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Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf , the soldiers as Target shows some confidence in it imo ,. especially when uygurs exist for such non -voluntary Option of test subjects...

I think it's more about being able to use them as a control group. Knowing where they are, who they're interacting with. It's not like soldiers are considered valuable by their respective countries. And China has one hell of an army size wise.

I've been hearing that the EU will not allow americans in due to covid concerns and our countries disastrous failure at containing it.

I want to ask people in the EU if this is true as I don't trust a lot of US media and suspect these claims might possibly be attempts to gin up hostility in america towards europe and promote a "hell with the rest of the world" attitude to foster isolationist tendencies.

So if you live in the EU do you know if it's true that it's going to exclude or restrict amnericans when it reopens?

cody.d. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf , the soldiers as Target shows some confidence in it imo ,. especially when uygurs exist for such non -voluntary Option of test subjects...

I think it's more about being able to use them as a control group. Knowing where they are, who they're interacting with. It's not like soldiers are considered valuable by their respective countries. And China has one hell of an army size wise.

Erm due to the structures and close associations of the peoples army with the Party (and only the Party) it's safe to say that they certainly are not bottom of the crop,probably even higher then average citizens.

But as a controll Group yes it seems rather likely.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I've been hearing that the EU will not allow americans in due to covid concerns and our countries disastrous failure at containing it.

I want to ask people in the EU if this is true as I don't trust a lot of US media and suspect these claims might possibly be attempts to gin up hostility in america towards europe and promote a "hell with the rest of the world" attitude to foster isolationist tendencies.

So if you live in the EU do you know if it's true that it's going to exclude or restrict amnericans when it reopens?

Actually they just kept the initial ban in place and have put both russia and the USA in the Same category.

I dunno, you generally build a military with the intention of expending it's individuals. And usually those expenditures are purely to further the goal of the party financing things. Besides, those ties would be with the higher ranking elements of the military, who I doubt would be given experimental vaccines and the like that have any chance of killing them. The rank and file often have less value than the equipment they carry.

cody.d. wrote:
I dunno, you generally build a military with the intention of expending it's individuals. And usually those expenditures are purely to further the goal of the party financing things. Besides, those ties would be with the higher ranking elements of the military, who I doubt would be given experimental vaccines and the like that have any chance of killing them. The rank and file often have less value than the equipment they carry.

The military is first and foremost the controll Tool of the Party if their other Systems fail. And an in General immense power broker considering how many posts are covered by generals.
It's loyality is to the Party and the Party alone, it's not a peoples army really for which you have the duty to the whole collective of the Nation above Party ties.

To even compare it to armies that follow an levée on massé principle or General conscription one is to severly misunderstand it and it's own perception and ethos. It's more like Party armies of other extreme Ideologies, not dissimiliar to the SA or the blackshirts or other Party paramilitaries.
Compare that to other "mass armies" , which relly on mass conscription etc. It's a completely diffrent idea behind it and a diffrent ethos aswell.

So the Chinese army is just like the imperial guard then. The soldier's lives are worth less than they gear they're issued and the main purpose of the army is to crush dissent and enforce utter obedience.

I still believe the vaccines were tested for at least a couple weeks on "undesirables" first, that's just the chinese government SOP. Let's not forget the chinese government 'executes" people over dissent then sells the organs for transplant surgery.

Thanks for the info on the travel restrictions on americans, I suspect a lot of american media will still make it like europe is giving the finger to america, because ghawd forbid they admit it;s because america failed to deal with covid in an intelligent, effective manner.

 Matt Swain wrote:
So the Chinese army is just like the imperial guard then. The soldier's lives are worth less than they gear they're issued and the main purpose of the army is to crush dissent and enforce utter obedience.

I still believe the vaccines were tested for at least a couple weeks on "undesirables" first, that's just the chinese government SOP. Let's not forget the chinese government 'executes" people over dissent then sells the organs for transplant surgery.

Thanks for the info on the travel restrictions on americans, I suspect a lot of american media will still make it like europe is giving the finger to america, because ghawd forbid they admit it;s because america failed to deal with covid in an intelligent, effective manner.

I don't think we even know how many people the CPC executes each year, though people have estimated 2K+

But my statement still stands, I have doubts the party values the lives of any of it's soldiers beyond what power they can bring.

This is both expected and somewhat surprising.

https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-no-spike-cities-despite-protests-big-surge-in-states-that-reopened-20200627.html?fbclid=IwAR1BOi5OV6pNLHmhKbIs2b69Y6Hd73G2CiJ3tMiEIs5F913KSL7Kzz0IUUk

IF, and that is a big if, this news is true and I don't claim it is, then as predicted the states that loosened or ended covid control restrictions have seen a huge spike in new cases. As one would expect.

However the states that had huge mass gatherings and protests against police murder and brutality have not seen any spikes in covid after 2 weeks.

I'm trying to think of explanations for this, s far I have:

-The news is false.

-Many protesters i saw were wearing masks. This affected the spread.

-many people did catch covid but were not diagnosed.

-Some environmental factor? Not sure what it could be. strong winds scattering the particles to the point few inhaled enough to initiate infection?

This should be researched to a fair degree. If the news is true then we may learn something about how this disease spreads in wide open air environs.

 Matt Swain wrote:
This is both expected and somewhat surprising.

https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-no-spike-cities-despite-protests-big-surge-in-states-that-reopened-20200627.html?fbclid=IwAR1BOi5OV6pNLHmhKbIs2b69Y6Hd73G2CiJ3tMiEIs5F913KSL7Kzz0IUUk

IF, and that is a big if, this news is true and I don't claim it is, then as predicted the states that loosened or ended covid control restrictions have seen a huge spike in new cases. As one would expect.

However the states that had huge mass gatherings and protests against police murder and brutality have not seen any spikes in covid after 2 weeks.

I'm trying to think of explanations for this, s far I have:

-The news is false.

-Many protesters i saw were wearing masks. This affected the spread.

-many people did catch covid but were not diagnosed.

-Some environmental factor? Not sure what it could be. strong winds scattering the particles to the point few inhaled enough to initiate infection?

This should be researched to a fair degree. If the news is true then we may learn something about how this disease spreads in wide open air environs.

There has been similar things in Australia, several protests for BLM but far, far fewer reported cases for a mass gathering of that size. But 2 people who slipped out of an isolation area managed to create an outbreak in Victora. As you say, could be several different factors at play.

Hmm, I had never even heard australia had a problem with police and blacks let alone that BLM was there.

If the same pattern of mass open air demonstrations not leading to a spike in covid is happening there then this really does merit some real investigation.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Hmm, I had never even heard australia had a problem with police and blacks let alone that BLM was there.

If the same pattern of mass open air demonstrations not leading to a spike in covid is happening there then this really does merit some real investigation.

It's not nearly as bad as it is in USA but yeah, there is a noticeable increase in arrests or excessive uses of force against aboriginal people. I know it's slightly off topic but you may find this article interesting.https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/sick-to-my-stomach-indigenous-activist-jacinta-price-slams-virtue-signalling-black-lives-matter-protesters-and-says-they-arent-interested-in-aboriginal-deaths-unless-they-are-killed-by-white-men/ar-BB15cm7O?ocid=spartanntp

Though it is on topic I remember hearing that black communities are more severely affected by covid than communities of other backgrounds. Possibly due to access to medical care?

Well, hopefully not offending anyone but yes it does seem like covid is hitting non whites harder in america, according to basic statistics.

I don't want to get into that lest it open a very large can of very nasty worms tho.

 Overread wrote:
Basically its Trumps only "Trump card" to throw the US wealth/influence around. It's not surprising, other nations will do exactly the same and you can bet most "first world" nations got to supplies before poorer nations.

It won't earn the USA any respect internationally, but nationally its a big thing.

It's also nothing new, we've seen them intercept and otherwise try to bribe/force to get supplies of PPE and other elements.

Yep. Anybody who thinks US is some sort of benign ally is kidding themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I've been hearing that the EU will not allow americans in due to covid concerns and our countries disastrous failure at containing it.

I want to ask people in the EU if this is true as I don't trust a lot of US media and suspect these claims might possibly be attempts to gin up hostility in america towards europe and promote a "hell with the rest of the world" attitude to foster isolationist tendencies.

So if you live in the EU do you know if it's true that it's going to exclude or restrict amnericans when it reopens?

There's just FIFTEEN countries from the world(outside EU) that are on recommended list of "free to come". US is not one of those yes.

Mind you that's just recommendation as EU can't legally enforce it. It's up to each country how they follow it.

EU had outside borders(and largely inside borders as well) closed for a while. But as things are calming down borders are being opened with countries that meet certain criteria. US has infection cases coming up fast enough it's not on free list.

It's not specifically anti-america move. As said it's just 15 countries. Even inside EU some countries aren't welcome. Sweden has managed to isolate itself out from being able to visit(or being allowed target) with it's policies as well.

Country needs to have rate of infection below certain treshhold before it gets added to the list of countries recommended to be allowed to come freely. Numbers. America gets it's rate under that and it's added to the list(not the moment it does that though. List is updated in 2 week cycles)

edit: Oh and another requirement is that there shouldn't be doubt about RELIABILITY of data. No cases of "suddenly jumping out of window" so to speak.

tneva82 wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Basically its Trumps only "Trump card" to throw the US wealth/influence around. It's not surprising, other nations will do exactly the same and you can bet most "first world" nations got to supplies before poorer nations.

It won't earn the USA any respect internationally, but nationally its a big thing.

It's also nothing new, we've seen them intercept and otherwise try to bribe/force to get supplies of PPE and other elements.

Yep. Anybody who thinks US is some sort of benign ally is kidding themselves.

Lets be fair though, this is exactly what happened with the swine fluc vaccine in the US and Europe. They bought up most of the stocks, leaving poorer countries without. As predictable that it is that Trump will turn this up to 11, it isn't exactly a new thing. Even European countries have formed small groups to buy up stocks of potential vaccines.

And here i thought the who wanted to Make it accessible for all countries?

That statement hasn't aged so well.but the WHO anyways has Made a real Bad Figure so far....

When a drug is accessible to all nations that just means there's no trade embargoes and such. If one nation manages to buy all the stock then that's it.

The core of the issue is that there just isn't enough of the drug for the whole world to have it at once when most of the world wants it at the same time. So there will always be shortages. Firstworld nations will fight over it; then they'll fight over donating to poorer nations to secure their support (eg I'd wager you might see China donate to African nations etc....).



As for protests there's a few potential elements to consider:
1) The protests were outside. It's basically shown that outside/windy conditions can help disperse the droplets and reduce the chance of infection spreading

2) Many were wearing masks, which has again been shown to help reduce the spread of the virus from infected people to others.

3) It might be that the spike is still to come and hasn't hit yet. Ergo that the "No Spike" is simply being announced too early.

4) It might be that many of the protesters came from a wide area of dispersal initially. Thus the first wave of spike infections isn't seen because its spread over the general increases in infection rate that the US is seeing right now. That the actual impact will be in 3-4 weeks when those who were infected have then infected families and coworkers and such and then we see a mass rise of spiked cases. So instead of the fewer protesters showing it up, its instead a few weeks later with everyone they infected being the real spike.

My concerns would be all those protests didn't just appear outside on the streets; they got there somehow. That means things like public transport and busses and coaches and the like as well as on food through streets and underpasses and the like. All perfectly good places for the virus to spread.

It would be heartening to think that a bit of wind can disrupt the virus spread that much (esp in the UK with all these outdoor beach gatherings); however I think that's a pipe dream at this stage

The UK vaccine is by a group including Oxford University and has been in human trials for some weeks. Some of my work colleagues are in the volunteer group, and wrote about their experience in the staff magazine.

If the BLM protests did not provoke a spike, some possible reasons are that it's a lot safer to stand outside 1 to 2 metre from mask-wearing people for a few seconds or minutes than it is to sit down in a bar or hairdresser for an extended period of time.

I mean, the chance of getting infected is influenced by how close you to an infected person, and for how long.

There's also the element that if you're walking around the streets,it's unlikely you are touching things with the virus on them, then touching your face.

Whereas if you got into a shop, the items you pick might have virus on them.

I was in the supermarket at the weekend. I saw a man who wasn't wearing a mask cough into his hand. He then went on shopping. At the till, the till guy was wearing a face shield and gloves. After handling the items he went and scratched his nose.

Those are behaviours which help spread infection.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Well, hopefully not offending anyone but yes it does seem like covid is hitting non whites harder in america, according to basic statistics.

I don't want to get into that lest it open a very large can of very nasty worms tho.

The least politically provocative statement that can be made about that is that there are a lot of minority people in "essential" jobs in our cities, while a lot of the city dwelling white people are in a point in their careers that do well as "work from home" and thus have had lower risk of infection in places like nyc. Part of this is age related -- the average age for a white person in the usa is 58, but the average age of minority folk in the USA is literally half that. The folks significantly older than 58 are likely to be retired, or at least, more likely than someone who is 30. Lots of people working as lower management at 28 years might be upper management by 58, and guess which management tells the other group to stay and run the store during the plague? Similarly, there are issues of density of housing, which tends to follow such things (30 years ago, a lot of the people now in retirement or semi-retirement may have been a lot less wealthy and tended to rent in lower cost, denser built living spaces. White flight into suburbs has been a documented trend since the 1960s and 70s. There are also plenty of comorbid health conditions, that also disproportionaly impact the minority populations--high blood pressure in african americans is a topic all its own and thought to be a legacy of the slave trade, genetically, but the upshot is, black american high blood pressure is qualitatively different in its treatement and pathology than non-black american high blood pressure. If I remember right, BP disfunction is a major, major risk of death for covid, so that one thing alone could in theory account for a lot of this difference. Even if the prevalence of the two racial groups for blood pressure issues were the same, the difference in severity would still exist, and the difference in exact cellular and physiologic pathology. None of this is "nasty" its just the way things have played out demographically in the US over the last century, but yeah, it is entirely possible that the virus picks on people of color for reasons other than the current US society.. Also, it occurs to me right now,I haven't heard about is the possibility that menthol cigarettes (whcih are in the USA nearly historically only a minority and female used item) may have given some baseline lung damage to those populations that non-menthol cigarettes may not have. (Menthol forms a substance rather like asbestos in the lungs, over time, its possible part of the issue is that a few decades ago, it wasn't particularly uncommon to have people smoking (who are now the people of the age to be affected by covid). In other words, there are lifestyle choices and factors that are related to the change in risk from covid that can probably explain a lot of this, even without positing that the virus itself has a racial agenda.
Finally, the US hispanic population appears to have been slow to hear the good words about covid prevention, for whatever reason. Perhaps during a culture war and such, trust of government experts being at an all time low, or perhaps because that group tends to be the youngest average age group,I can't guess. There have been some studies in virginia that showed strikingly high rates of seroconversion inside mainly hispanic housing areas -- take that with the grain of salt that serologic tests of unspecified manufacturer always get, a high false positive rate.

I believe the UK and other nations have identified that those of African decent have a higher chance of more serious complications from Corona, irrespective of other influences such as living conditions and life style. Far as I know there's no proven reason why, but then we are still very new to this virus.

Not Online!!! wrote:
And here i thought the who wanted to Make it accessible for all countries?

That statement hasn't aged so well.but the WHO anyways has Made a real Bad Figure so far....

That is what the WHO wants, but the WHO has no say in those matters. It can't force countries to cooperate and it doesn't have the funds to buy supplies like Western countries do. In these cases the WHO gets outbid and sidelined.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
And here i thought the who wanted to Make it accessible for all countries?

That statement hasn't aged so well.but the WHO anyways has Made a real Bad Figure so far....

That is what the WHO wants, but the WHO has no say in those matters. It can't force countries to cooperate and it doesn't have the funds to buy supplies like Western countries do. In these cases the WHO gets outbid and sidelined.

Meh, maybee lessons will be learned, like decentralised mask production and other medicinal supplies, which would be damn important for everyone outside of china.....

Probably not, because that could cut into profit margins.

There was an open air funeral going on at the nearby church yesterday. The hymns were carrying all across the neighbourhood. These are strange times, yet I feel like a lot of us have become closer to strangers...ironically.

We’re moving to a different stage on Friday. I’m still going to wait to see how things pan out first before I start going out to places.

Incidentally, small correction -- my friend who is on the high unemployment confessed to me last night that HIS unemployment, specifically, is running out after 3 months, which makes some sense as he was unemployed some over the last year before covid came, and may have run his benefits out. Or, well, he could be lying cause he doesn't want to pay me back a loan, which I begin to think is what is going on and its somewhat unsettling to see such behavior in a friend I had to bail out.

This personal finance tragedy is relevant cause it means I misspoke in here. Its much more relevant because he owes me money, a debt he consistantly has been forgetting for about a year, and it looks like my friendship with him will be weakened a bit at my own kindness not being repaid when I know damn well his finances are stable again.

But .. while the big excess subsidy unemployment may end abruptly in end of july, there will continue, apparently, to be normal, but extended, unemployment out to 39 or so weeks. So perhaps not as dire an economic crash as it seemed looms.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The UK vaccine is by a group including Oxford University and has been in human trials for some weeks. Some of my work colleagues are in the volunteer group, and wrote about their experience in the staff magazine.

If the BLM protests did not provoke a spike, some possible reasons are that it's a lot safer to stand outside 1 to 2 metre from mask-wearing people for a few seconds or minutes than it is to sit down in a bar or hairdresser for an extended period of time.

I mean, the chance of getting infected is influenced by how close you to an infected person, and for how long.

There's also the element that if you're walking around the streets,it's unlikely you are touching things with the virus on them, then touching your face.

Whereas if you got into a shop, the items you pick might have virus on them.

I was in the supermarket at the weekend. I saw a man who wasn't wearing a mask cough into his hand. He then went on shopping. At the till, the till guy was wearing a face shield and gloves. After handling the items he went and scratched his nose.

Those are behaviours which help spread infection.

Seems to be getting clearer that factors that will put you most at risk include:

- indoors without superior ventilation
- close proximity to others
- extended period of time
- lots of gum-flapping without masks

If bars/pubs, restaurants, churches, and workplaces sound like a four-bagger COVID home run...you would be correct, and most superspreader incidents seem to have happened in those places.

also its risky at home. Hi rise apartments with shared ventilation (usually in the form of kitchen and bathroom venting systems), close proximity to family members and an almost implausible task of treating the home folk like strangers in the covid age (who wears masks around their wife? around their kids?) .. extended time, etc etc, AND even sleeping next to them, both without masks. Many secondary spread sources are in the home (although the bit about air coming in from outside your home can be defended against.)

Dukeofstuff wrote:
also its risky at home. Hi rise apartments with shared ventilation (usually in the form of kitchen and bathroom venting systems), close proximity to family members and an almost implausible task of treating the home folk like strangers in the covid age (who wears masks around their wife? around their kids?) .. extended time, etc etc, AND even sleeping next to them, both without masks. Many secondary spread sources are in the home (although the bit about air coming in from outside your home can be defended against.)

Oh yeah...IIRC, that's where China did it better from a containment standpoint. Test positive and they quarantine you for two weeks in a facility away from your family. Not send you home and tell you to call when you can't breathe..and BTW try not to infect your family.

Of course that could never fly here for a hundred reasons.

With lockdown lifting, was able to get my car MOT’d today.

She failed. £840 later.....

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
A proper track and trace system with a good app will be very useful when the pandemic after Covid-19 begins.

yes, allbeit i wonder , why wasn't that something not done allready?

I mean i get it that governments are slow to adopt such means but especially over here , mountain rescuing and weather apps have basically existed since the first Apps came out, meanwhile something like this which also can occure nothing thought to it?

There are some reports that have highlighted this is why S Korea, Taiwan, Singapore etc. have been so successful in controlling the virus.
They had a plan ready from SARS which has been kept on the boil, and that swung into action as soon as the threat of Covid became clear.

Contrast with the UK, which had carried out a threat assessment exercise a few years ago and has buried the report which recommended steps to allow the country to deal with a pandemic.

 gorgon wrote:

Seems to be getting clearer that factors that will put you most at risk include:
- indoors without superior ventilation
- close proximity to others
- extended period of time
- lots of gum-flapping without masks

If bars/pubs, restaurants, churches, and workplaces sound like a four-bagger COVID home run...you would be correct, and most superspreader incidents seem to have happened in those places.

There are some interesting stats in this report, based on a Japanese study, which pretty much lines up with what you have written above
https://www.ft.com/content/2418ff87-1d41-41b5-b638-38f5164a2e94

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With lockdown lifting, was able to get my car MOT’d today.

She failed. £840 later.....

Ouch, my condolences.

And you’ve just reminded me that mine’s is overdue to. However, we in Northern Ireland had problems with the MOT centres even before the virus hit.

Got my annual bonus late June, so to be honest it’s the best time of year for such a bill!

And hey, at least I know she’s roadworthy! Main killer was the four new tyres, so next year should be considerably cheaper.

Flatmate reminded me as his needs doing next month. Agreed to waive his rent this month to help - and now he’s not doing it until next month. Words will be had about the rent!