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I think Allarus Terminators should have a 3++, you can bet they're going to be costed at a premium if they're taken in squad sizes of 1-3, they should have the durability to match. Just having an extra wound over a regular spear Custodian Guard isn't enough. Terminators across other armies already have enough problems surviving after deep strike, at the very least it'll make Allarus Terminators harder to remove and maybe even worth their price depending on what else they bring to the table (something you can't really say about other kinds of Terminators, being way overcosted).

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I think Allarus Terminators should have a 3++, you can bet they're going to be costed at a premium if they're taken in squad sizes of 1-3, they should have the durability to match. Just having an extra wound over a regular spear Custodian Guard isn't enough. Terminators across other armies already have enough problems surviving after deep strike, at the very least it'll make Allarus Terminators harder to remove and maybe even worth their price depending on what else they bring to the table (something you can't really say about other kinds of Terminators, being way overcosted).

I'd imagine their route to a 3++ would be to take Storm Shields and swords. Otherwise they'll have a 4++ with spears in a pure detachment.

In all this leaking does anyone know if you can take Storm Shields with the axe?

Audustum wrote:

 Darkwrath121 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I am super surprised the leaders only have a 5++. Why would they be worse than marines?

It's a 4++ with the faction bonus. Effectively the same. Lore-wise they just don't wear Iron Halos.

Actually, Shield-Captains in lore make heavy use of Iron Halos, as do the higher ranking Tribunate. Every Custodian has a refractor field or better.
(In fact, you can spend 10pts in 30k to increase their invuln from 4++ to 3++)

I think they may have kept the Shield-Captain as having just a refractor field for balance sake. And with the +1 invuln it balances out

I guess I meant more for the lore of the models we're fielding here. For whatever reason, these guys left theirs at home.

Yeah. Not sure why Shield-Captains left their Iron Halos at home. Maybe they just wanted a challenge

We don't know yet that the Allarus Terminators don't have a 4++ base. It would seem odd given their armour is based off of cataphracti terminator armour for their base inv. to only be 5++. Given the points they are likely to cost I'd expect a 3++ to be honest!

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
We don't know yet that the Allarus Terminators don't have a 4++ base. It would seem odd given their armour is based off of cataphracti terminator armour for their base inv. to only be 5++. Given the points they are likely to cost I'd expect a 3++ to be honest!

Well, as we were saying above, while it's weird that cataphractii armour might have a 5+, the leaks guy has been right about everything so far.

The +1 invuln while battleforged cancels it out. Also, a 3++ is more than a bit excessive in an army of potentially teleporting Telemon dreadnoughts. I believe making them have a 5++ save is a way of preventing them getting that 3++

A 4++ would do just fine

Guyver 3 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
To be fair, the Changling could cover a LOT more units/models just due to the fact that Daemons are cheaper.

I don’t dispute that the changling rule wasn’t great and really strong, just annoyed that it got completely nerfed but another army essentially gets the same rule within days!

Funny that, that is exactly what GW did killing conscripts/comissars then giving the exact same rule, unchanged, to Tyranids and Eldar

berng able to take the termies in units of 1 for easy vanguard etachments could be really handy given how dear CPs are likely to be to custodes.

Frankly, relying on a bonus to take you to where you should be by default?

Means it isn't actually a bonus.

changemod wrote:
Frankly, relying on a bonus to take you to where you should be by default?

Means it isn't actually a bonus.

Beg to differ, but the alternative is them starting with a 4++ and getting autobuffed to a 3++. I would not wish that cheese on my opponent even if I hated them xD

changemod wrote:
Frankly, relying on a bonus to take you to where you should be by default?

Means it isn't actually a bonus.

I mean, if you REALLY want to petition GW to make an entire army 3++ I think we'd support you but I can't imagine the other factions will be pleased...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Darkwrath121 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Darkwrath121 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I am super surprised the leaders only have a 5++. Why would they be worse than marines?

It's a 4++ with the faction bonus. Effectively the same. Lore-wise they just don't wear Iron Halos.

Actually, Shield-Captains in lore make heavy use of Iron Halos, as do the higher ranking Tribunate. Every Custodian has a refractor field or better.
(In fact, you can spend 10pts in 30k to increase their invuln from 4++ to 3++)

I think they may have kept the Shield-Captain as having just a refractor field for balance sake. And with the +1 invuln it balances out

I guess I meant more for the lore of the models we're fielding here. For whatever reason, these guys left theirs at home.

Yeah. Not sure why Shield-Captains left their Iron Halos at home. Maybe they just wanted a challenge

"They don't make Xenos like they used too!"

"Used too?"

"Yeah, like, 10,000 years ago or something. I dunno, look, I got drunk and lost it in the throne room"

Why does this invul-enhancing rule exist?

It seems so backwards.

A rule that gives them +1 to their invul saves. Why not just give them a higher Invul save to begin with and forget having yet another redundant special rule?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why does this invul-enhancing rule exist?

It seems so backwards.

A rule that gives them +1 to their invul saves. Why not just give them a higher Invul save to begin with and forget having yet another redundant special rule?

Looks like its a detachment bonus for having a detachment of nothing but custodes.
Its probably so that if you have a mixed detachment with just a single unit of custodes, they won't have 4+ invuls.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why does this invul-enhancing rule exist?

It seems so backwards.

A rule that gives them +1 to their invul saves. Why not just give them a higher Invul save to begin with and forget having yet another redundant special rule?

well it makes it easier to remove I guess

but agree, 8th seemed to start out nicely with none of the "special" rules BS that when you followed the rule, that just said another rule applied and that turned out to be a +/-1 on your profile by just changing the profile

It's because Emperor's Chosen only applies to infantry and bikers, so vehicles like the Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought and Land Raider (or whatever new vehicle Custodes may or may not get) will still get Aegis of the Emperor but no bonus to their invulnerable save for balance I'm assuming.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why does this invul-enhancing rule exist?

It seems so backwards.

A rule that gives them +1 to their invul saves. Why not just give them a higher Invul save to begin with and forget having yet another redundant special rule?

It basically reads: "Custodes played in a soup list have their invul saved reduced by one so everyone doesn't just pick them over their flavor of terminator".

GW wants you to play an entire detachment of shiny golden men if you want to have nigh-indestructible elite units.

 Jidmah wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why does this invul-enhancing rule exist?

It seems so backwards.

A rule that gives them +1 to their invul saves. Why not just give them a higher Invul save to begin with and forget having yet another redundant special rule?

It basically reads: "Custodes played in a soup list have their invul saved reduced by one so everyone doesn't just pick them over their flavor of terminator".

GW wants you to play an entire detachment of shiny golden men if you want to have nigh-indestructible elite units.

Eh, I mean...you only need 4 models to get a full custodes detachment now right? With the min unit size of the troop going down to 3. At least I think it was the troops.

 Darkwrath121 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Frankly, relying on a bonus to take you to where you should be by default?

Means it isn't actually a bonus.

Beg to differ, but the alternative is them starting with a 4++ and getting autobuffed to a 3++. I would not wish that cheese on my opponent even if I hated them xD

You mean like Storm Shield Terminators? Those aren't exactly tearing up the competitive scenes these days. Let's face it, Custodes Terminators are basically just two normal terminators mashed into one, and double the price. Giving them a 3++ would not have been overpowered. Perhaps they have a feel no pain equivalent?

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Darkwrath121 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Frankly, relying on a bonus to take you to where you should be by default?

Means it isn't actually a bonus.

Beg to differ, but the alternative is them starting with a 4++ and getting autobuffed to a 3++. I would not wish that cheese on my opponent even if I hated them xD

You mean like Storm Shield Terminators? Those aren't exactly tearing up the competitive scenes these days. Let's face it, Custodes Terminators are basically just two normal terminators mashed into one, and double the price. Giving them a 3++ would not have been overpowered. Perhaps they have a feel no pain equivalent?

I wasn't aware we knew the points costs yet?

 Darkwrath121 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Frankly, relying on a bonus to take you to where you should be by default?

Means it isn't actually a bonus.

Beg to differ, but the alternative is them starting with a 4++ and getting autobuffed to a 3++. I would not wish that cheese on my opponent even if I hated them xD

You're thinking about it slightly upside down: being deprived something so that the bonus gives it instead is equivalent to not getting a bonus in the first place.

Honestly I'd suggest that if that results in too high an invuln on terminators and HQs and your only categories of infantry are the aforementioned, two types of power armour guys and bikers, you might have picked the wrong faction-wide buff in the first place. It effectively only buffs three units.

so in my opinon the low INV saves are really needed. i have always loved playing small elite armies. but the glaring problem is duribility. an army with 16 models or so istn going to have over whelming fire power. and even if every hit in CC kills large armies can still throw squads in to slwo thrm down and not lose many points. what really makes an elite army is its ability to take punishment and deal it out. because when a super small army looses a squad its a huge deal. but a large army doesnt care.

honestly i think its a step in the right direction. i love playing terminator armies, but the duribility was never enough.

Agreed, as they are Terminators in general just aren't durable enough for what they're costed considering how many things in the game can kill elite units with ease, even ones with Storm Shields can wither against sheer number of shots from Assault Cannons and the like. At the very least a 3++ would actually make them worth taking compared to a 4++ and would help make Adeptus Custodes a true elite army that might actually be semi-viable to run.

It all depends on points so no need to cry out for a buff just yet. If they're only say 10-15 points more than Custodian Guardsmen for the extra wound, deepstrike and grenade launcher we will see heaps of them.

Of course they may also be 40 points more, point is we don't know yet. Remember GW will want to sell them so I wouldn't be surprised if they are priced competitively in spite of being Terminators.

So, AC deep strike stratagem is a thing. Cool. No one else has said this yet, so I guess I'll be that guy: the Custodes Deep Strike list is officially the Golden Shower, right?

On a more serious note, this list looks like it's going to be a lot of fun. IDK about competitive, but it'll be a blast for sure. One more thing on my list I guess. That list really is getting too long at this point...

Well, it will be nice to show up to a game with a tiny carrying case (minimal effort), being able to deploy in under 2 minutes (minimal effort and time), and have a game last 50% as long as normal.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Looks like its a detachment bonus for having a detachment of nothing but custodes.
Its probably so that if you have a mixed detachment with just a single unit of custodes, they won't have 4+ invuls.

Why make rules that incentivise not using certain aspect of the rules?

-OR-

Why make rules that punish you for using certain aspect of the rules?

What I'm trying to say that if the game is already so broken this early into its lifespan that they have to bribe people with powerful rules to stop them from abusing the shonky allies rules, then we're in trouble.

 Galas wrote:
The reason I believe Sisters of Silence can't work is because they have the Grey Knight problem to the extreme. They can't be balanced both agaisn't a heavy Psyker army and a non-psyker army. Agaisnt things like Tau or Necrons they will be overpaying for a innate-antipsychic defense that they aren't gonna use.
Is not a "fluff" reason for them to not be their stand alone faction, but a gameplay reason.

Actually there IS way for that to work though not common and doubtful GW would go but...Basically in game of SoS vs psykers opposing psykers would get boosted up somehow. Would feel bit backwards with beneficitial rule for psyker army being on opponent's codex but doable and GW did similar thing with daemon hunters of 3rd ed.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Looks like its a detachment bonus for having a detachment of nothing but custodes.
Its probably so that if you have a mixed detachment with just a single unit of custodes, they won't have 4+ invuls.

Why make rules that incentivise not using certain aspect of the rules?

-OR-

Why make rules that punish you for using certain aspect of the rules?

What I'm trying to say that if the game is already so broken this early into its lifespan that they have to bribe people with powerful rules to stop them from abusing the shonky allies rules, then we're in trouble.

How is GW actually realizing problems and taking countermeasures "trouble"?

I think it's an elegant solution. In any game that has some sort of list building, cherry picking is always superior to playing a mono faction/army/color build unless the game implements some rules that provide benefits for those that do.

It's questionable whether GW is properly balancing those benefits against the advantages of cherry picking, but the path is the right one.

 Jidmah wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Looks like its a detachment bonus for having a detachment of nothing but custodes.
Its probably so that if you have a mixed detachment with just a single unit of custodes, they won't have 4+ invuls.

Why make rules that incentivise not using certain aspect of the rules?

-OR-

Why make rules that punish you for using certain aspect of the rules?

What I'm trying to say that if the game is already so broken this early into its lifespan that they have to bribe people with powerful rules to stop them from abusing the shonky allies rules, then we're in trouble.

How is GW actually realizing problems and taking countermeasures "trouble"?

I think it's an elegant solution. In any game that has some sort of list building, cherry picking is always superior to playing a mono faction/army/color build unless the game implements some rules that provide benefits for those that do.

It's questionable whether GW is properly balancing those benefits against the advantages of cherry picking, but the path is the right one.

What game are you actually arguing against or are you just making up some fictional non-GW game? 40k atm is basically the only example of this. Malifaux primarily has in-faction armies due to how most auras or other buffs work. Warmachine has some mercs but again most bonuses are given to in-faction stuff. WFB (RIP) had basically no useful allies. The fact is MOST games want people to collect and use single factions.

This could only be elegant if you assume the entire gaming universe consists of 1 game... 40k. Custodes will probably be a very niche army as I don't believe GW understands how awful the game is for elite armies. Point for point they simply aren't competitive since GW refuses to increase # of shots / attacks for more expensive models.

Well, I dunno about shots yet but all Custodes seem to have 3-5 attacks per model. Since they hit on 2's and can re-roll 1's that seems pretty good for speedy chopping.

If you really can strap Hurricane Bolters to all the bikes that should help too. They might have the volume an elite army should.

3 attacks hitting on a 2+ is equivalent to 6 attacks hitting on a 3+ in terms of reliability.

Upside is the 2+ is less affected by -1 to hit etc.

Downside is the 6 attacks still have the potential to become 6 unsaved wounds (before damage multipliers, natch) But there's still a lot to be said for the sheer reliability of everyone hitting on a 2+.

I'll be wanting to see how the synergy all works out, and indeed the ranges on buff bubbles. When you're a small, elite army, you don't want to have to keep everyone bunched up to stand a chance, as you're forced to cede a large chunk of the board to your enemy.

I'm also hoping that Custodes will have ways to tinker with enemy Ld values. Given their own resilience, being able to wallop Hordes with Battleshock is a useful trick - rapidly cuts down the number of models one actually has to formally job if you can really maximise the effect of the Brown Trousers phase, no?

But there also needs to be acceptance that there should be some armies they can't just simply kerb stomp. I mean, they'll do an absolute number on other small, elite armies - so they shouldn't be completely 'no-brain' effective against all Hordes.