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Yes, and hush about the Feds from ST now, we all know that IoM would win even if ST ships could empty their bays and one shot an imperial ship, and were 100% untouchable by using technobabble. The IoM could (and would!) suicide banzai charge crusiers and battleships INTO the fed worlds untill they were all ashes. Just by weight of numbers and stupid huge firepower.

In my opinion, ST would win against 40K, if only because of godmode races like the Q. LOL I thought you were gone and *BAMF* you were! GG GG

SW is the only universe that is near the IoM in power, (that is, to way WAY WAAAAY above it, but not on par with ST either) but I am 100% certain that if their places were switched, the SW universe woulden't last a week against CSM, 'Nids, and Orks. A single WAAAAGH could ruin them. JUST ONE. On the other hand, the IoM would have a jolly old time with some new xenos to purge, without having to deal with chaos. They just arnt very militarized, with something like 20 stormtroopers per planet.

Probably has been mentioned already, but a full strength Dalek Empire would tear the Imperium a new one. Mastery of time travel, hundreds of thousands of soldiers that rival Space Marines in terms of sheer brokeness, the universe destroying Reality Bomb, the fact that the Daleks could easily go to before the Emperor was even born and slaughter the entire population of Earth...

And if you were to make it a galaxy vs galaxy match... The Doctor Who universe has being who can MAKE universes. I think the winner is clear.

And Star Trek's "omnipotents" are overrated.

Necroman wrote:And Star Trek's "omnipotents" are overrated.

Q can own anything except something that can also completely alter reality to the same level he can.

I think the Daleks would even have a hard time with him, considering he could just change how physics works and make all of their equipment break.

Here's a thought: How well would the Shrike (From the Hyperion Cantos) do if it was plopped right into the 40K galaxy?

Monster Rain wrote:

Necroman wrote:And Star Trek's "omnipotents" are overrated.

Q can own anything except something that can also completely alter reality to the same level he can.

Which there's plenty of in Doctor Who.

See: Omega, the Guardians, the Celestial Toymaker, the Timelord empire and their TARDIS's...

Monster Rain wrote:I think the Daleks would even have a hard time with him, considering he could just change how physics works and make all of their equipment break.

Well, the Daleks probably would have a hard time with him, but that's just because they're a tech based empire.

Doctor Who's one of the more ridiculously broken Sci-fi verses anyway. The only one I can think of that might be above it is the Cultureverse.

I thought that we had already discussed this. If a race can time travel, theres no point in arguing for them. they could just go back in time and destroy there home planet before they even evolved. there is no point in discussing them

Necroman wrote:Probably has been mentioned already, but a full strength Dalek Empire would tear the Imperium a new one. Mastery of time travel, hundreds of thousands of soldiers that rival Space Marines in terms of sheer brokeness, the universe destroying Reality Bomb, the fact that the Daleks could easily go to before the Emperor was even born and slaughter the entire population of Earth...

And if you were to make it a galaxy vs galaxy match... The Doctor Who universe has being who can MAKE universes. I think the winner is clear.

And Star Trek's "omnipotents" are overrated.

and we agreed earlier that any race capable of time travel is out because time travel is cheating.


Time Travel is impossable because if the Dalek traveled back in time to erase the IoM from existing then they wouldn't have needed to travel back in time to erase them. Therefore the IoM exists.

Melissia wrote:

Jolrael wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Commissar Agro wrote:Flack armour is terrible

Flak armor is NOT terrible by any means. It's infinitely superior to anything we have in the modern world, and extremely light to boot (an entire suit of Guard flak armor, protecting almost the entire body, weighs far less than merely the chest piece of the best modern armor available).

The problem is that tabletop is an MEQ-oriented game.

And how many body armours besides kevlar from late sixties do you actually know?

I was comparing it to the Improved Outer Tactical Vest used by the US Army and Marines Corps.


edit: Some notes:

The IOTV body armor vest used by the US Army weighs about 30-35 depending on which version. The MTV body armor vest used by the Marine Corps weighs about thirty pounds. These do not include the weight of the helmets used, or any other equipment or clothing.

A full set of Guard Flak Armor (gauntlet, helmet, chest/stomach/back armor, greaves, boots, pauldrons) weighs 11 kilograms, or 24 pounds. This doesn't include clothing. Flak armor is INCREDIBLY light for the amount of protection it gives, which is enough to stop most modern weapons from penetrating and doing any real damage more often than not.

edit2: More stuff on Flak Armor:

In the Dark Heresy system, Guard Flak Armor provides 4 armor value across the entire body. This combined with the average Human's toughness bonus of 3 (humans commonly have 25-35 toughness in the setting) and average total wounds of 10-12 means that with Guard Flak Armor, most characters can resist multiple direct hits from lasguns/autoguns without serious injury.

Lasguns/autoguns do 1d10+3 damage. So 4-13. The armor and toughness reduce this by seven to 0-6 damage (with four chances to roll zero out of ten) barring a lucky shot. Stub weapons (the equivalent of modern weaponry) do typically one less damage except for "hand cannons", IE, magnum weapons, and "hunting rifles", IE bolt action rifles.

And against anything which is a blast, such as a frag grenade, this is increased to armor value 5-- so a frag grenade does 0-5 damage, with 1/2 of all frag grenades doing no damage whatsoever.

This is an incredibly good piece of armor compared to modern armor if this level of effectiveness is intended-- and it is not counteracted by other pieces of fluff, so I do believe it is.

Sorry, but you have not answered my question in your 6 paragraphs.

Briefly and on topic - my limited knowledge goes on something like this:

If we will stay around the kevlar - more modern versions, even experimental exist, like GF microcomposites or added PE fibres(and so on and so on- I am not an expert) - and this stuff is from nineties. So it could actually mean nothing now.

If we will stay around your "expertise" of modern USS marine armour have you at least considered that it covers MORE % of body than guardsman flak armour? Simply said it is larger - so it could actually weigh more.

If we will stay around your "damage" math have you heard about 101 bullet test? It was commercial test so information could not be too hard to find - and you mentionned hunting rifles and magnum weapons so you could check it out. And no love for .50 caliber?

And btw you cannot be really serious about d6 math. It goes something like this : weeeell average human has S3 so non average space marine will be S4 - its fun but where is logic in this? What is average strenght? When someone benchpresses 80 kilos? But there are people who can press 150 pretty easily. As they are even those who press over 300 killos without problems. And mankind should have evolved a bit. So average space marine benchpresses 375 kilos while 80 kilos benchpressing human represents S 0,85?

Whole idea around flak armour is to create easily produced (thanks to sufficient raw materials), manufactured(simplicity) and transported(weigh). Mass production = many, many, MANY guardsman covered. I would not be so fast to underestimate our prototypes - yes they are nearly impossible to produce en masse - but are they strictly worse?

From this point I think comes weaknes of the IOM - supplying. But as some mentionned guirella war - easier to be said than done. Yes you could successfully make several raids without any significant response from the IOM. But IOM can afford losses, sooner or later direct confrontation will be imminent...and then another and another...My point is that actually to be more advanced is not enough. You need someone who is prepared to wage centuries - if not millenias of conflict wihout pause. Then you have found a match for IOM.

Btw Melissia I am not trying to annoy you or confront you in any manner, but to make a solid statement you need more than few undirect sentences without synergy. Power of statement comes from solid sources. And source can be solid either by importance of an author or by mere existing quantity.

Grey Templar wrote:

Necroman wrote:Probably has been mentioned already, but a full strength Dalek Empire would tear the Imperium a new one. Mastery of time travel, hundreds of thousands of soldiers that rival Space Marines in terms of sheer brokeness, the universe destroying Reality Bomb, the fact that the Daleks could easily go to before the Emperor was even born and slaughter the entire population of Earth...

And if you were to make it a galaxy vs galaxy match... The Doctor Who universe has being who can MAKE universes. I think the winner is clear.

And Star Trek's "omnipotents" are overrated.

and we agreed earlier that any race capable of time travel is out because time travel is cheating.


Time Travel is impossable because if the Dalek traveled back in time to erase the IoM from existing then they wouldn't have needed to travel back in time to erase them. Therefore the IoM exists.

exactly

Ledabot wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Necroman wrote:Probably has been mentioned already, but a full strength Dalek Empire would tear the Imperium a new one. Mastery of time travel, hundreds of thousands of soldiers that rival Space Marines in terms of sheer brokeness, the universe destroying Reality Bomb, the fact that the Daleks could easily go to before the Emperor was even born and slaughter the entire population of Earth...

And if you were to make it a galaxy vs galaxy match... The Doctor Who universe has being who can MAKE universes. I think the winner is clear.

And Star Trek's "omnipotents" are overrated.

and we agreed earlier that any race capable of time travel is out because time travel is cheating.


Time Travel is impossable because if the Dalek traveled back in time to erase the IoM from existing then they wouldn't have needed to travel back in time to erase them. Therefore the IoM exists.

exactly

I agree,not to mention that they have weapons that crack planets like eggs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Jolarel
Supply lines can be problem that's why the Imperial Guard are designed to operate better as possible without them.
Tau on the other hand are highly reliant of them.

IvanTih wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:Have we discussed the Combine yet, or am I late to the party?
Regardless, I like to imagine the Combine waging a sort of "guerilla" war on the Imperium. Popping in from another dimension, providing a more friendly enviroment for Imperial citizens to live in, and stealing all the water before buggering off to another dimension.
In open combat, I can safely say that the Combine would lose. What has been seen of their weapons have been a few laser weapons and some shell throwers. That said, whatching a strider go toe-to-toe with a wraithlord would be awesome.

That wouldn't work you see we have Inquisitors,then we have psykers who will notice what's wrong.

...wut?
It takes a long time for messages to be sent in the Imperium, and even longer for actual orders to be given, and ships dispatched. The Combine would probably have invaded, won, nicked all the organic matter, fought off a crowbar wielding techpriest and disapeared by the time Inquisitor Awesome McCoolname finished his Exterminatus requisition order or even found out unless he was already stationed there.

alexwars1 wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:Have we discussed the Combine yet, or am I late to the party?
Regardless, I like to imagine the Combine waging a sort of "guerilla" war on the Imperium. Popping in from another dimension, providing a more friendly enviroment for Imperial citizens to live in, and stealing all the water before buggering off to another dimension.
In open combat, I can safely say that the Combine would lose. What has been seen of their weapons have been a few laser weapons and some shell throwers. That said, whatching a strider go toe-to-toe with a wraithlord would be awesome.

That wouldn't work you see we have Inquisitors,then we have psykers who will notice what's wrong.

...wut?
It takes a long time for messages to be sent in the Imperium, and even longer for actual orders to be given, and ships dispatched. The Combine would probably have invaded, won, nicked all the organic matter, fought off a crowbar wielding techpriest and disapeared by the time Inquisitor Awesome McCoolname finished his Exterminatus requisition order or even found out unless he was already stationed there.

It doesn't take long time to send them.
Problem is the time dilation because of the warp(FTL speed,not communication).
Still Warp drive can cross 10k ly in 10-40 days.
Planets have PDFs.

IvanTih wrote:

Ledabot wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Necroman wrote:Probably has been mentioned already, but a full strength Dalek Empire would tear the Imperium a new one. Mastery of time travel, hundreds of thousands of soldiers that rival Space Marines in terms of sheer brokeness, the universe destroying Reality Bomb, the fact that the Daleks could easily go to before the Emperor was even born and slaughter the entire population of Earth...

And if you were to make it a galaxy vs galaxy match... The Doctor Who universe has being who can MAKE universes. I think the winner is clear.

And Star Trek's "omnipotents" are overrated.

and we agreed earlier that any race capable of time travel is out because time travel is cheating.


Time Travel is impossable because if the Dalek traveled back in time to erase the IoM from existing then they wouldn't have needed to travel back in time to erase them. Therefore the IoM exists.

exactly

I agree,not to mention that they have weapons that crack planets like eggs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Jolarel
Supply lines can be problem that's why the Imperial Guard are designed to operate better as possible without them.
Tau on the other hand are highly reliant of them.

LOL
the first thing that can to mind was a planet crackin in half with a gaint chicken noice.

Ledabot wrote:

LOL
the first thing that can to mind was a planet crackin in half with a gaint chicken noice.

Me too,but that's above IOM firepower.

bawk bawk boom!

IvanTih wrote:Nemesis describing the armaments of the Vengeful Spirit as "torpedo arrays filled with warshots capable of atomising continents in single strikes, energy cannon capable of boiling off oceans", to take the nearest book to hand.
So power feats are meshing good.

Ivan,

Now I'm even more confused.

Are you saying that in Nemesis the description of the weapons were as above, and that when destroyed the ensuing explosion was a lot smaller? ergo the weapons don't have those yeilds?

Cheers

Andrew

I'm amazed, 20 pages and no Mod warnings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sniperjolly wrote:Yes, and hush about the Feds from ST now, we all know that IoM would win even if ST ships could empty their bays and one shot an imperial ship, and were 100% untouchable by using technobabble. The IoM could (and would!) suicide banzai charge crusiers and battleships INTO the fed worlds untill they were all ashes. Just by weight of numbers and stupid huge firepower.

Don't start. I think that this topic has finally moved to something the is bothering the likes of Keezus and myself. What is the standard of evidence required in order to make such claims.

And I don't think anyone here would agree with your thought that IoM would deliberately crash a cruiser/battleship into a world. Afterall such a tactic would effectively stop the 'nids from invading. And they haven't done that, have they?

Cheers

Andrew

Monster Rain wrote:

Necroman wrote:And Star Trek's "omnipotents" are overrated.

Q can own anything except something that can also completely alter reality to the same level he can.

I think the Daleks would even have a hard time with him, considering he could just change how physics works and make all of their equipment break.

Or turn their weaponry into bananas. He's "different" like that.

Just from STOS:
Organians
the "family" of energy buildings that built planets for fun
The energy beings (notice a trend) that stopped the Enterprise and the Organians.

Any refernece for this "Culture" sounds interesting to read.

Frazzled wrote:
Any refernece for this "Culture" sounds interesting to read.

From the way this thread is going try Use of Weapons or Excession by Ian Banks

Cheers

Andrew

Iain M Banks

The earliest novel. While they are all independent, the events in this one are sometimes mentioned as history in later novels.
http://www.amazon.com/Consider-Phlebas-Iain-M-Banks/dp/031600538X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1286451784&sr=8-3

This one is particularly fun for games players.
http://www.amazon.com/Player-Games-Iain-M-Banks/dp/0316005401/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_4

This is quite jolly too, ranging across a variety of tech levels.
http://www.amazon.com/Use-Weapons-Iain-M-Banks/dp/0316030570/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_5

This one shows why Culture ships are to be feared.
http://www.amazon.com/Excession-Iain-Banks/dp/0553575376/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_8

There are nine "Culture" novels so far, in case you get hooked on them, and he has written several non-Culture SF books and a number of conventional novels too.

Coolio. May check them out.

However, his Science Fiction ones are Iain M Banks, and his non fiction eg Crow Road is Iain Banks.

Which is why I got his name wrong.

Andrew

It's kinda funny how these threads always go.

Grey Templar wrote:and we agreed earlier that any race capable of time travel is out because time travel is cheating.


Time Travel is impossable because if the Dalek traveled back in time to erase the IoM from existing then they wouldn't have needed to travel back in time to erase them. Therefore the IoM exists.

The Daleks don't need time travel to win.

They already have a weapon that rips apart every atom in the universe. I'd say that's enough.

The Reapers from the "Mass effect" universe. An entire race consisting of 10s (hundreds?) of thousands of sentient battleships.

Each ship seens to have a latent psychic ability to subvert other sentient creatures to their will that continues to broadcast even after they have been technically dead for thousands of years.

They have the ability to convert their slaves, or anyone who is subsiquently killed by those slaves, into fearless bio-mechanical footsoldiers. A single major hiveworld attacked has billions of potential converts.

Now granted we dont know how 1 surly marine and his gang of outcasts are going to win this one, but thinking of say Soverign from ME1 I would be worried about that invasion

AndrewC wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Nemesis describing the armaments of the Vengeful Spirit as "torpedo arrays filled with warshots capable of atomising continents in single strikes, energy cannon capable of boiling off oceans", to take the nearest book to hand.
So power feats are meshing good.

Are you saying that in Nemesis the description of the weapons were as above, and that when destroyed the ensuing explosion was a lot smaller? ergo the weapons don't have those yeilds?

Actually, now that you point it out, the power feats are not meshing good, considering that according to that description torpedos are now (much) more powerful than the energy cannons. Ignoring the atomising part intially (as it involves shearing all molecular bonds into composite components after vaporisation) - vaporising a solid > vaporising a liquid. Considering that boiling oceans is a sustained action over time and takes a cumulative 10e^26-27J (equal to one second solar output), this would suggest that a torpedo strike is able to produce magnitudes more power instantaneously. This would easily make them 10e^6+ times more powerful (atomising a solid vs boiling a liquid, instantaeous energy output vs cumulative)

Since it is widely stated (multiple sources) that void shields blunt energy cannons but can't stop torpedoes and it is also stated in multiple sources that capital ship beam weapons > torpedos - IMO, this quotation is inadmissable as supporting evidence as it is a single instance which runs contrary to multiple instances. The description is at best hyperbole, a complete disregard for continuity or at worst, a fundamental misunderstanding of matter states.



And please: No "special" torpedo arguements. Cyclonics don't atomise continents. The whole standard torpedo arguement is especially prickly considering that they are stated in multiple sources to be fusion warheads (with no mention of Plasma).

I think that we're all getting bogged down in a pointless argument which is common to sci fi debates. If anyone actually knew how the A C Clarke 'magic' happened in any of these franchises he or she would be laughing all the way to the patent office. The common line of debate is that - 'the tech from the franchise I oppose is impossible, while the tech from the franchise I support need not be explained at all' in many cases - and while most every good sci fi series, movie, book or graphic novel contains wildly advanced technology, none of it works on real world rules.
I put it to you that the rule of cool is the only one that applies - because for example while BOTH the Emperor-class battleship and the Death Star are pretty much unworkable with known tech, they are both kick arse awesome. And no, ST doesn't get away clean - the whole trope about 'reversing the polarity' comes from there!

Back to the point in hand though - while the IoM would surely be ground into a fine paste by the Culture and used as grimdark pate, what about the Polity? I always saw them as an emergent version of the Culture, with their A.I. rule and sentient ships etc...

keezus wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Nemesis describing the armaments of the Vengeful Spirit as "torpedo arrays filled with warshots capable of atomising continents in single strikes, energy cannon capable of boiling off oceans", to take the nearest book to hand.
So power feats are meshing good.

Are you saying that in Nemesis the description of the weapons were as above, and that when destroyed the ensuing explosion was a lot smaller? ergo the weapons don't have those yeilds?

Actually, now that you point it out, the power feats are not meshing good, considering that according to that description torpedos are now (much) more powerful than the energy cannons. Ignoring the atomising part intially (as it involves shearing all molecular bonds into composite components after vaporisation) - vaporising a solid > vaporising a liquid. Considering that boiling oceans is a sustained action over time and takes a cumulative 10e^26-27J (equal to one second solar output), this would suggest that a torpedo strike is able to produce magnitudes more power instantaneously. This would easily make them 10e^6+ times more powerful (atomising a solid vs boiling a liquid, instantaeous energy output vs cumulative)

Since it is widely stated (multiple sources) that void shields blunt energy cannons but can't stop torpedoes and it is also stated in multiple sources that capital ship beam weapons > torpedos - IMO, this quotation is inadmissable as supporting evidence as it is a single instance which runs contrary to multiple instances. The description is at best hyperbole, a complete disregard for continuity or at worst, a fundamental misunderstanding of matter states.



And please: No "special" torpedo arguements. Cyclonics don't atomise continents. The whole standard torpedo arguement is especially prickly considering that they are stated in multiple sources to be fusion warheads (with no mention of Plasma).

How are they aren't meshing good,we have Caves of Ice,Cyrene crust melting and Siege of Terra where Horus boiled Terra's oceans and cracked tectonic plates.
You also forget that those are cyclonic torpedoes who are essentially technobabble weapons,who can be fitted with melta charge to rip planet apart and with warheads used to destroy the atmosphere.
And we have official 610 gigaton torpedo calc.
I admit that torpedoes are weaker,I know that they penetrate void shields,but Cyclonic torpedoes use different armaments.

Cyclonic torpedoes are designed to destroy worlds, not melt continents or boil oceans.

A sane captain wouldn't use one on a ship except as a last resort... because it probably wouldn't work, as it's designed against a planet, not a ship.

@AndrewC
About those 610 gigaton photon torpedoes.
There's a problem here, because they are clearly ignoring the "Rate" part of the statement, and assuming it means higher energy release.

This is clearly not the case, not just from on screen footage, or even from the fact that the TM is non-canon. The Rate part is not an insignificant detail. It means that Photon torpedoes release their energy faster than the detonation of an antimatter storage pod, which makes perfect sense since Photon torpedoes are supposed to store matter and antimatter in pellets rather than a big crate, these pellets stored in a matter/antimatter/matter/antimatter alternating fashion. An antimatter storage pod has more antimatter than matter in the casing, and would of course be extremely inefficient by default.

IE Photon Torpedoes simply release their energy faster, they do not release more energy than a storage pod, even with taking into account the fact that a storage pod doesn't have enough matter to react with even half it's antimatter, so even it's max theoretical energy yield would be measured by it's casing's dry mass, not by it's antimatter mass.

By using generous TNG:TM payload of 1.5kg and the DS9:TM efficiency of 74% combined with the omni-directional blast factor halving the value, we get 24 megatons effective yield when fired in vacuum and 48 megatons if used in an orbital bombardment against a planet with an atmosphere.
I think the TMs are best treated as background material to fill gaps in our knowledge, but we should be leery of relying on them or elevating them as a go-to source.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Cyclonic torpedoes are designed to destroy worlds, not melt continents or boil oceans.

A sane captain wouldn't use one on a ship except as a last resort... because it probably wouldn't work, as it's designed against a planet, not a ship.

Nemesis said that they attack continents not oceans,we have energy cannons for that.

They don't attack continents. They utilize a two-stage delivery system which uses a melta charge to burrow into the planet's core. There, it detonates in such a fashion as to destabilize the planet and cause it to shatter and tear itself apart.

Mind you, this is old fluff. They may have decided to change it. But I like this better. Cyclonic Torpedos are an Exterminatus-exclusive weapon.

Melissia wrote:They don't attack continents. They utilize a two-stage delivery system which uses a melta charge to burrow into the planet's core. There, it detonates in such a fashion as to destabilize the planet and cause it to shatter and tear itself apart.

Mind you, this is old fluff. They may have decided to change it. But I like this better. Cyclonic Torpedos are an Exterminatus-exclusive weapon.

That's what I said,they rip planets apart,they didn't change it.

@Ivan,

We're getting into the minutia that always seems to bog this down. I'm not trying to say that the torpedo must have that figure, I'm using it as the classic point of disagreement between both sides.

Firstly we really can't say what is or isn't inefficient as a weapon. To me, antimatter can only be 100% efficient, as it can only exist as a binary state. ie 100% there or 100% not. I understand what you are saying with the rate part and can see your line of reasoning, however I feel it is self defeating, in that one statement contradicts the other. If a torpedo has half of its' force dissapated by a slow rate of reaction, ie half of the energy can be reflected away from the direction of travel then it disagrees with your statement that "its a small explosion it's just really quick", if the anhialation(sp) of the antimatter is to run so quickly, then the explosion doesnt have time to reflect. All force would be transmitted into the target.

I think that we're all getting bogged down in a pointless argument which is common to sci fi debates. If anyone actually knew how the A C Clarke 'magic' happened in any of these franchises he or she would be laughing all the way to the patent office. The common line of debate is that - 'the tech from the franchise I oppose is impossible, while the tech from the franchise I support need not be explained at all' in many cases - and while most every good sci fi series, movie, book or graphic novel contains wildly advanced technology, none of it works on real world rules.

I think TheCyben has said it best.

Cheers

Andrew