos titans are probably years away, if they ever even happen for AT.