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DE are my first real army when 90% of the other players were JUST ANOTHER MARINE. Do you know how boring tournament play is? I am all for different armies and they all need support from GW or else they dont sell. I do admit the current DE codex can still hang tough but there are plenty other armies that need a new codex real bad (Tau, Necrons).

Phil Kelly is writing the codex? Shocking! It's almost like he said himself he was writing it at LAST YEAR'S LA GAMESDAY seminar.

And could Jes Goodwin be working on the new miniatures? Perhaps because he said himself he was at LAST YEAR'S LA GAMESDAY seminar and AGAIN on the Games Workshop podcast.

And dont forget Phil Kelly at adepticon last year as well. I think the time schedule is off but that is about it.

DE were my second army back in the 1k days of play and I always had fun with them. They take a lot of thought to build and play as they do tend to be fragile and you cant play them like marines. One mistake can finish you off. I like that challenge. I am really looking forward to new rules and models.

Dear Games Workshop,

Please make Dark Eldar fast and fragile and deadly. I love the idea that one mistake will end the game.

Then, following the track record of "One and done" armies, six months after they hit the shelves, people will be getting rid of their new DE armies for cheap.

I'm a little sad. I was all set to post the Jess Goodwin jetbike prototype and then I was one-upped by the Haemmy greens. And then mod intervention.

I'm very excited about the dark eldar news, although this sort of thing has been common knowledge for quite some time if you troll the forums for all the rumor threads.

Either harry or brimstone stated that following guard, would be wolves and then dark eldar. Amongst other snippets would be a bunch of designers at various GWS events stating "it's time for them to get some love" "I've been working on the plastics for about a year now and I'm 50% done" "DE will not be dropped" and blah blah. The inclusion in the rule book, now planet strike and people in the know stating they have seen models all points to the work being fairly advanced at this point.

I don't see how people can still deny the existence of a new codex looming in the future, in the face of all this evidence, often times coming from the mouths of head designers?

I own the DE Codex, and a decent range of DE models. I've been thinking it would be fun to do an army of them someday, but it's unfair to accuse KK of trolling. After all, he's right: DE were widely rejected by the 40k community.

At the same time that GW discontinued the Squats ("We don't want to be Fantasy in space!") GW released a new army that (fluffwise) was even more "Fantasy in space!" than the Squats. (Living in the Webway, a giant series of strange warp-tunnels, is about as close as you can get to being "subterranean.") It was a poorly conceived fluff background for a poorly designed army that had a poor model range. Some of you seem to see that as a reason GW needs to go back and do it right. But it can also be seen as a reason GW should give up on the idea and move on.

I think the fact that my DE Army has always been envisioned as a "joke army" based on the 1980 Flash Gordon movie instead of a "serious" army says a lot about the current state of Dark Eldar.

Defiler wrote:Either harry or brimstone stated that following guard, would be wolves and then dark eldar. Amongst other snippets would be a bunch of designers at various GWS events stating "it's time for them to get some love" "I've been working on the plastics for about a year now and I'm 50% done" "DE will not be dropped" and blah blah. The inclusion in the rule book, now planet strike and people in the know stating they have seen models all points to the work being fairly advanced at this point.

I don't see how people can still deny the existence of a new codex looming in the future, in the face of all this evidence, often times coming from the mouths of head designers?

While lots of sources have said DE are being worked on (and I believe them), Harry and Brim said something else is coming after SW. And the best guess right now is that it's Tyranids. I'd guess DE in late 2010, but that's only a guess on my part...

Dark Eldar worship Khaine now, that's weird. More Forgeworld is always a good thing.

tll be nice to see the DE make a comeback simply for variety.
the more races out there the better imo...

Am I totally off base in thinking that the rejecgtion of DE wasn't that wide or immediate? I saw more DE than Orks at pretty much all times in 3rd and 4th until the new Ork book, and I think many competitive gamers did play DE for a while.

While I agree with Kid Kyoto's deeper point (that space Dark Elves are silly when there are much more interesting options available), I think there are mitigating factors that explain why the community didn't take DE as thoroughly (poor models, limited tactical options, and the endless barrage of 3rd edition codices, each more broken than the last).

So, in essence, I think that the rejection was milder than many people think, and for reasons that go beyond the sheer concept of Space Drow.

@Polonius:

DE didn't take off like GW wanted, that's for sure. Not like, say, Tau, which have effectively replaced them as the "new" S3 T3 army. Or WFB Ogres. So if you consider the slower than usual / slower than expected uptake a "rejection", then I think it was pretty widespread. Which is why they didn't get more than a token update.

Model-wise, DE weren't so terrible when you consider they were sculpted at the end of 2E for the initial 3E release. They have aged poorly, but that's 10+ years for you. Most models from that timeframe have since been replaced.

Tactically, DE are still a solid, if one-dimensional player. But most other Codices have only one decent build. And with IG, GW is only cementing the mono-build design approach. Codex releases are tied to sales, and GW decided to cut their losses by placing DE in limbo for perpetuity.

Finally, DE aren't Drow - they're spiky Eldar / Dark Elves in space.

And that's the heart of the problem. The concept didn't take off, so it's a failure. But with a printed Codex, GW doesn't want to formally Squat them.

Just wait JHDD. I bet that the Dark Eldar will take off like the Wood Elves did when they were finally released with good models (btw, the old Wood Elf army book was good too, but no one played them cause the models sucked).

And when that happens, I'll make sure I have that plate of delicious crow ready for you.

Everybody likes Wood Elves (they are all so Tolkien). Not everybody liked their playstyle. Not everybody liked Dark Eldar, very few liked their playstyle.

The First Book of the Astronomicon featured Eldar Pirates, including background, pics, and an army list. The Iyaden vs. Tyranid story also featured Eldar Pirates, which saved the Craftworld from Tyranids. So, when GW decides to release Eldar Pirates in the 40Kv3 starter box, waaay back before pirates were cool again, before Pirates of the Caribbean, they choose to ignore the previous cool fluff, and make these S&M pirates with a condensed, confusing, conflicting background. That’s a clear example of missing the marketing trend.

Gobbla wrote:The First Book of the Astronomicon featured Eldar Pirates, including background, pics, and an army list. The Iyaden vs. Tyranid story also featured Eldar Pirates, which saved the Craftworld from Tyranids. So, when GW decides to release Eldar Pirates in the 40Kv3 starter box, waaay back before pirates were cool again, before Pirates of the Caribbean, they choose to ignore the previous cool fluff, and make these S&M pirates with a condensed, confusing, conflicting background. That’s a clear example of missing the marketing trend.

Actually, you have it backwards. No one thought pre-release that DE would be "just pirates." Everyone assumed they'd be Slaaneshi/Chaos Eldar. I'm not saying they should be. But that was the assumption among the customer base, from what I remember about the discussions on the forums/mailing lists of the day. What we got wasn't exactly Slaaneshi Eldar nor exactly pirates, and that's where DE got muddled conceptually.

It's also important to note that GW has always drawn a distinction between Eldar Pirates (like Yriel) and DE. All DE are Eldar pirates, but not all Eldar pirates are DE.

Touche, usernamesareannoying. Touche.

Iorek wrote:Touche, usernamesareannoying. Touche.

I think DE with a decent codex (both from having viable builds and good fluff) and good (mostly plastic) minis will sell very well.

I also think if they'd do plastic SoB that they'll fly off the shelves as well (nuns with guns!).

I don't think how popular the spiky space elves were before has any relation to how popular they'll be this time. We've already covered that they're going to kick butt this time around, so what does it matter that they sucked before? Everyone's going to want to try them regardless because they're going to have a superb miniature range. And plus, with an army getting a total redo, you know you won't be able to walk into a GW store without being pinned to a table and having dark eldar shoved down your throat. Can you imagine the redshirts when this comes out? They're probably going to have fangasms all over the entire store.

I do that sometimes. I'm told they have to chisel it off with a putty knife.

Ozymandias wrote:Just wait JHDD. I bet that the Dark Eldar will take off like the Wood Elves did when they were finally released with good models (btw, the old Wood Elf army book was good too, but no one played them cause the models sucked).

I'll make sure I have that plate of delicious crow ready for you.

First off, the old WE models weren't "bad" for their age by any fair comparison. Second, that WE Dragon *still* rocks. I like it far better than any of the comparable 5E dragons. It is a *very* nice sculpt!

Finally, I've already set the DE not having a Codex by 10/10/10. If the DE get a Phil Kelly Codex with Jes Goodwin minis by then, I'm more than happy to admit my error. But keep in mind that I've said there won't be a DE Codex for over a year, and I have yet to be proven wrong, despite various rumor threads claiming the contrary...

That is why I ask for someone to show something new and real. Surely, if DE actually are being redone for real, there will be some indication.

Yeah, cause the author of the book and the sculptor of the minis saying so isn't an indication...

The Wood Elf Dragon was nice but the crappy Archer plastics were some of the worst ever.

gorgon wrote:

Gobbla wrote:The First Book of the Astronomicon featured Eldar Pirates, including background, pics, and an army list. The Iyaden vs. Tyranid story also featured Eldar Pirates, which saved the Craftworld from Tyranids. So, when GW decides to release Eldar Pirates in the 40Kv3 starter box, waaay back before pirates were cool again, before Pirates of the Caribbean, they choose to ignore the previous cool fluff, and make these S&M pirates with a condensed, confusing, conflicting background. That’s a clear example of missing the marketing trend.

Actually, you have it backwards. No one thought pre-release that DE would be "just pirates." Everyone assumed they'd be Slaaneshi/Chaos Eldar. I'm not saying they should be. But that was the assumption among the customer base, from what I remember about the discussions on the forums/mailing lists of the day. What we got wasn't exactly Slaaneshi Eldar nor exactly pirates, and that's where DE got muddled conceptually.

It's also important to note that GW has always drawn a distinction between Eldar Pirates (like Yriel) and DE. All DE are Eldar pirates, but not all Eldar pirates are DE.

I stand by my timeline, but you're probably right. I guess I wanted them to be pirates like Yriel's. I never warmed up to Slaaneshi Eldar, there were so many Eldar armies painted up to be Slaaneshi.

dark eldar are awesome! I was thinking of making an army out of heavily converted dark elves to make up for the crap models, but it is good to see they are already being worked on by GW. I think I will wait before I make a DE army.

Ozymandias wrote:Yeah, cause the author of the book and the sculptor of the minis saying so isn't an indication...

Yeah, and GW has said they've been "working on" on DE for ages, with nothing to show for it...

That's because Goodwin works slowly, because if the studio tried to rush him it would come out gaky, and they know that.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:Yeah, cause the author of the book and the sculptor of the minis saying so isn't an indication...

Yeah, and GW has said they've been "working on" on DE for ages, with nothing to show for it...

I was under the impression that they had done a lot of development work for DE at some point and eventually just scrapped it all after the project just sort of panned out and overran it's constraints and went on to Tyranids and Tau. Has anyone else heard this?

thedarkside69 wrote:dark eldar are awesome! I was thinking of making an army out of heavily converted dark elves to make up for the crap models, but it is good to see they are already being worked on by GW. I think I will wait before I make a DE army.

See, that is what kind of clinches DE as a poor choice for a new codex: Very rarely (if ever) does one see a "Counts-As DE" army. I am given to understand the codex is pretty good and it is merely the poor models holding back the concept. Now, I will agree that crap models that are hard to get limits an army's desirability, and conversely awesome models models increase it, but look at LatD for comparison. The army does NOT have rules, so another codex, often IG or orks, needs to be used, and the army does not have models, so everything has to be scratch built. Yet you see piles of Lost and the Damned blogs, and near zero Dark Eldar.

That tells me that people just are not excited about the fluff of DE. Not nearly so much as Lost and the Damned at any rate. Were I in charge of deciding which Codex is next, that sort of information would push me away from DE unless I was willing to have them completely rewritten. Hopefully, that is what happens, both that I am put in charge of determinining Codex release schedules, and they rewrite DE something fierce.

Vaktathi wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:Yeah, cause the author of the book and the sculptor of the minis saying so isn't an indication...

Yeah, and GW has said they've been "working on" on DE for ages, with nothing to show for it...

I was under the impression that they had done a lot of development work for DE at some point and eventually just scrapped it all after the project just sort of panned out and overran it's constraints and went on to Tyranids and Tau. Has anyone else heard this?

That was an internet rumor from the latter part of 2008. Since that rumor popped up, GW released a pod-cast (I believe in January or so) where the current sculptor of the new DE line said he was roughly halfway through with the sculpts.

There's a thread regarding that podcast somewhere in the archives on this forum, I believe.

Getting a bit off-topic now, but IMO the problem isn't the specific components of their background but how they're structured. You can usually sum up the best concepts in a few words, and DE are pretty far from that. What's their motivation? Piracy isn't a motivation, it's an action taken because of some motivation. And obviously they're different than run-of-the-mill Eldar pirates. But why? "They're evil" is a motivation of sorts, but a thin one. And "Slaaneshi-like but not technically Slaaneshi" is just plain confusing.

Like we've discussed here before, if you make their background starting point "DE steal souls so that they might live," and then expand upon what that means and entails, most of their other fluff points fall into place. And you get the 5-word summary/hook for the newbies instead of the 5 paragraph explanation.

DE are soul vampires.

Phil Kelly's a good writer. Whether or not this is the specific approach he takes, I think he'll sort it out.

5 words:

DE are emo space elves

Or, more accurately:

You hate them. Nothing new.