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Obviously situational but it just struck me if you find your helbrute stuck in combat in your shooting phase you can use fire frenzy. Really useful if you survive a charge by your opponent as they will be expecting to fight first in your fight phase.
If you take the multi melta and heavy flamer on the fist that's some pretty nasty point blank shooting that could suprise an opponent...

So the Dreadclaw seems worth considering now.

Drop Pod Assault lets us finally get another good shot at a T1 charge. Bonus points for the Emperor's children that can set a charge roll die to 6.

EDIT: You cannot Warptime them out of the pod.

A Sorcerer + some Possessed or Berzerkers in a Dreadclaw is pretty fearsome.

Sorc + 9 Berzerkers (no upgrades) + Dreadclaw will run 358 points and the transport is no slouch in combat.

Alternatively, a Sorcerer + basic Chaos Marines w/ Chainswords and upgrades to taste + possibly a Lord or Aspring Champion in a Dreadclaw is worth considering. Once they go up to 2W, that's a fairly sticky threat that can be packaged neatly in a single Patrol. Bless them with Warptime and Delightful Agonies for a tarpit. My biggest concern would be the Sorcerer getting exposed.


Also RIP Inferno Predators. You were too hot for this world.

"Also please correct me if I'm wrong, but because the models inside are disembarking rather than coming in as reinforcements (assuming the rule gets FAQ'd to match the SM version of 9th ed Drop Pod Assault), we can Warptime them." - That's wrong, or at least if it's not currently (RAW) will be FAQ'd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
World eaters are huge beneficiaries of the new dreadclaw. Violent urgency and icons gives you mass 8" rerollable charges on the best CC unit in the game. 2 pods with 2x5 zerkers, 1x8 zerkers, an exalted champ and a chaos lord with violent urgency is terrifying. The size of the dreadclaw should make it pretty easy to benefit from the charge bonus... Until core changes arrive with a new codex, it also gets a crazy uptick of CC threat from the two HQs. That comes in at around 770pt and is a batallion...

Assuming a disembarkation FAQ, EC can drop twenty NMs in a Kharybdis, unleash furious riffs, and then throw the Kharybdis at the enemy's FACE

Throw in Daemon allies, and you can get a Fiend to force the victim unit to stay and take their punishment

I took some time this morning to prove myself wrong. Anything that comes in during the reinforcement step cannot make a normal move that turn so no Warptime (would be great if they explicitly confirm this in an FAQ).

I do think that Chosen will find their best home is with the Dreadclaw though. It's the best delivery system for their combi-weapons and 2W + Lightning Claws for 4 attacks when charging makes for a pretty nasty bomb.

I've been running chosen lately and my next list will be with 2x5 plasma chosen and 2x5 berzerks with a dreadclaw and the return of my leviathan! This release has actually been a huge upgrade for us. Previously unplayable options now slot in perfectly where I needed them.

What are people's thoughts on contemptors and leviathans now then?

I was planning a little overhaul of my dreadnought situation with 9th coming in and proving to be geared around midboard slugfests and no penalty to move and shoot heavy. Mixed use dreads seem far more viable than they were in 8th to the point i was toying with dusting off my monopose helbrute with fist and multimelta.

I was also thinking of magnetising my existing dual butcher contemptor so he could take a fist and picking up a second contemptor with multimelta and fist as that seemed quite a potent combo and i could share the weapons around between the two, even running double fist on occasion.

Obviously my plans are probably changing considering the nerf they have just received, however, the new points put a mm and fist contemptor at 155pts.

Comparing that to the helbrute with the same loadout you are paying 25pts (plus a cp) for S7, an extra wound and a 5++.

That suddenly doesn't seem so bad? I mean i appreciate that making comparisons with the uncompetitive helbrute isn't really proving anything but it does maybe show that GW have at least managed to bring some of the FW stuff more into line?

The leviathan I'm finding a little harder to make comparisons to where it sits now but the dual butcher cannon array i was running now sitting at 2/3s of the points it was means it's gonna be a lot easier to fit into lists here and there admittedly running at a lot lower effectiveness.

So do these guys still have some play? What do you think are likely to be the most effective loadouts going forward can i save them from the garbage pile by converting or picking up a couple of new arm options from FW?

I've been running contemptors and the update seems a little hateful on them considering I always want at least 2.
The cp investment really hurts plus loss of legion trait.

The leviathan otoh went from unplayable from my perspective to suddenly the best backfield camper we have access to. I'll be running dual storm cannons and volkite. I feel like its the missing piece I've been looking for since the price hike mostly invalidated them. Alternately I might consider a deredeo once we know more about it.

dominuschao wrote:
I've been running contemptors and the update seems a little hateful on them considering I always want at least 2.
The cp investment really hurts plus loss of legion trait.

The leviathan otoh went from unplayable from my perspective to suddenly the best backfield camper we have access to. I'll be running dual storm cannons and volkite. I feel like its the missing piece I've been looking for since the price hike mostly invalidated them. Alternately I might consider a deredeo once we know more about it.

I suspect the legion trait part will be temporary, possibly signalling that helbrutes will end up with a 'dreadnought' tag in order to standardise a bunch of stuff. Though it wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened to screw over the rebels.

Or it might be a push for GW trying to diversify the armies a bit. Having both imperials and chaos both running the same units probably bugged them, as it meant people could play both armies without giving them twice the money. So maybe they're pushing chaos towards decimators et al.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Assuming a disembarkation FAQ, EC can drop twenty NMs in a Kharybdis, unleash furious riffs, and then throw the Kharybdis at the enemy's FACE

Throw in Daemon allies, and you can get a Fiend to force the victim unit to stay and take their punishment

Is this a thing again? How much does a KAC now cost?

I was doing KAC drops at the start of 8th before they increased the points. Terribly fun, the magma cutters were devastating.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Assuming a disembarkation FAQ, EC can drop twenty NMs in a Kharybdis, unleash furious riffs, and then throw the Kharybdis at the enemy's FACE

Throw in Daemon allies, and you can get a Fiend to force the victim unit to stay and take their punishment

Is this a thing again? How much does a KAC now cost?

I was doing KAC drops at the start of 8th before they increased the points. Terribly fun, the magma cutters were devastating.

400 PPM. It's a LOW now too, so add 3CP on to that for the SHAD.

otoh, our fellblades now are big APC with transport capacities, can we, abuse that somehow with IW or our HQ?

Obvious choices seem DA's and Sorcerers, not to say warpsmith?

A SHAD costs 3CP. A full detachment of 3-5 costs 6. That’s more efficient bang for your buck, and also threat overload.

I’m sad that I can’t Warptime my KAC into my opponent’s FACE and set fire to half their army before going full Fist Of Khorne on something, but being able to drop three in on the first turn, hit with fifteen frag or krak, and probably get one into CC seems very interesting

I’m waiting to see what auras become Core-locked before putting anything into the shopping list or hobby queue, but there’s some hilarious stuff to be done with charge manipulation and fall back denial right there


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What do we think about the various FW Land Raiders, now?

All:
+ can now shoot in melee
+ can now outflank, if you’re shy and made of CP

Proteus:
+ replacing twin heavy bolters with MM or twin heavy Flamer is still great Warptime material
+ can gain 5++(!) if not trading 4 capacity for 12” reserves denial
+ 3 power cheaper is less than our (and loyalist!) Codex LR and suggests decent points reduction
/ havoc Launcher replaced with one-Shot HK missile
- pay 1CP
- lost Infernal Hunger
- combi-weapon can’t be a non-bolter

Achilles:
+ gimmicky Soulburner traded for meaty weapon that can fire as anti-horde artillery or melee-useable AT
+ either SIXTEEN D2, MW-generating shots, or EIGHT MM shots
+ 2 power cheaper suggests points reduction
+ native 5++
/ havoc Launcher replaced with one-Shot HK Missile
- lost Infernal Hunger
- combi-weapon can’t be a non-bolter
- lost 3W

Spartan:
+ laser destroyers have gone from garbage to viable, maybe superior alternative to quad lascannons
+ trading trade heavy bolters for twin heavy Flamer remains brilliant Warptime candidate
+ 1 power cheaper suggests modest points reduction
/ can take any Combi-weapon
/ havoc Launcher replaced with one-Shot HK missile
/ Crushing tracks is broadly an upgrade from infernal hunger, starts out with much more output but degrades much wors
- pay 1CP PLUS super heavy tax

The achiles looks really interesting. Think it's 320pts now, and it isn't relic so no -1cp tax.
That's not a lot more expensive than the regular landraider and the 12 24" S8 shots seem so much more appropriate for a heavy transport than 4 lascannons.
The 5++ makes it difficult to shift if you park it on an objective and sit a unit of 5 marines in it so even if it's destroyed you spill out obsec...

A Dreadclaw can also fit 3 Obliterators + 1 MoP.

It mitigates the issue of their short range/having to come in on turn 2. The MoP provides rerolls to hit, wound, and determine weapon stats.

They also are no slouches in melee at S6 if you absolutely had to.

525 points + 3 CP for VotLW and Cacophany.
The Dreadclaw can also go off and stab whatever it wants.

Abaddon303 wrote:
The achiles looks really interesting. Think it's 320pts now, and it isn't relic so no -1cp tax.
That's not a lot more expensive than the regular landraider and the 12 24" S8 shots seem so much more appropriate for a heavy transport than 4 lascannons.
The 5++ makes it difficult to shift if you park it on an objective and sit a unit of 5 marines in it so even if it's destroyed you spill out obsec...

Oh wow, I missed the native 5++ and lack of martial legacy tax, assuming no errata that is sick

Niiru wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
I've been running contemptors and the update seems a little hateful on them considering I always want at least 2.
The cp investment really hurts plus loss of legion trait.

The leviathan otoh went from unplayable from my perspective to suddenly the best backfield camper we have access to. I'll be running dual storm cannons and volkite. I feel like its the missing piece I've been looking for since the price hike mostly invalidated them. Alternately I might consider a deredeo once we know more about it.

I suspect the legion trait part will be temporary, possibly signalling that helbrutes will end up with a 'dreadnought' tag in order to standardise a bunch of stuff. Though it wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened to screw over the rebels.

Or it might be a push for GW trying to diversify the armies a bit. Having both imperials and chaos both running the same units probably bugged them, as it meant people could play both armies without giving them twice the money. So maybe they're pushing chaos towards decimators et al.

I hope so and it makes sense. Also I retract my earlier statement now that I've seen full datasheets. The leviathan is just bad at backfield fire support. Time to bust out the deredeo again.

Is five model unit chaos space marines viable?

Depends on what you want them to do. They wont kill a anything and die to almost anything. They are a small unit that is easy to hide that can hold objectives for fairly cheap.

 lindsay40k wrote:
A SHAD costs 3CP. A full detachment of 3-5 costs 6. That’s more efficient bang for your buck, and also threat overload.

I’m sad that I can’t Warptime my KAC into my opponent’s FACE and set fire to half their army before going full Fist Of Khorne on something, but being able to drop three in on the first turn, hit with fifteen frag or krak, and probably get one into CC seems very interesting

I’m waiting to see what auras become Core-locked before putting anything into the shopping list or hobby queue, but there’s some hilarious stuff to be done with charge manipulation and fall back denial right there

At first glance, 400pts and 3CP sounds like too high a price.

Then again, I haven't played 9th and don't have the new Forgeworld book. So maybe there's something I don't know. There are things you can do with the KAC that are unique and might be better suited to 9th.

At the start of 8th, I used one in maybe 20 games. The KAC would DS alongside a Terminator Sorcerer, the occupants would disembark, then the KAC would charge.

It was very good at:

- Multicharging lines of Razorbacks / denying shooting. The base size allowed it to engage with a lot of targets at the same time and the funny shape of the model created a lot of issues with placement that worked to my advantage.

- Wrecking monsters and vehicles. The melta cutters were S16 and hit monsters / vehicles on 2+ with 2D6 damage. I was regularly taking out Carnifexes, Leman Russes, etc right in the middle of enemy lines.

- Tanking damage. The KAC is a massive distraction and opponents would pour a lot of shots into it. Everything else in my army was better for it being on the table.

For 9th, my guess is the ideal use would be dropping off units to contest objectives then becoming a dedicated tank hunter. A valid tactic could be dropping behind a building for cover and moving out to assault on turn 3. The effective threat range for movement plus charge is 24".

Is Ghorisvex’s Teeth still legal?

Was it gone when vigilus went or when the chainswords changed?

BillyN831 wrote:
Is five model unit chaos space marines viable?

I run my CSM as 5-man with 2 meltas and just advance them up the board. Theyre cheap enough that i don't mind losing them and they still pack enough punch to do somehting,

Mynameisdave65 wrote:
Is Ghorisvex’s Teeth still legal?

Was it gone when vigilus went or when the chainswords changed?

Its still legal, but the chainlord doesnt work as well as it did in 8th, because of the +/-1 cap to hit/wound.

Thank you.

BillyN831 wrote:
Is five model unit chaos space marines viable?

Not now. Once we get 2 wounds each, maybe.

I mean, they'll never be Heavy Intercessors, but ultimately squads with 2 wounds will have a lot going for them.

Dont forget their point cost will increase as well. Probably to 17. That second wound is not free.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BillyN831 wrote:
Is five model unit chaos space marines viable?

Not now. Once we get 2 wounds each, maybe.

I mean, they'll never be Heavy Intercessors, but ultimately squads with 2 wounds will have a lot going for them.

I commend your diligence in never missing an opportunity to use that old chestnut

I tried out an Alpha Legion +Despoiler list the other day against a Primaris heavy Dark Angels player. Called at the middle of 3 because he had lost so many points that it was starting to get sad.

Disco Lord of Khorne with Talisman
DP Slaanesh, Wings, Warptime
Terminator Sorcerer of Slaanesh Presience and Delightful Agonies

5 CSM
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists

3 Obliterators
3 Obliterators
Venomcrawler

So I got 1st turn. One squad of Obliterators started on the board, other deep strike. The Disco Lord, Venomcrawler and DP moved up a flank, DP cast Warptime on the Disco Lord for a first turn charge. Contemptor died before he swung. The Obliterators that started on the board did the 9 inch movement strat before the game started. They moved out and with the help of Presience annihilated an Outrider squad and with the help of the Despoiler almost killed another Outrider squad.

It was my 1st time using the Knight or the Disco Lord and they are now auto includes in every list I will ever make.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I tried out an Alpha Legion +Despoiler list the other day against a Primaris heavy Dark Angels player. Called at the middle of 3 because he had lost so many points that it was starting to get sad.

Disco Lord of Khorne with Talisman
DP Slaanesh, Wings, Warptime
Terminator Sorcerer of Slaanesh Presience and Delightful Agonies

5 CSM
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists

3 Obliterators
3 Obliterators
Venomcrawler

So I got 1st turn. One squad of Obliterators started on the board, other deep strike. The Disco Lord, Venomcrawler and DP moved up a flank, DP cast Warptime on the Disco Lord for a first turn charge. Contemptor died before he swung. The Obliterators that started on the board did the 9 inch movement strat before the game started. They moved out and with the help of Presience annihilated an Outrider squad and with the help of the Despoiler almost killed another Outrider squad.

It was my 1st time using the Knight or the Disco Lord and they are now auto includes in every list I will ever make.

Would you think that a Master of Possesions may be better for helping with your stuff? You have an awful lot of legion demons after all it seems.

If Obliterators take the 9 inch move pregame and then move forward it's going to be difficult for a Master of Possessions powers to reach range wise.