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Yeah. InDesign is great. A bit hard to get used to, but worth it in the long run.

Not a major update, so I'm not going to bother quoting it all except for this:

Santana Claus is coming to town!

I have a feeling that Santana is either going to be an added reward, stretch goal, or early backer thank you

 Alfndrate wrote:
Not a major update, so I'm not going to bother quoting it all except for this:

Santana Claus is coming to town!

I have a feeling that Santana is either going to be an added reward, stretch goal, or early backer thank you

What.

Okay, that, combined with the new info on what the model packs actually come with (thanks for the correction before, somehow didn't count the trench coat bodies) is finally tempting me to up my pledge beyond the basic book.

Though, I kinda' feel bad for the people who bought her on ebay... I know I'd be a little frustrated if Wyrd announced that everyone got a free limited edition LCB

Who knows, but definitely got my attention

Wow. That's really going to piss some people off.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Not a major update, so I'm not going to bother quoting it all except for this:

Santana Claus is coming to town!

I have a feeling that Santana is either going to be an added reward, stretch goal, or early backer thank you

What.

Okay, that, combined with the new info on what the model packs actually come with (thanks for the correction before, somehow didn't count the trench coat bodies) is finally tempting me to up my pledge beyond the basic book.

Though, I kinda' feel bad for the people who bought her on ebay... I know I'd be a little frustrated if Wyrd announced that everyone got a free limited edition LCB

Who knows, but definitely got my attention

My theory is that it'll be added to improve the $225/269 tier, which suffers a little comparison to the middle ones in terms of bang for your buck, imo.

Highly doubt it'll be a mere early backer reward. Adding 1200+ of them to the field would indeed be a massive block, whereas there are only ~320'ish at $225 right now. Of course, that number would jump if they do follow through with such an addition, but these are people doing a pretty hefty share of helping build funds to produce a whole new product, surely that's worthy of a spicy incentive?

As for being limited edition, it really depends on what they do to get more 'out in the wild' as it were, but even if it were to all at 225+, I suspect they'd still be rarer than NE LCB. Also, Santana's dropped down to around $100-150 on ebay last I checked, meaning her value has already dropped to a similar level as it is. Granted, it may climb again once the supply dries up and one only shows up during a blue moon, but that's hard to call over the long run. And finally, given that these won't be going out until August/September next year, I'd say having access to one for up to a year before almost anyone else means they don't lose everything that made them special. Doubly so if they're pretty much never handed out again.

 cincydooley wrote:
Wow. That's really going to piss some people off.

I'm not quite sure who that's going to piss off except maybe those that paid for it on ebay...

How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.

 cincydooley wrote:
How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.

that many more on ebay to buy!

 cincydooley wrote:
How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.

I thought you were saying pages ago that they needed to appeal to the skirmish gamer, is this not what you wanted?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.

I thought you were saying pages ago that they needed to appeal to the skirmish gamer, is this not what you wanted?

Well we can wait to see how they implement it and at what levels, but no. It's an incredibly lazy way for them to try and drum up additional support, and the henchmen I've talked to tonight are actually pretty pissed off about it, as are the folks that won it in tournaments.

The henchman I've talked to are fine with it, as it saves them from having to give theirs up...

Anecdotal evidence can be used on both sides dude...

The thing that I'll agree with is that we need to see what level it comes in at.

Alf, do you know something we don't know? The subject line of this thread is rather... concrete.

As for the state of this campaign, I wonder if adding the Santana LE will be quite the shot in the arm people expect. It's rather amazing, but consider that this campaign has yet to reach a single stretch goal after the $150,000 goal, and the vast majority of the pledges that went to reaching that goal occurred before the goals were revealed. Over nearly 3 weeks (19 days including today) the campaign has made just shy of $39,000.

It seems very likely that those people most likely to care at all about the Santana LE have already pledged, generally speaking. Notice also that a non-trivial number of people are currently pledged for backer levels that have no miniatures attached to them.

It's almost comical how badly this campaign has been run from a standpoint of recruiting consumers: above and beyond any questions of inadequacy of value, they haven't properly conveyed what was actually in the starting pledges. Seriously, it's not until yesterday that they reveal the "Multi-Pose Mini" is actually a kit, not a single miniature, as apparently everyone expected (notice also the belated realization of this mistake, as that concept art is now the top item on the campaign's home page).

That that was allowed to happen begs the question: why allow people to think the kit was actually capable of making only one mini? It occurs that perhaps they hadn't decided what would be on it yet. Just look back at the discussions earlier in this thread, on their own forums and the comments on the campaign: the consistent attempts at providing value presumed that "mini" was one (1) miniature. Certainly they had some idea that was the presumption, why allow it to fester for 2 weeks?

Again, we get to the psychology of it: they reveal this pertinent information after two early pledge awards have expired. At this point they don't just have to make the pledges better in absolute terms, but have to overcome the impression that by waiting till they were satisfied and pledging now, people got screwed out of things. Seriously, everyone who tried to rationalize "3 minis for $65 jump?" and came down just short of it being worthwhile has now missed out, because Wyrd didn't give them the facts.

As Zwei noted early on in this process: "As far as Kickstarters go, admitting a mistake and fixing it "thanks to the community feedback" is about the best thing you can do to get those positive viral vibes.... Hell, even a Kickstarter that could've been designed flawless from the start should probably add a few "mistakes" for the community to fix, just so you can get the internet-badge of being someone who is "listening to your base". It's worth hard $$$ on Kickstarter."

So it's baffling the attitude they are currently taking of stealth-fixing issues rather then coming out and just saying "hey folks, you were right, we weren't giving you value for money, here's how we're going to make this not only the best game, but an offer you can't refuse!" Instantly, new psychological moment: even if they are just doing what they were doing, people feel vindicated, they feel like, "hey, we won, let's be generous". Although in fairness, they probably should extend both of the previously expired bonus items to be simple stretch goals.

Yes. But if they do that it's a pretty concrete admission that they were wrong: something they clearly have no interest in doing.

Buzz, the only thing I know that you guys don't know is some preview art.

I know that the KS had slowed to a crawl, I've said it in here before, whether my opinions on the slow are right or not, don't really matter.

I've noticed the pledge levels, I watch this fether like a hawk. I would be lying if I said I didn't want the minis, I love RPGs, but I tend to play with minis, so giving me minis is a benefit to me.

When the multi-pose model was released, I mentioned that it was too bad it wasn't released earlier. I'm sure plenty of people would have started with the Dining Room Gamer if they knew what it looked like from the outset. As for the location of the art on the campaign page, they've been putting the most recent updates at the top, that's not hard to figure out.

The reason why people thought it was a single mini is the wording that Wyrd used. It could be that the multi-pose stuff wasn't finished, I'm not specuating on that. I'm dealing with facts and words, I didn't spend half a decade in college looking at theoreticals.

Dining Room Roleplayer: Get a copy of the Player's Guide, a copy of the Fate Master's Guide, a Male and Female multi-pose mini

Their words don't allude to it being a sprue. And I'm not speculating on what Wyrd may or may not know, my contact is Justin and Jac for my Henchmen stuff, I don't know Eric, Nathan, or anyone else in the office.

I've stated before, that the kickstarter had things that I didn't like, but they weren't enough to warrant me NOT pledging. They've since fixed any issue I've had. Granted I dropped my pledge from 225 to 125 because I don't want the wicked doll, and I'd rather have the minis than a hard cover version of the books, because again... I like to play with minis while I play my RPGs, that comes from years of 3rd and 3.5 edition DnD.

I just...I just wish they wouldn't have half assed this KS. By not prep all this stuff first and the wait to launch the KS during the new year?

I just feel like thy launched this thing about 3 weeks too early and it's only just now that they have any real direction to where they're going.

That's very possible...

 cincydooley wrote:
How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.

If you back at the $225 level and Santana is added, even with a bit of depreciation, I think you would pretty easily be able to earn back most of the $225 you spent by hocking Hannah, Santana, Miss Terious (assuming you're an early backer), hanging tree, spare deck and the 3 multipart sprues on ebay.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
It seems very likely that those people most likely to care at all about the Santana LE have already pledged, generally speaking. Notice also that a non-trivial number of people are currently pledged for backer levels that have no miniatures attached to them.

If they add Santana at the $125 levels, it likely won't have that big of an impact, but at the $225 level, you will likely push a solid proportion of the 338 dining room players up to the $225 level. That's a potential extra $33,800 (plus a bit of shipping) from those backers, ignoring that Santana will attract more people to the Kickstarter.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Buzz, the only thing I know that you guys don't know is some preview art.

Hmmm, I don't mean to be overly cautious, but then the only reason you say "SANTANA ORTEGA COMING SOON!" is the line in the update "because Santana Claus is coming to town"?

Don't get me wrong, I would definitly say offering the LE mini is the best thing they could do... but counting on them to do the best thing isn't such a sure bet.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I know that the KS had slowed to a crawl, I've said it in here before, whether my opinions on the slow are right or not, don't really matter.

I've noticed the pledge levels, I watch this fether like a hawk. I would be lying if I said I didn't want the minis, I love RPGs, but I tend to play with minis, so giving me minis is a benefit to me.

When the multi-pose model was released, I mentioned that it was too bad it wasn't released earlier. I'm sure plenty of people would have started with the Dining Room Gamer if they knew what it looked like from the outset. As for the location of the art on the campaign page, they've been putting the most recent updates at the top, that's not hard to figure out.

The reason why people thought it was a single mini is the wording that Wyrd used. It could be that the multi-pose stuff wasn't finished, I'm not specuating on that. I'm dealing with facts and words, I didn't spend half a decade in college looking at theoreticals.

Dining Room Roleplayer: Get a copy of the Player's Guide, a copy of the Fate Master's Guide, a Male and Female multi-pose mini

Their words don't allude to it being a sprue. And I'm not speculating on what Wyrd may or may not know, my contact is Justin and Jac for my Henchmen stuff, I don't know Eric, Nathan, or anyone else in the office.

Please forgive me, but I'm honestly not clear what you are saying here vis-a-vis a response to what I said. For example, I think we're in complete agreement, people thought the "Multi-Pose Mini" was a single miniature because all the available wording seemed to imply just that. It was entirely on account of what Wyrd put out... which was my point. I may be reading into what you are saying, as you seem to be agreeing with my points, but adding in things I don't quite understand the purpose of (like the reference to college, that just made me go ).

 Alfndrate wrote:
I've stated before, that the kickstarter had things that I didn't like, but they weren't enough to warrant me NOT pledging. They've since fixed any issue I've had. Granted I dropped my pledge from 225 to 125 because I don't want the wicked doll, and I'd rather have the minis than a hard cover version of the books, because again... I like to play with minis while I play my RPGs, that comes from years of 3rd and 3.5 edition DnD.

This does nicely tie into a point that underlies what I was saying: it makes no sense to keep making the pledges better for people that already pledged, and can't increase the amount they pledged. That's the really mind boggling thing: because the levels are so fixed and there are no addons, this campaign is almost entirely at the mercy of gaining new backers. Which is the group of people they have done the most to make this unattractive to.

Just remember, anyone that pledges today gets less for their money then the person that pledged the same amount last week, and both of them get less then the people that pledged the first three days. Let's also remember, $143,00 or so of the $182,000 (so just shy of 80%) of the total pledge value came in those first 3 days when the Miss T was available.

 cincydooley wrote:
I just...I just wish they wouldn't have half assed this KS. By not prep all this stuff first and the wait to launch the KS during the new year?

I just feel like thy launched this thing about 3 weeks too early and it's only just now that they have any real direction to where they're going.

I don't feel as bad about it as you seem to, but I wholly agree that it seems like they've just started to figure out what they're doing. I hope they can salvage this, because, regardless of their mistakes, I'm hoping Wyrd works this out.

decker_cky wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.

If you back at the $225 level and Santana is added, even with a bit of depreciation, I think you would pretty easily be able to earn back most of the $225 you spent by hocking Hannah, Santana, Miss Terious (assuming you're an early backer), hanging tree, spare deck and the 3 multipart sprues on ebay.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
It seems very likely that those people most likely to care at all about the Santana LE have already pledged, generally speaking. Notice also that a non-trivial number of people are currently pledged for backer levels that have no miniatures attached to them.

If they add Santana at the $125 levels, it likely won't have that big of an impact, but at the $225 level, you will likely push a solid proportion of the 338 dining room players up to the $225 level. That's a potential extra $33,800 (plus a bit of shipping) from those backers, ignoring that Santana will attract more people to the Kickstarter.

It's certainly possible, of course. What percentage of that 340 would throw down an extra $100 for that miniature I cannot say. Although do recall that the previously announced stretch goals all relate to the $125 pledge level and above. It's entirely possible they would also experience backlash from miniature lovers if they were required to upgrade to the highest level (and thus also take a lot of things they may not care for, like the doll) from what is ostensibly the miniature level.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Although do recall that the previously announced stretch goals all relate to the $125 pledge level and above.

Note that they did specify that the $60 tier would also get the .pdf, and posted on the forums that they were specifically looking at sweetening the $225 tier with something, so there's already precedent for having stretch goals and bonuses applied as they wished across the tiers.

cincydooley wrote:How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.

The other thing is that if its Santana Claus, that may be more of a gift, and not a stretch. Sweeten the pot without it being attached to a stretch goal and they conflict with the statement that $125 gets all the stretch goals.

The post is very good.

Sorry for missing your last post to me Buzz, I went to sleep, gotta get up at 5:30am, so I posted and then went to bed.

The reason why it says, "Santana Ortega coming soon" because I couldn't fit "Santana Claus is coming to town" and still keep the male sprue piece.

I'll change it if you want

decker_cky wrote:

cincydooley wrote:How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.

The other thing is that if its Santana Claus, that may be more of a gift, and not a stretch. Sweeten the pot without it being attached to a stretch goal and they conflict with the statement that $125 gets all the stretch goals.

My guess would be its going to be either this weeks or next weeks early backer reward.

Well, that would be one way to absolutely kill the final push

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Buzz, the only thing I know that you guys don't know is some preview art.

Hmmm, I don't mean to be overly cautious, but then the only reason you say "SANTANA ORTEGA COMING SOON!" is the line in the update "because Santana Claus is coming to town"?

Don't get me wrong, I would definitly say offering the LE mini is the best thing they could do... but counting on them to do the best thing isn't such a sure bet.

As a fellow Henchman, although a fairly inactive one, I can confirm that the only inside information that Alf has acess to is some preview art.

I think its a pretty safe bet that Santana Claus is going to be Santana Ortega, it fits with what they have in mind for the model.

The only thing that saddens me about the Santana model is there is so much room on that sprue, they could totally sculpt a "Nina" (with the accent mark over the second n) and have a female version of Nino. I would like an all female Guild Crew (I just need a female judge for my Lady J. Crew and having several female ortegas might prompt me to pick up Perdita.

I just think their 'special models' for this are lazy on all fronts. I know with Santana they said that she may be made available later for something, but I just dont think this is the right something.

IMO, they should have a KS exclusive model. That way, it would at least show they put some additionally effort into making the KS 'special' instead of just rehashing stuff they already have.

 cincydooley wrote:
I just think their 'special models' for this are lazy on all fronts. I know with Santana they said that she may be made available later for something, but I just dont think this is the right something.

IMO, they should have a KS exclusive model. That way, it would at least show they put some additionally effort into making the KS 'special' instead of just rehashing stuff they already have.

Santana was made as a promotional model much like the Gremlinette, I actually think Santana works great for this purpose.