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I'm pretty psyched.

25 Guards men for 110 points. I like it. So the strength of the guard is going to be fielding more wounds than your opponent has shots in the game.


Edit: Swapped my values.

i'm still incredulous about the ogryn rumors as they seem too good to be true. i stopped fielding my ogryns years before i took a break from 40k because they just weren't worth it. with T5, they're worth it for a cheaper cost. add in either FNP or armor 4+, and you'll see me fielding them. add in both and you'll always see me fielding them.

as for the cadian RR, i hope they're not on horses but i think they will be as the previous 3 versions of RR were. also, if they visually changed them to bikes they'd have to significantly change the rules which we haven't heard anything about. the gw rules cater to the lowest common demoninator *read: the dumbest person in your gaming group* so counting them as horse cavalry while visually mounting them on bikes probably wouldn't happen. i'll still convert mine to bikers though.

lifeafter wrote:I'm pretty psyched.

110 Guards men for 25 points. I like it. So the strength of the guard is going to be fielding more wounds than your opponent has shots in the game.

Other way around, 25 Guardsmen for 110pts.

Mahu wrote:If they remain 40 points a piece, you can easily fit 5 for 200 points. Now you are talking about 15 wounds on 5 models that have a very short list on what can insta kill them.

Just a nitpick, but Ogryns can't remain at 40pts per head, because they're only 25 right now...

Honk if you like the new tanks!

alarmingrick wrote:i'm loving just about all i'm hearing.
not to sound like too much of a wet blanket,
but do you have any idea why everyone is
taking what Mkoll is saying as so reliable?

There's a few folks over on Boot Camp that apparently know who he is and can vouch for him being a GW insider.

ArbitorIan wrote:So what do we think of the Chimera box including three different vehicle variants? I can only really see it including

Hellhound/Salamander Scout/Salamander Command

I can't really see the Chimera box including parts for a Basilisk/Medusa/Griffon...

My guess is that the Chimera box will include:

- Hellhound
- Chimera w/ Multilaser Turret
- Chimera w/ Autocannon Turret
- Chimera w/ Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter Turret
- Chimera w/ Heavy Flamer Turret
- Salamander (which could be armed either w/ Autocannon or Heavy Flamer as that's the main physical difference between the Scout and Command variants)

From what Mkoll's saying, the Basilisk, Medusa, and Griffon will all be in a separate "Artillery" box.

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:ahem ihave to say this.....

DID SOMEONE SAY ARBITES???

I wouldn't get too excited about this. I'm a recovering Arbites player myself, so I'm as excited as the next Arbites player about the possibility of new models, but I don't expect GW to expand on these guys other than the footnote of a rules that they have in the Witch Hunters codex.

The Leman Russ is based on a WWI tank design, which had individual gunners. The Predator is based on a more modern light armored vehicle, with a signficantly smaller main gun and presumably smaller crew (iirc, it's 2 - driver and commander/gunner). I have no problem with the Leman Russ having a special "Sponson gunners" rule that lets its sponsons fire with the main gun (and hopefully, at separate targets). It would help display the differences between the vehicles - big heavy, multi-crew main tank vs. light, small-crew armored vehicle.

And I'd have to do some search-fu, but I was mocked after Fifth Edition when, in the wake of all these IG players wanting to rip off their sponsons, I said something to the effect of, "IG is right around the corner, who knows what GW will do. Maybe Leman Russes can fire their sponsons in addition to the main gun because they have extra crew."

I'm thinking that the ability to fire sponsons as defensive weapons is going to be a limited ability - maybe like either a 0-1 type thing or limited to only a single type of Leman Russ (maybe like on Exterminators). But considering that Demolishers can have meltas and plasma cannons as sponsons, I feel I can pretty safely assume that firing those ones as defensive weapons will be a no go.

Is this the first we've heard about an Inquisitor Supplement? Am I the only one getting geekwood over this?

Again, don't get too excited over this - I think this is probably just a reference to the releases associated with Planetfall.

Now, what particularly amuses me is that I just went to Boot Camp to see if there were any more rumors from Mkoll and found that my list (which I had gleaned from Mkoll's comments) had been copied and pasted from Warseer and reposted to Boot Camp as if it were "news".

I've been on Boot Camp a while, Mkoll is one of those in the know kinda guys. Back when there were all those Apocalypse rumors starting he was spot on with all the baneblade and other guard stuff. I dunno if he works with GW but he's definitely got reliable sources.

Anyway for the sponsons firing I could see it being more like heavy bolters or heavy flamers can fire, but not something more powerful like plasma cannons. I guess we will have to wait and see

LunaHound wrote:Are there any info on the 3rd chimera variant
Melta plasma?

Thanks for re-posting that, btw, LunaHound - I'd been looking for that picture lately.

lifeafter wrote:I'm pretty psyched.

25 Guards men for 110 points. I like it. So the strength of the guard is going to be fielding more wounds than your opponent has shots in the game.

Oh yeah, I was thinking about that last night. So, we have the number 25 men for 110 points and 10 men for 40. That means your 5-man command squad is 30 points. So, for a full 5-squad platoon, you're looking at 230 points. 55 men for 230 points. Let's say you fill out your Troops FOC slots with that. That's 330 men for only 1380 points. That's pretty terrifying if you ask me. Particularly from a painting standpoint!

Yeah but how much would that many men cost? those 25 men = $69 .. i'm too lazy to do the rest of the math

So I was just thinkin.. if you can attach tanks to platoons, does that mean tanks will count as troops for taking objectives?

Necros wrote:Yeah but how much would that many men cost? those 25 men = $69 .. i'm too lazy to do the rest of the math

So I was just thinkin.. if you can attach tanks to platoons, does that mean tanks will count as troops for taking objectives?

Yes, they'd count as Troops. But only non-vehicle Troops count as scoring.

Ogryns with FNP and toughness 5 will not be instakilled by nobs, who are str 9 on the charge. A warboss will IK them though, as will Dreds, Lysander, Wraithlords, etc.

The Ogryns will be very cool and will crush low save low toughness models, but will still lose combats due to an inability to put out armor ignoring wounds against high save mid to high toughness models (unless we don't have the whole story yet).

They are now str6 in close combat with 2 attacks each and the bone head has 3.

And they are not 40 points as someone had said, they are 25 points.

That means for 135 pts, you get a seriously tough unit. 15 toughness 5 wounds with FNP and a 4+, that is pretty fantastic! If they give the bone head an option for a power weapon or power bayonet on this ripper gun (like in DoW), that is all they need. On the charge you would get 4 str 6 power weapon attacks at WS4 In3, not overpowering at all. Plus the 12 st6 regular attacks from the other guys and you have a very good assault unit. It would hit like a squad of Grey Knights in power armor, only at In3.

That would give them the ability to fight any units in HtH, which is what they were meant to be.

Without the power weapon option, they could easily get run down in combat by anything with a powerfist as they are only Ld9 with a bonehead. If the enemy has a high save, they will not put out as many wounds. They need at least one model to be able to ignore armor saves.

Also, if you can attach a commisar to them to make them fearless, now you have a serious tarpit unit.

I love ogryns and can't wait to see the actual rules, if they look good I will field a squad every game.

As for the rest of the rules, its looking great. I love IG, no question my favorite army to play and this is looking like we will have some serious firepower coming in. Last edition the only way to win games was to go MSU drop army. It was really effective but with the new kill point rules the only way to win is to wipe your enemy off the table.

As to the kill points issue, I have read and been told that the IG will give up 2 kill points per platoon, your opponant getting 1 for killing half, and the other for wiping it out, which gives guard the ability to play KP denial and makes up for the blatant hose job we get now.

Necros wrote:Yeah but how much would that many men cost? those 25 men = $69 .. i'm too lazy to do the rest of the math

So I was just thinkin.. if you can attach tanks to platoons, does that mean tanks will count as troops for taking objectives?

I wish I was paying $69 for 25 men; I play Steel Legion.

Ouch.

Necros wrote:Yeah but how much would that many men cost? those 25 men = $69 .. i'm too lazy to do the rest of the math

I'll do it for you - $910.80. For Janthkin's Steel Legion (let's see - assuming each command squad is an officer and 4 special weapon troops...carry the 1...) - ~$1,138. And yeah, that's only 1,380 points...huh. For Janthkin, it's 82 cents a point...

I wonder if the Commisar will carry the power weapon for the Ogryns? I could see that if priests or commisars were available to attach to them, the Bone 'ead would not get a power weapon, but the priest or commisar could get a fist or eviscerator or something.
Alternately, I could see the Bone 'ead getting a rending upgrade for 5 points like some daemon units.

Yea, seriously, where is HBMC? Did he get himself banned or something? Is there a "Casualty List" of people who got themselves perma-banned somewhere?

Wehrkind wrote:Yea, seriously, where is HBMC? Did he get himself banned or something? Is there a "Casualty List" of people who got themselves perma-banned somewhere?

Perhaps he's saving his 5,000th post for something truly breath-taking...

That said, his last post was on January 15th.

He must be dead. There's no other logical explanation.

And, in honor of Fanboys coming out today, I say 5 people go on a road trip down under to go and find him.

Scottywan82 wrote:He must be dead. There's no other logical explanation.

And, in honor of Fanboys coming out today, I say 5 people go on a road trip down under to go and find him.

According to Frazzled, there's been no ban or suspension, so he's probably on vacation and will laugh when he gets back at all the attention over him being gone.

I expect we'll know when he's back because all the 40K Discussion and most of the General Discussion will read H.B.M.C. as the latest posts. At the same time.

Yeah, that is true, if the commisar or the priest are still able to attach to the squad and can take a fist/eviscerator but are not IC's, then that works well.

We will have to wait and see, but I am really excited for what is to come.

George Spiggott wrote:If that is all the changes they have made to Ogryns then they have not fixed Ogryns they have merely made them harder to kill.

wisdom.

Agamemnon2 wrote:For what it's worth, I don't believe Ogryns will stay at 3 wounds each, or that Ripper guns will remain unmodified. We still don't have the full picture, I feel.

Agreed.


Just like George said. You give them T5, FNP and a 4+ save, and they don't get any leadership based ability or CC weapons, and they are just as trashed in a CC as before. I think people are forgetting just how devastating the CC units are in 5th edition. We are talking about bloodcrushers, nob bikers, and assault terminators here.

And please don't counter with 'you will be softening these units up with shooting'. I'll certainly have less shooting if I spent 250 points on a unit with limited range and shooting strength. I'd rather invest that 250 into more shooting, when you play a shooty army, tarpitting with CC just gives your opponent a safe zone to plug their units in until you break. Completely protected from shooting. For them even to be effective as a tar pit, they'd need leadership 9 stubborn or leadership 8 stubborn with the ability to re-roll off of a flag.

My preference is to keep them susceptible to morale, but increase the output of the ripper gun significantly. This way, I could spend 750 on 30 ogryns... but I'm still a shooty army, not a sub-par CC pretender. Since GW has decided not to euthanize rough riders, they can be your "hard hitting" CC unit. If ogryn don't bypass armor (I don't think they should) then there are going to be too many units out there that marginalize them.



As to the other rumors... i am happy and excited. And i'm confident that ogryn will be fine... as Agememnon said... we just don't have the full picture.

Shep wrote:As to the other rumors... i am happy and excited. And i'm confident that ogryn will be fine... as Agememnon said... we just don't have the full picture.

I don't want it misconstrued that I am in any way optimistic about the upcoming Codex, or the new Ogryns in specific. I believe the full picture will be a dismal failure, just like all the previous iterations.

well at least you stay positive, agamemnon!

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Shep wrote:As to the other rumors... i am happy and excited. And i'm confident that ogryn will be fine... as Agememnon said... we just don't have the full picture.

I don't want it misconstrued that I am in any way optimistic about the upcoming Codex, or the new Ogryns in specific. I believe the full picture will be a dismal failure, just like all the previous iterations.

Reecius wrote:well at least you stay positive, agamemnon!

Haha It must be very difficult to remain that curmudgeonly

Why would anybody want shooty Ogryns?

If I want shooty models, I'll take gun Troops.

I would take Ogryns because they *don't* shoot well, but instead fight well.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why would anybody want shooty Ogryns?

If I want shooty models, I'll take gun Troops.

I would take Ogryns because they *don't* shoot well, but instead fight well.

2 sustained fire dice per model. Auto-hit inside 6 inches.

Ogryn wonderful knife-fight-range fire support in second edition; it was the third edition codex that made their shooting inferior (and introduced the silly mandatory Ogryn Close Combat weapons).

Shep wrote:Haha It must be very difficult to remain that curmudgeonly

Hindsight will vindicate me every single time.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why would anybody want shooty Ogryns?

If I want shooty models, I'll take gun Troops.

I would take Ogryns because they *don't* shoot well, but instead fight well.

I would want them because they would be more effective than troops. They are elites.

Troops aren't good for anything but light damage and holding objectives.

Why would someone play IG and then want a dedicated CC unit. Better armies out there for that.

Janthkin wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why would anybody want shooty Ogryns?

If I want shooty models, I'll take gun Troops.

I would take Ogryns because they *don't* shoot well, but instead fight well.

2 sustained fire dice per model. Auto-hit inside 6 inches.

Ogryn wonderful knife-fight-range fire support in second edition; it was the third edition codex that made their shooting inferior (and introduced the silly mandatory Ogryn Close Combat weapons).

Thats exactly what I'm talking about Janthkin... thanks. Close range nasty shooting, with marked increase in survivability from return fire.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Shep wrote:Haha It must be very difficult to remain that curmudgeonly

Hindsight will vindicate me every single time.

We shall see. And I may feel the need to cart out some of these posts if and when you are proven wrong.

From chaos space marines to today, GW has successfully made competitive codexes, their last misstep was dark angels, which was quite a while ago. They are 4 for 4 since then. But feel free to bet against it. I wouldn't bank on ogryns being top tier, but certainly look for the IG book as a whole to be a force.

I want the dedicated CC unit to bring a little balance to the Force.

Thanks for the positive outlook Shep, I too feel the same way. I have even come around on Darkangels, at first I was loathe to even touch the dex, but now I see you can make a tough list out of doublewing, although it requires a lot of skill. And the models look great.

As for the IG, they were competetive last edition, and it sounds like they will be more so now, I am stoked and choose to remain positive.

And Janthkin, thanks for reminding us of the good old days! Ah yes, the auto hitting ripper gun was rad. But, I will take 5th ed rules over 2nd ed any day.

so, my hardened vetran squads that i love so are still counted as elites or are they removed entirely? also thank the emporor they downed the costs for imperial guard.(bout' time!)