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Made in ro
Stalwart Tribune




Bath

Audustum wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You know what would fix this whole BS problem? Digital editions.


honestly? im hoping they do that with this planned warhammer+ thing, make it part of the service (maybe verify it with the same warhammer app codes they are already using, so they dont miss out on those sweet dead tree sales).


Dead tree sales is why it'll never happen. If we could just pay some amount per-month to be subscribed to all the rules, they wouldn't get their current bonus of having us pay for the app and then pay for books to use in the app.


which is why i said use the already in use codes printed in the hardcopy format to unlock the full digital versions on warhammer plus, thus keeping those sales up while letting those who want it have the convenience of a proper digial copy (instead of just finding a cheapo pirate scan copy instead).

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 500pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




xerxeskingofking wrote:
Audustum wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You know what would fix this whole BS problem? Digital editions.


honestly? im hoping they do that with this planned warhammer+ thing, make it part of the service (maybe verify it with the same warhammer app codes they are already using, so they dont miss out on those sweet dead tree sales).


Dead tree sales is why it'll never happen. If we could just pay some amount per-month to be subscribed to all the rules, they wouldn't get their current bonus of having us pay for the app and then pay for books to use in the app.


which is why i said use the already in use codes printed in the hardcopy format to unlock the full digital versions on warhammer plus, thus keeping those sales up while letting those who want it have the convenience of a proper digial copy (instead of just finding a cheapo pirate scan copy instead).


Perhaps there is confusion.

Code in book to unlock digital version = what we have now.

Are you proposing GW make both physical books and then digital books (charged for the same amount of price as a physical book)? If yes, the issue is then people won't want the subscription (and it'll be a hard sell to say: buy a digital book AND make a subscription to get...a digital book!).

GW's end goal: all players pay full cost of book and pay for service (and likely pay separate service fee for Warhammer+ which is just lore stuff compared to the app, which is game stuff).
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




What they have now is a blanket refusal to do digital, because they are trying to desperately push this subscription idea. They want to be DnD beyond, but cut out the middleman.

Which is defeating the purpose. The reason DnD beyond is working and people like it is because it's easier than the alternative (Books).

The current app is so obviously bad and messed up that it's easier to become a frequenter of the men of Tortuga than to honestly put in the work. And GW only has to blame themselves.

Back to Custodes, if they were to let us take the Land Raider Crusader, I would take that for 260 points. I feel like that would be perfect. With the HB, and the twin Assault cannons, that's some pretty effective dakka for the cost.
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






According to the leaks, the marine LR goes to 265 and ours is 280. +1 BS and 6+++ is worth 15 points on it i suppose.

The LR might see play, as it is better at shooting than a Telemon, has more wounds, is faster, but looses the invun.


If you were running 2-3 telemons before, you could run 2 land raiders with the 5++ vexilla and you'd be at almost the same spot.

Dropping the grav tanks to 205 was good, and made taking 3 alot more attractive. I gained an extra venetari and daggers on 5 of them for free in my E Imperatus list.

My shadowkeepers list stays the same, as i had one telemon and one tank.

My 8 dreadnought list will now have to drop the stormcannons for autocannons, which is anoying, but not a huge nerf.

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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




How many of us honestly think GW will keep the balance 60/40, with FW/GW models for custodes in 9th? I don't. I don't see them making new models though, I see them allowing the use of other models, the full lineup of Contemptor Dread weapon options, the full lineup of LR options, and maybe a Venerable Thunderhawk?

For those in the know with the Lore, has Cawl ever remarked about how his brilliance extends to making Primaris Custodes? Because in Avenging son, he kinda says multiuple times he's smarter than the Emperor. I honestly don't know how he isn't shot right then and there.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm not sure it takes all that much to be smarter than the Emperor, his track record wasn't exactly great on most of his big decisions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/31 03:35:16


 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm not sure it takes all that much to be smarter than the Emperor, his track record wasn't exactly great on most of his big decisions.

His track record wasn't that bad, only really fell apart at the end and that was only because chaos took advantage of a lot of little gripes to turn his sons against him


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
According to the leaks, the marine LR goes to 265 and ours is 280. +1 BS and 6+++ is worth 15 points on it i suppose.

The codex points got leaked?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/31 05:42:34


Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what." - Stephen Fry
 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






for the chapter approved stuff. Before all they had was the FW custodes stuff, but then the regular codex unit got leaked.

Wardens are down 5pts, which even further invalidates spear guard.

I Can actually see using wardens now in a list that runs 2 land raiders (instead of telemons).

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Made in at
Dakka Veteran




I have a question: I skipped through the last TTitans game where they played the new admech VS necrons and the admech player used a 20man blob of skitarii Vanguard to delete a 20man necron warrior blob in one shooting phase. He did this by using a 1cp strat where the skitarii Vanguard autowound on a 4+ to hit. He did the same thing the next turn and deleted another 20man warrior blob.

So did they use the stratagem correctly? That seems too good somehow, but if they did...should we be worried? Should everyone be worried? That is some ridiculous firepower that bypasses our first line of defense entirely, which is our very good T5 on infantry. Nvm that they can also push through a lot of wounds on vehicles as well using that stratagem.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's still overtuned and will probably see a nerf, but the 4+ to hit auto-wounding strat doesn't work on vehicles.

I would be more worried about the 40 point upgrade for canonesses in the new book that lets them pick a fights last within 3" and then once per game also lets friendly core or character units ignore invuln saves in melee against targets within X" (didn't say what X was, but that it would vary based on the size of the miracle dice used). Smash canonesses were already scary, adding fights last and ignore invuln saves on top makes them pretty absurd, even if it does take from them 50ish to 90ish points.
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




yukishiro1 wrote:
It's still overtuned and will probably see a nerf, but the 4+ to hit auto-wounding strat doesn't work on vehicles.

I would be more worried about the 40 point upgrade for canonesses in the new book that lets them pick a fights last within 3" and then once per game also lets friendly core or character units ignore invuln saves in melee against targets within X" (didn't say what X was, but that it would vary based on the size of the miracle dice used). Smash canonesses were already scary, adding fights last and ignore invuln saves on top makes them pretty absurd, even if it does take from them 50ish to 90ish points.


Thanks for clarifying that the admech strat doesn't work on vehicles. Stil absurdly strong....

I've just seen the sisters news as well...ignoring invulns is gonna hurt. Also, what's up with everyone everywhere getting fight last? Shortly everyone has it, everyone is going to fight last and its going to go back to who charged....
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, every army seems to be getting at least one, often two ways to make something fight last. It's clearly a new pet project. Which is funny because in AOS rules that manipulate who gets to activate first were for a long time the most common complaint people had with the game...and then GW was like "oh, let's add those to 40k too!" Meanwhile, GW took the most common complaint from 40k - shooting being too strong without real terrain rules - and added it to AOS, so now that's the most common complaint there. Go figure.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Anyone wanna talk about how the new orks are going to be basically S/T:5 baseline?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Anyone wanna talk about how the new orks are going to be basically S/T:5 baseline?


Yeah, custodes are feeling less and less unique. Hey, at least we still have the 2+, 3++ saves.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




 cuda1179 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Anyone wanna talk about how the new orks are going to be basically S/T:5 baseline?


Yeah, custodes are feeling less and less unique. Hey, at least we still have the 2+, 3++ saves.


That's about it too. Gravis was already getting up in our design space. This just adds more.

Honestly, I do expect GW to bang our something awesome for us. My issue is we probably won't see it till late 2022 at this rate
   
Made in de
Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos






Sisters and Admech are released two weeks apart. Orks are next then Grey Knights and Thousand Sons which leaves 11 Codices to be announced. So worst case our codex is the last that would mean another 13 before the Custodes one comes out if they release one codex per month it would be another 14 month so October 2022.
But it is more likely that our codex is somewhere in the middle so 7 month January of 2022. Or late this year if GW keeps a 2 week release schedule which is unlikely because of corona and other systems like AoS

Codices with unknown date:

Adeptus Custodes
Astra Militarum
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Knights
Chaos Space Marines
Craftworlds
Genestealer Cults
Grey Knights (announced on May 29 )
Harlequins
Imperial Knights
T’au Empire
Thousand Sons (announced on May 29)
Tyranids


On the Topic of Tactics:
I had a game against DE with my Nids and got tabled on turn 5. His list was not even that competetive but when they have for example a 60 point model with 12 strong attacks there is not much you can do with Nids. I plan on bringing Custodes next what would you recommend agaisnt DE?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/01 09:03:25


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




On topic: Bikes, dakka bots, Sisters? I've seen sisters do good work against DE for the cost. If nothing else it's just one more thing they have to get through.

On release date:

I feel like we may get a White Dwarf release thing. I have zero reason or facts to point to this being true, I just feel GW is going to give up on the faction this edition. They are sooo far behind, and they don't really care about our faction if the damned ORKS are now Custodes level in stats, and everyone out-melees us. Our only gimmick is our invulns, and I don't see them wasting a codex on that?
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
On topic: Bikes, dakka bots, Sisters? I've seen sisters do good work against DE for the cost. If nothing else it's just one more thing they have to get through.

On release date:

I feel like we may get a White Dwarf release thing. I have zero reason or facts to point to this being true, I just feel GW is going to give up on the faction this edition. They are sooo far behind, and they don't really care about our faction if the damned ORKS are now Custodes level in stats, and everyone out-melees us. Our only gimmick is our invulns, and I don't see them wasting a codex on that?


God damn it man, we've had this discussion 2 times already. GW is NOT going to condemn us to die in white dwarf. Why? Because custodes are a very popular and beginner friendly faction with very recent kits, that also sell quite well. Your fears are completely unfounded. We are far behind because we were one of the first codices in 8th and the age is starting to show.

And no, the new beast snagga orks are not custodes, they still only have one wound and a terrible save. I also don't like that gravis marines and beast snagga orks infringe on the T5 infantry design space that made use somewhat unique, but there is no reason to scream fire, yet.

Edit: I don't mean to sound confrontational and I understand your grievances, but the hyperbole has to stop.

Edit2: I will grant though, in light of the current rules preview on paragon warsuits, that they are just better custodes in absolutely every regard. S/T5, 2+ save, 4 wounds and -1 dmg. So yeah, sisters get mecha custodes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/01 12:18:04


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




 nordsturmking wrote:
Sisters and Admech are released two weeks apart. Orks are next then Grey Knights and Thousand Sons which leaves 11 Codices to be announced. So worst case our codex is the last that would mean another 13 before the Custodes one comes out if they release one codex per month it would be another 14 month so October 2022.
But it is more likely that our codex is somewhere in the middle so 7 month January of 2022. Or late this year if GW keeps a 2 week release schedule which is unlikely because of corona and other systems like AoS

Codices with unknown date:

Adeptus Custodes
Astra Militarum
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Knights
Chaos Space Marines
Craftworlds
Genestealer Cults
Grey Knights (announced on May 29 )
Harlequins
Imperial Knights
T’au Empire
Thousand Sons (announced on May 29)
Tyranids


On the Topic of Tactics:
I had a game against DE with my Nids and got tabled on turn 5. His list was not even that competetive but when they have for example a 60 point model with 12 strong attacks there is not much you can do with Nids. I plan on bringing Custodes next what would you recommend agaisnt DE?


So I play Custodes and DE. Here's my recommendations for facing DE with the golden bananas:

1. You need anti-transport shooting and then anti-infantry shooting. Hurricane Bolter jetbikes are ideal for killing the contents of Raiders. To break the Raiders themselves, you'll likely want gun-Telemons or Caladius tanks. You can't rely on something like Venatarii or Terminators to do it because they need strat support and you're going to want to crack open 2-3 Raiders per-turn for the first two turns.

2. Do not risk fighting/charging them in melee if you can avoid it (spoiler: you won't be able to totally avoid it, but try). Archons and Incubi can both make you fight last, even if you Stooping Dive'd, and that is going to be very bad and very painful.

3. Save your Arcane Genetic Alchemy for when the Liquifiers are being spammed on you because it should overwrite their +1 to Wound (just like Transhuman does).

4. That said, in general, you want to try and board position the following matchups: Dreads vs. Liquifiers (the -1 damage also cancels out their boost), Sword + Board into Wyches (you'll be taking all their attacks on a 2+ unless they're Strife and use a strat or roll a 6 to wound) and Dreads into Incubi (I know, double duty for these guys). If you're using Terminators/Jetbikes try to keep them out of melee.

5. For stratagems, keep Emperor's Auspice for the Wyches/Bloodbrides (they use re-rolls the most) and Arcane Genetic Alchemy for the Incubi/Liquifiers (they benefit from bonus to wound, though only the former if Drazhar is around). It's also fair to Auspice Drazhar's target as he needs re-rolls quite a bit.

6. Kill Succubi with shooting. Do NOT enter combat with them. Mere mortals generally get wrecked fighting any combination of Tryptych Whip/Precision Blows/Competitive Edge/Dancer's Edge/Dark Lotus Toxin/Razorflail.

7. The name of the game will be just trying to hold objectives and score for 3 rounds. Do it for 3 and you probably can open a lead they can't overcome, only do it for 2 and they'll rip you apart.

8. Herd the Prey will almost certainly be taken against you. Have fast things so you can try and be in all table quarters. Remember, it's 2 points per table quarter you are not in from turns 2-5. So if you got tabled T4, they would score 8 points on it T5. You really need to hang onto these edges. Since you'll be trying to be in the quarters anyway, Engage will help you pick up points while doing so but it will also make you VERY feast or famine.

9. If you're fighting a Ssylyth/Urghul party build you're in good shape I think. We don't care about the tarpit. You're much more in danger from mass Dark Lance builds (most Druks have about 6-7 of them, but some get as high as 12-16 or even 20) or mass Wych builds (some guy just did great at a tournament with like 60 Wyches).

10. Eviscerating Fly-By is mostly a meme but if you DO see 20 Hellions stay away and shoot them ASAP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/01 13:53:53


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Anyone wanna talk about how the new orks are going to be basically S/T:5 baseline?


I support GW making bold choices in the rules like this, and am eager to see what bold choices they make for custodes. Orks getting this is way less annoying than marines who kind of encroach on the design space of every faction

But always with the fear that GW makes no bold choices and puts out a boring bland placeholder of a codex for them.




Audustum wrote:
 nordsturmking wrote:
Sisters and Admech are released two weeks apart. Orks are next then Grey Knights and Thousand Sons which leaves 11 Codices to be announced. So worst case our codex is the last that would mean another 13 before the Custodes one comes out if they release one codex per month it would be another 14 month so October 2022.
But it is more likely that our codex is somewhere in the middle so 7 month January of 2022. Or late this year if GW keeps a 2 week release schedule which is unlikely because of corona and other systems like AoS

Codices with unknown date:

Adeptus Custodes
Astra Militarum
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Knights
Chaos Space Marines
Craftworlds
Genestealer Cults
Grey Knights (announced on May 29 )
Harlequins
Imperial Knights
T’au Empire
Thousand Sons (announced on May 29)
Tyranids


On the Topic of Tactics:
I had a game against DE with my Nids and got tabled on turn 5. His list was not even that competetive but when they have for example a 60 point model with 12 strong attacks there is not much you can do with Nids. I plan on bringing Custodes next what would you recommend agaisnt DE?


So I play Custodes and DE. Here's my recommendations for facing DE with the golden bananas:

1. You need anti-transport shooting and then anti-infantry shooting. Hurricane Bolter jetbikes are ideal for killing the contents of Raiders. To break the Raiders themselves, you'll likely want gun-Telemons or Caladius tanks. You can't rely on something like Venatarii or Terminators to do it because they need strat support and you're going to want to crack open 2-3 Raiders per-turn for the first two turns.

2. Do not risk fighting/charging them in melee if you can avoid it (spoiler: you won't be able to totally avoid it, but try). Archons and Incubi can both make you fight last, even if you Stooping Dive'd, and that is going to be very bad and very painful.

3. Save your Arcane Genetic Alchemy for when the Liquifiers are being spammed on you because it should overwrite their +1 to Wound (just like Transhuman does).

4. That said, in general, you want to try and board position the following matchups: Dreads vs. Liquifiers (the -1 damage also cancels out their boost), Sword + Board into Wyches (you'll be taking all their attacks on a 2+ unless they're Strife and use a strat or roll a 6 to wound) and Dreads into Incubi (I know, double duty for these guys). If you're using Terminators/Jetbikes try to keep them out of melee.

5. For stratagems, keep Emperor's Auspice for the Wyches/Bloodbrides (they use re-rolls the most) and Arcane Genetic Alchemy for the Incubi/Liquifiers (they benefit from bonus to wound, though only the former if Drazhar is around). It's also fair to Auspice Drazhar's target as he needs re-rolls quite a bit.

6. Kill Succubi with shooting. Do NOT enter combat with them. Mere mortals generally get wrecked fighting any combination of Tryptych Whip/Precision Blows/Competitive Edge/Dancer's Edge/Dark Lotus Toxin/Razorflail.

7. The name of the game will be just trying to hold objectives and score for 3 rounds. Do it for 3 and you probably can open a lead they can't overcome, only do it for 2 and they'll rip you apart.

8. Herd the Prey will almost certainly be taken against you. Have fast things so you can try and be in all table quarters. Remember, it's 2 points per table quarter you are not in from turns 2-5. So if you got tabled T4, they would score 8 points on it T5. You really need to hang onto these edges. Since you'll be trying to be in the quarters anyway, Engage will help you pick up points while doing so but it will also make you VERY feast or famine.

9. If you're fighting a Ssylyth/Urghul party build you're in good shape I think. We don't care about the tarpit. You're much more in danger from mass Dark Lance builds (most Druks have about 6-7 of them, but some get as high as 12-16 or even 20) or mass Wych builds (some guy just did great at a tournament with like 60 Wyches).

10. Eviscerating Fly-By is mostly a meme but if you DO see 20 Hellions stay away and shoot them ASAP.



Take 3 telemons. Telemons are a hard counter for drukhari. Very hard for them to take out without dramatic compromises.

You want them to have gun and combat because they have to be able to mulch the MSU of drukhari squads, and a fist is fairly solid at that, and you need to drive them off objectives.

If you don't have telemons, don't bother, you lose.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The flamer on the fist is what makes it good against drukhari infantry, that's honestly better than the fist itself, which is pretty junk against DE except to stop them from charging in raiders to bog you down.

The Galatus is even better vs DE IMO; point for point it's almost exactly as durable - more in melee due to the -1 to hit - and it fights way better than a telemon vs DE, and its flamer shoots double the shots. Doesn't have the same ranged threat, but it's impossible to built a custodes list that actually has enough ranged threat to really matter vs DE so I don't think it's worth even trying. Three telemons with fists/cannons only kills one raider per turn at range even if all three can target the same one, and until you have the shooting to be be able to kill 2-3 raiders T1, it doesn't really matter .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/02 01:58:55


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
The flamer on the fist is what makes it good against drukhari infantry, that's honestly better than the fist itself, which is pretty junk against DE except to stop them from charging in raiders to bog you down.

The Galatus is even better vs DE IMO; point for point it's almost exactly as durable - more in melee due to the -1 to hit - and it fights way better than a telemon vs DE, and its flamer shoots double the shots. Doesn't have the same ranged threat, but it's impossible to built a custodes list that actually has enough ranged threat to really matter vs DE so I don't think it's worth even trying. Three telemons with fists/cannons only kills one raider per turn at range even if all three can target the same one, and until you have the shooting to be be able to kill 2-3 raiders T1, it doesn't really matter .


Deldar are rocking on the thin edge of overkill. Squads of 5 to 10 models are all you need to realistically trade with most heavy infantry in the game, and raider dark lances supress tanks pretty hard.

That's why you want the telemon by the by, it survives 6 to 10 dark lances best, and laughs at liquifiers in a way a galatus won't.

The shooting damage is actually perfectly placed for atritting raiders. But you want the str7 gun now and not the dual band AT gun.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




With the new points nerf to Telemon, I'm really looking more at how a max squad of Venetari could do against DE. It's an 18 ablative wound unit, with a 2+/4++6+++, doesn't degrade, has fly, and twice the movement, for 40 points more, and is frankly, much better at objectives. With the strat, it's 24 shots of S6 AP2 D2 isn't bad either. Plus free DS. It doesn't get the -1 to wounds though.
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 cuda1179 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Anyone wanna talk about how the new orks are going to be basically S/T:5 baseline?


Yeah, custodes are feeling less and less unique. Hey, at least we still have the 2+, 3++ saves.


And WS2, BS2, 3 wounds.

Plus codex coming up with it's own changes. You aren't expecting custodians to not be changed with new codex are you?

Yeah sucks for now but unless GW freezes all codexes forever somebody is always behind others.

At least the longer it takes for your codex come up the more powerful you are and will soon laugh as you will smash sisters, dark eldars etc at ease with S7 T7 W5 basic custodians firing assault 6 S6 -2 D3 custodian storm bolters

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/02 11:46:58


2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




tneva82 wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Anyone wanna talk about how the new orks are going to be basically S/T:5 baseline?


Yeah, custodes are feeling less and less unique. Hey, at least we still have the 2+, 3++ saves.


And WS2, BS2, 3 wounds.

Plus codex coming up with it's own changes. You aren't expecting custodians to not be changed with new codex are you?

Yeah sucks for now but unless GW freezes all codexes forever somebody is always behind others.

At least the longer it takes for your codex come up the more powerful you are and will soon laugh as you will smash sisters, dark eldars etc at ease with S7 T7 W5 basic custodians firing assault 6 S6 -2 D3 custodian storm bolters





But seriously, I'll settle for an extra wound on infantry, 2 wounds on anything non-infantry, and multiple attack profiles on spears/axes.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




stratigo wrote:

That's why you want the telemon by the by, it survives 6 to 10 dark lances best, and laughs at liquifiers in a way a galatus won't.


The math on this doesn't check out; point for point the Galatus is comparable at surviving every major DE ranged profile to the Telemon and better at surviving in melee. While also costing less points, so you are not so out-MSUed. 3 Galatus are cheaper and more resilient than 2 Telemon, in addition to giving you more bodies on the table and non-degrading profiles. The only time a Telemon is arguably better is if you have only a single one that can be targeted and you can shadowkeepers it to absorb an entire round of DE shooting. But that never happens in the real world, they'll just switch to a better target once you pop shadowkeepers for the first DL.

And that's even before DT liq wracks went away with today's FAQ.

Don't get me wrong, Telemon are great. But Galatus are even better vs DE. They are far better at killing infantry, they survive equally well and better in melee, and they're cheaper so you can get more of them spread across the board. Trying to kill raiders from range is a waste of time with pure custodes, you'll never be able to do it well enough to matter unless you do something suicidal like taking 3 tanks and 3 telemon, which will just cause you to lose the game for other reasons.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
stratigo wrote:

That's why you want the telemon by the by, it survives 6 to 10 dark lances best, and laughs at liquifiers in a way a galatus won't.


The math on this doesn't check out; point for point the Galatus is comparable at surviving every major DE ranged profile to the Telemon and better at surviving in melee. While also costing less points, so you are not so out-MSUed. 3 Galatus are cheaper and more resilient than 2 Telemon, in addition to giving you more bodies on the table and non-degrading profiles. The only time a Telemon is arguably better is if you have only a single one that can be targeted and you can shadowkeepers it to absorb an entire round of DE shooting. But that never happens in the real world, they'll just switch to a better target once you pop shadowkeepers for the first DL.

And that's even before DT liq wracks went away with today's FAQ.

Don't get me wrong, Telemon are great. But Galatus are even better vs DE. They are far better at killing infantry, they survive equally well and better in melee, and they're cheaper so you can get more of them spread across the board. Trying to kill raiders from range is a waste of time with pure custodes, you'll never be able to do it well enough to matter unless you do something suicidal like taking 3 tanks and 3 telemon, which will just cause you to lose the game for other reasons.


*Shrugs* There was a reason that the people beating dark eldar were taking telemons and not galatuses, and I trust their judgement. We'll see what rules adjustments do to this though.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Who was beating DE with pure Custodes, period? I mean random games sure, but at the top level competitively? Wasn't happening as far as I'm aware. It was just a question of whether you were goin to lose comprehensively or at least make a good game of it.

Though the dread-heavy lists you did see were mostly 2x Telemon 3x Galatus, typically souped with guard or maybe even sisters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/02 19:54:37


 
   
Made in de
Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos






Audustum wrote:
 nordsturmking wrote:
Sisters and Admech are released two weeks apart. Orks are next then Grey Knights and Thousand Sons which leaves 11 Codices to be announced. So worst case our codex is the last that would mean another 13 before the Custodes one comes out if they release one codex per month it would be another 14 month so October 2022.
But it is more likely that our codex is somewhere in the middle so 7 month January of 2022. Or late this year if GW keeps a 2 week release schedule which is unlikely because of corona and other systems like AoS

Codices with unknown date:

Adeptus Custodes
Astra Militarum
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Knights
Chaos Space Marines
Craftworlds
Genestealer Cults
Grey Knights (announced on May 29 )
Harlequins
Imperial Knights
T’au Empire
Thousand Sons (announced on May 29)
Tyranids


On the Topic of Tactics:
I had a game against DE with my Nids and got tabled on turn 5. His list was not even that competetive but when they have for example a 60 point model with 12 strong attacks there is not much you can do with Nids. I plan on bringing Custodes next what would you recommend agaisnt DE?


So I play Custodes and DE. Here's my recommendations for facing DE with the golden bananas:

1. You need anti-transport shooting and then anti-infantry shooting. Hurricane Bolter jetbikes are ideal for killing the contents of Raiders. To break the Raiders themselves, you'll likely want gun-Telemons or Caladius tanks. You can't rely on something like Venatarii or Terminators to do it because they need strat support and you're going to want to crack open 2-3 Raiders per-turn for the first two turns.

2. Do not risk fighting/charging them in melee if you can avoid it (spoiler: you won't be able to totally avoid it, but try). Archons and Incubi can both make you fight last, even if you Stooping Dive'd, and that is going to be very bad and very painful.

3. Save your Arcane Genetic Alchemy for when the Liquifiers are being spammed on you because it should overwrite their +1 to Wound (just like Transhuman does).

4. That said, in general, you want to try and board position the following matchups: Dreads vs. Liquifiers (the -1 damage also cancels out their boost), Sword + Board into Wyches (you'll be taking all their attacks on a 2+ unless they're Strife and use a strat or roll a 6 to wound) and Dreads into Incubi (I know, double duty for these guys). If you're using Terminators/Jetbikes try to keep them out of melee.

5. For stratagems, keep Emperor's Auspice for the Wyches/Bloodbrides (they use re-rolls the most) and Arcane Genetic Alchemy for the Incubi/Liquifiers (they benefit from bonus to wound, though only the former if Drazhar is around). It's also fair to Auspice Drazhar's target as he needs re-rolls quite a bit.

6. Kill Succubi with shooting. Do NOT enter combat with them. Mere mortals generally get wrecked fighting any combination of Tryptych Whip/Precision Blows/Competitive Edge/Dancer's Edge/Dark Lotus Toxin/Razorflail.

7. The name of the game will be just trying to hold objectives and score for 3 rounds. Do it for 3 and you probably can open a lead they can't overcome, only do it for 2 and they'll rip you apart.

8. Herd the Prey will almost certainly be taken against you. Have fast things so you can try and be in all table quarters. Remember, it's 2 points per table quarter you are not in from turns 2-5. So if you got tabled T4, they would score 8 points on it T5. You really need to hang onto these edges. Since you'll be trying to be in the quarters anyway, Engage will help you pick up points while doing so but it will also make you VERY feast or famine.

9. If you're fighting a Ssylyth/Urghul party build you're in good shape I think. We don't care about the tarpit. You're much more in danger from mass Dark Lance builds (most Druks have about 6-7 of them, but some get as high as 12-16 or even 20) or mass Wych builds (some guy just did great at a tournament with like 60 Wyches).

10. Eviscerating Fly-By is mostly a meme but if you DO see 20 Hellions stay away and shoot them ASAP.


Really nicely detailed advise, thank you i'll try to follow it. Thankfuly I have 2 Telemons and 3 Caladius. I learned the hard way that you should really avoid the succubi.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
Who was beating DE with pure Custodes, period? I mean random games sure, but at the top level competitively? Wasn't happening as far as I'm aware. It was just a question of whether you were goin to lose comprehensively or at least make a good game of it.

Though the dread-heavy lists you did see were mostly 2x Telemon 3x Galatus, typically souped with guard or maybe even sisters.


tripple telemon and a big unit of venetari supported with trajan boosting the dreads. It is one of the few drukhari killer lists that has actually gone up against drukhari and killed them.

   
 
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