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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Graphite wrote:
Even without Stormshields, Custodes are going to be very difficult to land a hit on in Melee - they have 5 2+ dice to use as parries if needs be.

Interesting way to run something like a Crisis suit though - give it a low (ish) number of attacks but give it the equivalent rule to the storm shield - it won't hit often, but the hits it does roll can be used as parries. Opens up the "heavy armour but can't do much damage in CC" option.


I'm wondering how Custodes will get hit in melee at all. With 3A at 3+ the Avenger will score 2 hits. It will take just one success ( unless a crit ) to parry both of those away. That leaves 3 to 4 swings from the Custodes back. Crazy strong.

There has to be some sort of flanking bonus.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 15:33:22


   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Have to say a bit disappointed with this reveal. I was expecting the ol' high Init Eldar to have an APL of 3, but the Dire Avengers get stuck at 2. Harlequins are getting APL 3 but it'd be nice if CWE was thrown a bone every now and then.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

That's the "basic" Dire Avenger. So a baseline Aeldari Aspect Warrior has 2APL.

Nothing stopping Exarchs/unit leaders from having more potentially.
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
Even without Stormshields, Custodes are going to be very difficult to land a hit on in Melee - they have 5 2+ dice to use as parries if needs be.

Interesting way to run something like a Crisis suit though - give it a low (ish) number of attacks but give it the equivalent rule to the storm shield - it won't hit often, but the hits it does roll can be used as parries. Opens up the "heavy armour but can't do much damage in CC" option.


I'm wondering how Custodes will get hit in melee at all. With 3A at 3+ the Avenger will score 2 hits. It will take just one success ( unless a crit ) to parry both of those away. That leaves 3 to 4 swings from the Custodes back. Crazy strong.

There has to be some sort of flanking bonus.


Nah. Genestealers. We haven't seen a proper CC unit yet - Dire Avengers sure as hell aren't it, with their mighty "Fists" weapon. I'm guessing the scuttling, Space Hulk dwelling, Terminator eating, Tyranid boys are going to have spade loads of attacks hitting on a 2+.





   
Made in us
Pragmatic Collabirator



Dayton, OH

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
Even without Stormshields, Custodes are going to be very difficult to land a hit on in Melee - they have 5 2+ dice to use as parries if needs be.

Interesting way to run something like a Crisis suit though - give it a low (ish) number of attacks but give it the equivalent rule to the storm shield - it won't hit often, but the hits it does roll can be used as parries. Opens up the "heavy armour but can't do much damage in CC" option.


I'm wondering how Custodes will get hit in melee at all. With 3A at 3+ the Avenger will score 2 hits. It will take just one success ( unless a crit ) to parry both of those away. That leaves 3 to 4 swings from the Custodes back. Crazy strong.

There has to be some sort of flanking bonus.

There's the attacker advantage where the attacker resolves the first success. So if the Avenger activates before the Custodes, they get to swing with one of their hits before the Custodes can storm shield parry them both away.

Likewise, I'll say it again -- I'm betting that you only roll your close combat dice to defend once per activation, so while a Dire Avenger doesn't want to go toe to toe with a Custodes, two Guardians (or whatever the Eldar option with GA >1 might be) might fare better because they'll get first swing and the Custodes isn't rolling his 5 dice once per Guardian, using their coordination to truly outnumber the Custodes.

It also seems pretty apparent that one doesn't run up and engage a Storm Shield Custodes in melee lightly. Keep your range, use your numbers to shoot him first -- you get to activate most of your team to shoot at only a couple Custodes. And the Storm Shield will probably only be carried by Custodes models with the Sentinel Blade, so the ridiculous CC monster can't shoot back outside a 6" range.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




4 dire avengers to a fire team, 3 to a death guard marine fire team. Also, two custodies to a fire team, they only get one right. I can’t imagine 4 of them on the tiny boards working.
So at least from little look, GW seem to think that’s close in power to a marine.
With dire avengers being a little less potent individual.
Wonder how they will handle the exarch.

Honestly not seeing the value in shapes here, seems they doing nothing with it of any interest.

Also, the custodies being so potent. It seems they will blep out any CC fighter we have seen. Not sure if there anything in some of these kill teams that can deal enough damage before they run out of units to grind away.
So I suspect there is still something I hope, seems they not effected by stun. Which would probably be a good way to deal with the power disparity.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 16:10:23


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




United Kingdom

The mention of an overwatch action is interesting - if it is what it sounds like then it feels a bit of an odd one for alternate activation games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
. Also, two custodies to a fire team, they only get one right. I can’t imagine 4 of them on the tiny boards working.


The image in a prior review showed them with the golden girls, which implies (but maybe no more than that) 2 teams.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 16:30:37


 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Yeah I thought Overwatch was interesting too, wonder if it'll be a suppressive fire mechan instead of standard 40k shoot during charge mechanic.

Sisters of Silence are listed on the KT faction list, I'm curious how that will work if for instance Talons of the Emperor is limited to only one Fire Team does that mean you have to choose one or the other or can you mix into a single fire team. My money is on the latter, but if it's the former it means I won't have to finish painting my SoS.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Right, so the Avenger is not a melee specialist and so should be expected to do poorly.

What about shooting? The Custodes will save 2 or 3 times and the Avenger will score 2.7 hits. It would really come down to crits and what rending/balanced would do.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Yeah I thought Overwatch was interesting too, wonder if it'll be a suppressive fire mechan instead of standard 40k shoot during charge mechanic.

Sisters of Silence are listed on the KT faction list, I'm curious how that will work if for instance Talons of the Emperor is limited to only one Fire Team does that mean you have to choose one or the other or can you mix into a single fire team. My money is on the latter, but if it's the former it means I won't have to finish painting my SoS.


I think it is more for positional play. You don't want to expose the model, but you want to shoot if they come into view.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 16:49:32


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I wonder if Overwatch will be real old school like Space Hulk -- anyone coming into LOS gets shot at on 6+ (don't remember the exact rule but something like that), or if it will be only vs charging units.
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Collabirator



Dayton, OH

puree wrote:The mention of an overwatch action is interesting - if it is what it sounds like then it feels a bit of an odd one for alternate activation games.

If I had to guess, Overwatch will be along the lines of "Can interrupt an enemy activation to shoot at a penalty." Whether that interruption happens during a charge or flitting from cover to cover might not be a distinction Overwatch cares about.

Apple fox wrote:4 dire avengers to a fire team, 3 to a death guard marine fire team. Also, two custodies to a fire team, they only get one right. I can’t imagine 4 of them on the tiny boards working.
So at least from little look, GW seem to think that’s close in power to a marine.
With dire avengers being a little less potent individual.
Wonder how they will handle the exarch.

Honestly not seeing the value in shapes here, seems they doing nothing with it of any interest.

Also, the custodies being so potent. It seems they will blep out any CC fighter we have seen. Not sure if there anything in some of these kill teams that can deal enough damage before they run out of units to grind away.
So I suspect there is still something I hope, seems they not effected by stun. Which would probably be a good way to deal with the power disparity.

We don't know how many Marines are in a Fire Team, even if we take your assumption that 4 Custodes is too much for the board and thus Talons are limited to 1 Fire Team also. Marines could come as 4 to a FT (and Dire Avengers who come 4 to a FT almost certainly implies that Craftworld Eldar get 2 FTs per KT, since 8 Dire Avengers is way more appropriate to the 10 Veteran Guardsmen Krieg KT than 4 based on the datacards we've seen for each), or 5 to a FT, or even 6 and still make sense as a full KT while being WAY less tough than the Custodes. So I don't see how the Custodes really gives us any inkling about how many Marines there will be in a Fire Team, nor how powerful a Marine statline will be.

The Red Hobbit wrote:Yeah I thought Overwatch was interesting too, wonder if it'll be a suppressive fire mechan instead of standard 40k shoot during charge mechanic.

Sisters of Silence are listed on the KT faction list, I'm curious how that will work if for instance Talons of the Emperor is limited to only one Fire Team does that mean you have to choose one or the other or can you mix into a single fire team. My money is on the latter, but if it's the former it means I won't have to finish painting my SoS.

It more likely means you can take 2 FTs, either mixing SoS and Custodes, or doubling up on either type. 4 Custodes is 16 actions and 72 wounds, which probably lines up nicely with the 70 wounds and 20 actions ten Veteran Guardsmen would have, or the 98 wounds and 28 actions a hordey Imperial Guard double-FT would field. Keep in mind that there are diminishing returns on actions gained via bulk of models, because moving two models into position costs double the movement as moving one model with a higher APL and individual game impact (killiness, durability, etc). Also, higher individual model wounds scales up exponentially to an extent, as low model counts are less likely to survive attacks to retaliate/act themselves.
   
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We also have to consider, that given what we've seen/what we know, the custodes actions will likely only be 1 shoot and/or 1 fight per activations.
So activating 1 Custodes won't make him into a turret blasting away 4 shooting actions or even charge-fight-charge-fight (they said most actions couldn't be duplicated).
We're most likely looking at move-shoot-charge-fight for the "most damaging" Custodian activation.
My main point being that if there are 4 Custodes, then we're looking at a likely maximum of 4 shoots and 4 fights per round, where 14 guards can do 7 shoots or 7 fights (most likely never able to do both).

So there's definitely "diminishing returns" in how valuable APL is.
   
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[DCM]
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/20/breaking-devastating-weapon-of-war-spotted-in-new-death-korps-of-krieg-kill-team-footage/

it's shovel time

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 17:41:39


 
   
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Hacking Shang Jí





Fayetteville

Kaffis wrote:

If I had to guess, Overwatch will be along the lines of "Can interrupt an enemy activation to shoot at a penalty." Whether that interruption happens during a charge or flitting from cover to cover might not be a distinction Overwatch cares about.


Something like that seems likely given the Defence Tactics ability listed for the Avenger. Seems a bit like AROs in infinity if an operative can declare an Overwatch action during someone else's activation, but, barring other reveals, will be limited to just shooting. I wonder how many times an operative can shoot per Overwatch action. Like do you activate the model and it does an Overwatch action and can then shoot at any active model it can see for the duration of the turn?

The Imperial Navy, A Galatic Force for Good. 
   
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Pragmatic Collabirator



Dayton, OH

Rihgu wrote:
We also have to consider, that given what we've seen/what we know, the custodes actions will likely only be 1 shoot and/or 1 fight per activations.
So activating 1 Custodes won't make him into a turret blasting away 4 shooting actions or even charge-fight-charge-fight (they said most actions couldn't be duplicated).
We're most likely looking at move-shoot-charge-fight for the "most damaging" Custodian activation.
My main point being that if there are 4 Custodes, then we're looking at a likely maximum of 4 shoots and 4 fights per round, where 14 guards can do 7 shoots or 7 fights (most likely never able to do both).

So there's definitely "diminishing returns" in how valuable APL is.

Fight, Fall Back, Shoot is a pretty excellent turn, too, don't get me wrong. But yeah, unless you just keep throwing (single activation? we'll see if there are exceptions like maybe GA that throw wrenches into the multi-model CC works) models into melee with them, they're capped at 2 damaging actions per model per turn, looks like.
   
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Bristol (UK)

Overwatch is a little concerning, it may encourage stalemates as both players want to sit behind cover and overwatch to get the first shot off.
We shall have to see more specifics first though.
   
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Just need boards with lots of terrain

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Have to say a bit disappointed with this reveal. I was expecting the ol' high Init Eldar to have an APL of 3, but the Dire Avengers get stuck at 2. Harlequins are getting APL 3 but it'd be nice if CWE was thrown a bone every now and then.

Same speed as everyone else, too. What really matters about the poor dire avenger is the shuriken cat.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Boosting Black Templar Biker






Which is a dang shame, the Avenger Shuriken Catapult does not look exciting and it's weird that high movement Eldar don't get..a better movement speed.

As for Talons of the Emperor, it was mentioned that Space Marines only get 1 Fire Team right? If that's the case I imagine it'll be the same for Talons and perhaps their options will be 2 Custodes or 1 Custodes and 2 SoS.
   
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It's nice to see my avengers are slow and meh.

The more rules are previewed, the more KT 2.0 looks like it was slapped together in a hurry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 00:10:38


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Blastaar wrote:
It's nice to see my avengers are slow and meh.

The more rules are previewed, the more KT 2.0 looks like it was slapped together in a hurry.


This edition took more effort to made than the previous edition, which is a 90% copied datasheet from normal 40k.
   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Chopstick wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
It's nice to see my avengers are slow and meh.

The more rules are previewed, the more KT 2.0 looks like it was slapped together in a hurry.


This edition took more effort to made than the previous edition, which is a 90% copied datasheet from normal 40k.


Both statements seem compatible, to me.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




If this edition is rushed, then the previous one must be the speedrun world record. Rule might not be good or you might not like it, but they did spent more time writing rule for this edition.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 08:00:08


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Chopstick wrote:
If this edition is rushed, then the previous one must be the speedrun world record. Rule might not be good or you might not like it, but they did spent more time writing rule for this edition.


Indeed, and the one before that was even more rushed

"They spent more time writing it than the last time" and "It's rushed" are still not two incompatible sentences.

IME, games that don't feel rushed go through many, many iterations, and above all, playtest runs of those iterations. You might get an actual "finished" game after the 12th, 13th iteration. They usually don't look much as the first, if at all.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 08:49:27


 
   
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Austria

just that they took more time to put random pieces of rules/idead found elsewhere together does not mean they took the time to make it a decent product instead of just releasing what they had as soon as possible

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Longtime Dakkanaut




United Kingdom

Which is a dang shame, the Avenger Shuriken Catapult does not look exciting and it's weird that high movement Eldar don't get..a better movement speed.


whilst they had a slightly higher move in 40k than standard troops, I don't think they were that fast. Eldar mobility tended to be from other forms of movement.

As to the weapon, we don't know what balanced and rending do.

Balanced makes me wonder whether move and then shoot will be at a penalty, or even maybe that allows it to shoot twice. Rending I assume is likely some save modifier, or soe way of burning through armor.
   
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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
it's weird that high movement Eldar don't get..a better movement speed.


But they could have. In two different ways. And that's why the new measuring system is so great.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 09:44:01


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Bristol (UK)

Balanced on a ranged weapon is interesting.

We saw briefly in their reveal stream that chainswords have balanced. This made sense to me, in RPGs like Dark Heresy chainswords have "Balanced" which makes them better at parrying. Which would seem compatible with the rules for melee we've seen so far.

But on a ranged weapon? That changes the conversation.
Maybe it still does make you better at parrying.
Maybe it does that on a melee weapon, but on a ranged weapon you ignore some penalty somewhere.
Who knows.
   
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Maybe GW is just more confident that the stats of these two particular weapons are balanced

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40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

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Upstate, New York

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Maybe GW is just more confident that the stats of these two particular weapons are balanced




Everything else is either under/over powered, but these guys are great!

I hope that the mechanics for “balanced” are the same. While I’m not a fan of millions of different universal special rules, I like the ones they have to be consistent. It bugs me when you need to remember the corner cases, on what should be a straight forward thing.

   
 
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