40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Inevitable_Faith**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Here's the disconnect I have with your argument though HBMC: The scarabs and tervigon extra models were not summoning.

The premise of my argument is that "Generating models during a game = Summoning". If that turns out to be a false premise, and that they are infact talking about summoning Daemons, as opposed to just the generation of new miniatures, then that's fine. In that instance you'll be 100% right, my argument will be flawed and I will in fact be fine with that.

My concern is that GW has looked at summoning Daemons and gone "Summoning bad! GW SMASH!" and just done this to anything that generates any miniatures in complete over reaction (ie. fixing the general rule when it was a specific rule causing the problem).

Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Summon spam lists that wrecked tourneys were psychic summoning, these two units are not that. It's entirely possible that both the Tervigon and Canoptec spider have retained their ability to reinforce or make new units of scarabs and termagaunts, if this is the case I'd imagine a small portion of the points cost of these units may be rolled into the cost of the Tervigon and Spider themselves. I fully expect to see a model reinforcement mechanic to be built into both the Tervigon and Spider, neither of which we've seen the rules for yet so we have no way of knowing for sure at this time. What we do know is that psychic summoning has been changed a lot and in my opinion much to the benefit of the game. I feel you've seen a portion of a rule for one mechanic (psychic daemon summoning), correlated it to another unrelated mechanic (Tervigon birthing and spider scarab reinforcement) and somehow come to the conclusion that this is punishing armies? Perhaps you've jumped the gun on this?

Psychic summoning absolutely needed the axe, it was a ridiculous implementation from the get-go. The new method is much more reliable, maintains the tactical versatility of being able to select the right daemon for the job and since you pay points for those daemons is much more balanced, from what we've seen I'd say it's a win all around. You may disagree that the new summoning system is an improvement and that's definitely a matter worth discussing and looking in to even with our very limited knowledge of it right now but I feel that discussion has little (if anything) to do with the mechanics of a Tervigon, Canoptek Spider or even a Ghost Ark for that matter. The latter three will have rules specific to them that will dictate how they function apart from the core Daemon summoning rules.

I don't disagree with any of this, and I fully admit that we don't know what Tervigons or Tomb Spyders or any of them are actually going to do yet. I am simply expressing a concern that stems from an educated guess using GW's prior behaviour when it comes to "balancing".

I've also fully acknowledge that the constantly Daemon summoning was a bad thing, so people need to stop coming back at me was "But Daemon summoning was breaking the game! This change needed to happen!". I get it, but as I have said numerous times in this thread in one way or another, just because I'm concerned for an 8th Ed rules ---does not mean--- I am advocating for 7th Ed rules.

I believe I understand your point a lot more clearly now HBMC, when I read the summoning teaser info I jumped straight to the psychic summoning of Daemons and didn't even consider that it may apply to other means of generating models. To me at least it was strictly a teaser on new Daemon summoning and other model generation methods would remain as individual rules specific to the unit they come with. If GW does indeed apply this general summoning principle to every army in the game that can generate models then I'd tend to agree with you that it seems a bit heavy-handed. My hope is that the Ghost Ark, Spider and Tervigon all have unique rules specific to themselves that take their unique method of model generation into account on their profile and that the summoning teaser we saw would apply exclusively to Daemon summoning. We can't say either way at the moment but GWs attitude and implementation of this edition seems to be counter to their history over past years and so I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll roll out these features with a bit more finesse than they have previously. For now it's a "wait and see" game but I'm glad I was able to understand your point much more clearly all the same.

**puree**

Ghaz wrote:
They're still 'free models'. I don't see a reason why 'free models' should be treated differently due to the name of the rule.

As HMBC says, context.

If you can just place new units down then you have much more flexibility than replacing casualties in new units.

If a unit is dead you can't add to it. hence ability is no longer useful.
If the unit hasn't taken casualties you can't add to it.

Putting down a new unit can be huge in terms of suddenly blocking enemy units, or grabbing objectives etc.

Of course in some cases it may be that casualty replacement is very potent, but they are different rules with different affects in a turn limited objective based matched game, so treating them the same does not seem better then treating them different.

**Vorian**

kodos wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
They're still 'free models'. I don't see a reason why 'free models' should be treated differently due to the name of the rule.

because GW thinks summoning is the problem and not free models in general
the same as a multi faction death star is evil but a single faction death star is not

the same people don't like too much randomness and GW thinks this is what makes the game fun in the first place

To be fair, that's stuff you've invented.

They've talked about free models and death stars.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Whether it's Daemon Summoning or spawning new units, seems it's all done out of your allotted points now.

Summoning in AoS remains useful because you don't buy units to summon, just put aside points. That of course means you're in with the chance to summon exactly the right kind of unit you need to tip the balance, but at the obvious risk of fielding a far smaller force from the outset.

From what I've read, seems 40k is doing it in an identical way - though I suspect the Tervigon will just become a transport.

**changemod**

To be fair, Scarabs became kinda overcosted and slightly nerfed at the same time in the 7th codex. I assumed that was intentional because you could spawn free ones into an existing unit.

**Lysenis**

Just a thought but what if the "Reinforcement generators" (tervigon, etc) have abilities that reduce the cost of what they bring out? Let's say if a guants is 8 points you get it for 4-6? Per gaunt? What if it was 2-4?

We just don't know enough yet. Now I am likely foot in mouth here but who knows.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know what I want to see? The tervigon allowinga special weapon to appear with its spawnlings. Like the Web gun or something for X more points. Give her versatility! Make her more than Mama Gaunt! Makes Mama Gaunt and the Dangerous Spawnings!

**gungo**

It could also just reproduce units you already paid for. So if you paid for 40 and 20 died. You can spawn 20 again.

**Formosa**

Having read the last few pages, I'm quite shocked people are defending a rule that should never have existed period .

Free models, regardless of source, should not have been added to the game, it's been a headache since the tervigon originally dropped, deamon summon spam just exposed the issue even more.

**theocracity**

Formosa wrote:
Having read the last few pages, I'm quite shocked people are defending a rule that should never have existed period .

Free models, regardless of source, should not have been added to the game, it's been a headache since the tervigon originally dropped, deamon summon spam just exposed the issue even more.

What about older rules like Send In the Next Wave for conscripts? I would hope there are exceptions for fluffy rules like that in Narrative scenarios at least, to represent overwhelming waves of infantry or demonic invasions.

One thing to consider is that on an abstract level there's not that much difference between a Tervigon spawning a Termagant to replace a dead one vs the Tervigon providing an extra save for the Gant so it doesn't die in the first place. I'm thinking of Ressurection Protocols work for Necron. We could see the Tervigon (and other similar units) shift to work like that, if unit replacement is off the table.

**JohnU**

theocracity wrote:

What about older rules like Send In the Next Wave for conscripts? I would hope there are exceptions for fluffy rules like that in Narrative scenarios at least, to represent overwhelming waves of infantry or demonic invasions.

I believe they confirmed in one of the FB posts that Meatgrinder would be in, which would do just that.

**Ghaz**

theocracity wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Having read the last few pages, I'm quite shocked people are defending a rule that should never have existed period .

Free models, regardless of source, should not have been added to the game, it's been a headache since the tervigon originally dropped, deamon summon spam just exposed the issue even more.

What about older rules like Send In the Next Wave for conscripts? I would hope there are exceptions for fluffy rules like that in Narrative scenarios at least, to represent overwhelming waves of infantry or demonic invasions.

One thing to consider is that on an abstract level there's not that much difference between a Tervigon spawning a Termagant to replace a dead one vs the Tervigon providing an extra save for the Gant so it doesn't die in the first place. I'm thinking of Ressurection Protocols work for Necron. We could see the Tervigon (and other similar units) shift to work like that, if unit replacement is off the table.

In AoS, Reinforcement Points is a Matched Play rule and doesn't apply to Open or Narrative Play (unless agreed to by the players).

**v0iddrgn**

JohnnyHell wrote:
HBMC has made his position clear, but no-one is under any obligation to somehow disprove that view. That's not how this discussion thing works. We just disagree and move on. The subject of the thread is not "HBMC is right: discuss" (not being rude to HBMC here, to be clear, I'm just illustrating that the convo has gone a little circular and is eating itself).

Exalted!

**Megaknob**

Galas wrote:
And what about the Ork Warboss that killed a Titan runing trought his face with his bike. Hm? What about that?! Isn't that fluffy enough?!

where did you read this I need thee book for my collection.

**perplexiti**

War Zone: Damocles is up

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/13/new-warhammer-40000-war-zone-damocles-may13gw-homepage-post-4/

**ClockworkZion**

Megaknob wrote:
Galas wrote:
And what about the Ork Warboss that killed a Titan runing trought his face with his bike. Hm? What about that?! Isn't that fluffy enough?!

where did you read this I need thee book for my collection.

Ork codex from 5th.

**Seneca**

So..... they changed the spelling of the Tau to T'au. For maximum copyright I assume, and they introduced a plot hook for why are there T'au in other places of the galaxy. I like it.

**Sidstyler**

The Fourth Sphere Expansion fleet set off almost immediately once the fires in the Gulf had subsided, but with the Great Rift was still raging through that region of space, all contact with them was soon lost. Were they all killed by some unknown attacker(s)? Did they just lose contact due to interference? Perhaps they entered the Warp – intentionally or not – becoming lost (or worse) in the violent empyrean tides? Maybe they will yet be found, or emerge somewhere unexpected in the galaxy, a lost portion of this optimistic new empire ever intent on conquest…

Chaos Tau confirmed.

**ClockworkZion**

perplexiti wrote:
War Zone: Damocles is up

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/13/new-warhammer-40000-war-zone-damocles-may13gw-homepage-post-4/

So Tau got super murdered after trying to take Damocles for their 4th expansion after the warp rift snuffed out the raging inferno the Imperium started at the end of the old campaign and no one knows where the missing fleets are (assuming they're alive). So now we have a 5th expansion and a chance to potentially kill Tau on Terra.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sidstyler wrote:
The Fourth Sphere Expansion fleet set off almost immediately once the fires in the Gulf had subsided, but with the Great Rift was still raging through that region of space, all contact with them was soon lost. Were they all killed by some unknown attacker(s)? Did they just lose contact due to interference? Perhaps they entered the Warp – intentionally or not – becoming lost (or worse) in the violent empyrean tides? Maybe they will yet be found, or emerge somewhere unexpected in the galaxy, a lost portion of this optimistic new empire ever intent on conquest…

Chaos Tau confirmed.

That or Necrons found a better source to make Pariahs out of....

**Kanluwen**

ClockworkZion wrote:
perplexiti wrote:
War Zone: Damocles is up

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/13/new-warhammer-40000-war-zone-damocles-may13gw-homepage-post-4/

So Tau got super murdered after trying to take Damocles for their 4th expansion after the warp rift snuffed out the raging inferno the Imperium started at the end of the old campaign and no one knows where the missing fleets are (assuming they're alive). So now we have a 5th expansion and a chance to potentially kill Tau on Terra.

Or Cadia or Baal.

Concept-wise, I guess it's as good as any to make it so that Tau can be in more than just the Eastern Fringe.

**Megaknob**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Megaknob wrote:
Galas wrote:
And what about the Ork Warboss that killed a Titan runing trought his face with his bike. Hm? What about that?! Isn't that fluffy enough?!

where did you read this I need thee book for my collection.

Ork codex from 5th.

the best codex

**angelofvengeance**

Seneca wrote:
So..... they changed the spelling of the Tau to T'au. For maximum copyright I assume, and they introduced a plot hook for why are there T'au in other places of the galaxy. I like it.

Well, their main homeworld is called T'au as well, so I guess that makes sense.

**Lord Kragan**

Seneca wrote:
So..... they changed the spelling of the Tau to T'au. For maximum copyright I assume, and they introduced a plot hook for why are there T'au in other places of the galaxy. I like it.

You do know that their homeworld has been always T'au, don't you? This is most likely to be the editor mixing up names.

**changemod**

I... They aren't paying attention to the terminology. They're called sphere expansions because they increase the empire's territory. If the fourth sphere expeditionary fleet vanishes then it doesn't stop being the fourth sphere expansion.

**casvalremdeikun**

I don't know if this was known, but the June White Dwarf has a street date of 6/23 (much later usual), so it stands to reason that 8th will come out on that date or a week later.

**Kanluwen**

changemod wrote:
I... They aren't paying attention to the terminology. They're called sphere expansions because they increase the empire's territory. If the fourth sphere expeditionary fleet vanishes then it doesn't stop being the fourth sphere expansion.

It does when the Aun'va hologram declares the Fourth Sphere Expansion an unmitigated success at expanding Tau holdings clear across the galaxy, thus the Fifth Sphere Expansion can begin...

**angelofvengeance**

Also, FYI: Rob and Eddie have said on Twitch that there will be another Q&A with Andy Smillie and Pete Foley (on Facebook) this coming Thursday (probably about 5pm ish like last time)

**Daedalus81**

H.B.M.C. wrote:

It's not a binary problem. It's a contextual problem. Unlimited summoning of power units like Daemons and Daemonic characters is obviously a major issue, something we all saw happen in current 40K. On the flip-side making a few Scarab bases is an order of magnitude different to the Daemon example.

The same solution needn't be applied to everything.

They say that when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. But there are different sized hammers. GW need not always go for the biggest one.

Everything comes with a cost. If something gets models for free they're going to pay for it up front or with weaker models. Tyranids don't get free stuff with no downside just because that's what they're supposed to do.

**Ragnar Blackmane**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
I don't know if this was known, but the June White Dwarf has a street date of 6/23 (much later usual), so it stands to reason that 8th will come out on that date or a week later.

Subscribers get it even earlier, so it don't think the edition itself will release that late. Also they aren't really forced to release everything alongside a white dwarf issue, releasing the WD issue a week after the launch for example wouldn't make a big difference. Also the leaked days where store managers aren't allowed to take vacations were on and around the 16th AFAIR.

**Galas**

Kanluwen wrote:
changemod wrote:
I... They aren't paying attention to the terminology. They're called sphere expansions because they increase the empire's territory. If the fourth sphere expeditionary fleet vanishes then it doesn't stop being the fourth sphere expansion.

It does when the Aun'va hologram declares the Fourth Sphere Expansion an unmitigated success at expanding Tau holdings clear across the galaxy, thus the Fifth Sphere Expansion can begin...

Here we have the mind of a Ethereal at work. Good job!

**Daedalus81**

ClockworkZion wrote:

That or Necrons found a better source to make Pariahs out of....

Or maybe they found Demiurg...

I can see them easily adding a few units here and there of found races to the Tau lineup.