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dienekes96 wrote:
You assume that Space Marine players are also Space Wolf players. They are not. No more than Eldar players are Dark Eldar players. My Space Wolves have not gotten new models since 2003. I still require TWO books to play my army, the only army to do so.

So you can put "research" in quotes all you want, but I explained a) my rationale and metrics and b) cited actual data - which is the scientific method after all. And your list is missing data. Which makes it worthless.

I DON'T PLAY SPACE MARINES. Could I rep my list with SM? Sure. So could you, with half an ounce of wit and imagination. So that excuse doesn't wash. Whine about Space Marines. Not the Space Wolves. And not the Blood Angels, who haven't seen new models in 11 years.

And eat **** while you are at it. That goes for anyone who whines about me finally getting an army book. Like every army except DE and BA has since I last did (in several cases, two books).

Bull @#$%.

ALL MARINES got new drop pods, new landspeeders and new models LAST YEAR. The fact you have to paint them grey and he has to paint them blue and that other guy has to paint them green is immaterial.

It would be like me whinning that my Tallarns haven't gotten new models since 1995.

Sure GW can rename a few units and shuffle some special rules around to make the Grey Space Marine different from the Blue Space Marines. So what? They could do that with any army. In 3rd edition several craftworlds, chaos legions and IG regiments has their own sub-set of rules. With 4th and 5th GW is making looser codexes that allow us to play many different ways.

Why can't they just do that for the rainbow of Space Marines and free up slots for armies that really are different?

Because gw listens to the people who buy the armies that sell the most your tallarns just got a new codex just like my Cadians but the Tallarns, Praetorian, Armageddon steel legion, and the First born are niche armies so they don't get new stuff like the others as often. Yes Space marines received new stuff last year but space wolves don't have any thing new that are just for them like dark angels or Black Templars. GW stated there will be no combi codex's not going to happen with there cash cow so live with the fact that there will be multiple marine codex's. If you don't like what is happening write gw see where it gets you I will be enjoying my new codex.

God what a fethed up night, I hate my fething job.

So, anyway...

I play an imperial army, and they have had less attention than Tau. My model range is entirely metal, and predominantly from second edition. How are Tau doing there? Fine, eh? My Codex is from third edition, though it was just a butchered version of the second edition codex that got slammed into another army. How are Tau doing there? Fine, eh?

What are you trying to say, I don't get it...

I think you may have misunderstood me, I wasn't trying to claim that Tau were worse off than every other army, I was merely disputing the claim that since the background doesn't revolve around my army it doesn't deserve attention. It shouldn't matter if the background revolves around SM/the Imperium at all, it's a game and as such it needs to be fair and balanced.

I assume you're referring to WH/DH, in which case yeah, I'd say you definitely have it worse than most, myself included. All metal troops must be a fething nightmare.

Seriously, have you taken a step back and looked at your arguments? Tau are not that badly off. They have a fourth edition codex that is only a few years old, they have an almost completely plastic line, and there are rumours of new plastics in the future.

1) Rants, you mean.

2) No, I suppose they aren't that bad off, it's not like it's impossible to win with Tau. But it does take quite a bit more effort than I feel it should, but that could have more to do with the fact that I constantly have to play hard-as-balls lists like double Lash every time I play 40k and don't fight these fabled "fun lists" that often. I've been trying to optimize my army, if I can get my two broadsides built I might stand a much better chance.

It's just frustrating when you constantly get your ass stomped by all these powerful codices that have been coming out, and yours was a gakky 3rd edition rehash that didn't have any nasty powerbuilds even in its prime. I saw everyone complain about Tau being "cheesy" and overpowered, but I never saw why...now it's the opposite, everyone tells me Tau are bad.

Maybe I should just stop listening to people.

3) Rumors of new plastics? You mean a second wave? I doubt it, I'm still not all that confident that GW will even continue with this new business model of theirs, they've already kinda fallen behind with Daemons being pushed back. Maybe they'll prove me wrong though, I dunno, but the fact remains that its not beyond them and they could do a 180 at any moment.

The Space Marines are the poster boys, this has been the case since long before I heard of Warhammer! If you do not play the Smurfs, you are not a priority army. If you did not already know this, you have had your head in the sand. Half the armies are MEQ, so every year is guaranteed to have 1-2 MEQ armies done in it. Half the armies are Imperial, so you can guarantee at least one Imperial army every year. These are blindingly obvious facts. Tau are not a high priority? Sorry, but they are not! I would agree, they deserve an update more than the Tyranids, but the Tyranids will probably be one they can push out the door quicker --- they only need a minor update, after all, whereas the Tau deserve a full update this time.

Okay...I can understand why you're saying that, but really, I don't need you to tell me what I already know...like you said, they're "blindingly obvious" facts, after all.

I'm not that stupid, I know Space Marines sell, I know GW is publicly traded, I know why they push Marines so hard and why they steal most of the attention. And I still don't think it's fair. It's not that I'm horribly naive and just don't understand, I just think it's bs.

And yeah, that was part of the reason why I was a little upset, because I personally thought Tau kinda needed the update more than Tyranids, despite getting an update after they did. But yeah, I suppose Tau need more work, seeing as how they didn't put hardly any into the last one that came out. Maybe it'll be worth waiting for, I dunno.

Feel free to continue playing the Martyr, but the Sisters, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Necrons, Squads, Lost and the Damned... OK, the players of damned near every other army will beat you up behind the bike shed.

You had such a good argument up until the end, I don't think the implied threat of violence was really called for, but in either case point taken. Not the face!



Anyway, moving on.

But not as interesting as Ad Mech.

I don't know why everyone loves the Ad Mech so much, I just don't see what's so appealing about them.

I've seen converted Ad Mech armies and they look interesting enough, but not so much that I felt compelled to have one of my own. I guess it'd be something different, but meh.

And eat **** while you are at it. That goes for anyone who whines about me finally getting an army book. Like every army except DE and BA has since I last did (in several cases, two books).

Is this a good time to mention that I'm not all that opposed to a Space Wolves update? I still would have rather had Dark Eldar but I'd already come to accept that they were first even before the news of more Marine updates was leaked out.

If any chapter deserves a standalone codex it would be SW, after all.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

dienekes96 wrote:
You assume that Space Marine players are also Space Wolf players. They are not. No more than Eldar players are Dark Eldar players. My Space Wolves have not gotten new models since 2003. I still require TWO books to play my army, the only army to do so.

So you can put "research" in quotes all you want, but I explained a) my rationale and metrics and b) cited actual data - which is the scientific method after all. And your list is missing data. Which makes it worthless.

I DON'T PLAY SPACE MARINES. Could I rep my list with SM? Sure. So could you, with half an ounce of wit and imagination. So that excuse doesn't wash. Whine about Space Marines. Not the Space Wolves. And not the Blood Angels, who haven't seen new models in 11 years.

And eat **** while you are at it. That goes for anyone who whines about me finally getting an army book. Like every army except DE and BA has since I last did (in several cases, two books).

Bull @#$%.

ALL MARINES got new drop pods, new landspeeders and new models LAST YEAR. The fact you have to paint them grey and he has to paint them blue and that other guy has to paint them green is immaterial.

Too bad I don't play Space Marines, Kyoto, I play Space Wolves, and 13th Company at that. hat makes me reliant upon a Space Wolves Codex to get models for infantry, since that is what my army is.

2)

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It would be like me whinning that my Tallarns haven't gotten new models since 1995.

I raise you your Bull @#$% with a "don't be ignorant and petulant". Tallarn NEVER had a Codex. They are part of another Codex (IG) which has had two updates since the Wolves had one. Space Wolves have had a Codex. So it wouldn't be like you whining that. Since mine is based in comany history and your is based on your opinion of what constitutes an army.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Sure GW can rename a few units and shuffle some special rules around to make the Grey Space Marine different from the Blue Space Marines. So what? They could do that with any army. In 3rd edition several craftworlds, chaos legions and IG regiments has their own sub-set of rules. With 4th and 5th GW is making looser codexes that allow us to play many different ways.

Why can't they just do that for the rainbow of Space Marines and free up slots for armies that really are different?

Because, based on the absence of of BA, BT, DA, and SW in the 5th edition Codex, they are clearly determined to see those armies (who historically have had a book and a presence in the game) get a full release. Perhaps because it moves more product for less effort, not a bad idea in a recession.

You go start a restaurant that focuses on menu items that are designed solely to be "different" from one another, and I'll design one based on which items sells the most. We'll see who is still in business in, I don't know, two months.

I don't give a fig that you consider all Marine armies the same, Kyoto. I don't. Neither does the designer. Looking at their release history, I can gauge that with about 8 seconds of analytical thought. The only downside to my army, besides the long wait, has been listening to moronic fans NOT realize that 3rd edition was the most Marine-centric by far. And that was 5-10 years ago. Let it go.

dienekes96 wrote:Too bad I don't play Space Marines, Kyoto, I play Space Wolves, and 13th Company at that. hat makes me reliant upon a Space Wolves Codex to get models for infantry, since that is what my army is.

Your army shares 90% of its models with the rest of marines. Whinning that one sub-faction didn't get new models specific to it is just silly.

dienekes96 wrote:I raise you your Bull @#$% with a "don't be ignorant and petulant". Tallarn NEVER had a Codex. They are part of another Codex (IG) which has had two updates since the Wolves had one. Space Wolves have had a Codex. So it wouldn't be like you whining that. Since mine is based in comany history and your is based on your opinion of what constitutes an army.

Ellysians had an army list.
Tanith had an army list.
Cadians had an army list.
Catachans had their own codex.
City fight guard had an army list.
Armored companies had an army list.
Steel Legion had an army list.

All of them are now, happily or unhappily, in one big book.

Right now marine armies are in utter chaos because some have one kind of storm shield, others have another kind. Same with a bunch of other wargear. A whole lot of marines who had army lists of their own (Salamanders, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, White Scars) all have to live side-by-side with the rest of the marines. Why should Grey, Green, Black and Red marines be special while White, Yellow, other Black and Other Green should not be?

A big book o'marines is the only solution that makes sense.

dienekes96 wrote:Because, based on the absence of of BA, BT, DA, and SW in the 5th edition Codex, they are clearly determined to see those armies (who historically have had a book and a presence in the game) get a full release. Perhaps because it moves more product for less effort, not a bad idea in a recession.

As I noted there's a half dozen guard regiments that got their own army lists after the Wolves that lost them. What makes Wolves more unique than Ellysians or Chem Dogs or White Scars or Savage Orks or any other sub-army?

dienekes96 wrote:I don't give a fig that you consider all Marine armies the same, Kyoto. I don't. Neither does the designer.

The designers? the ones who give every marine army the same stats and wargear?

The differences are trivial. No greater than those among the old guard lists. In some cases much, much less.

I dont think the designers choose the releases agenda to be honest.

And to me space marine is a space marine... if you like diferent fluffs, colors etc its ok but they are space marines and to me they should be all in one fat book... Imagine tyranids... a codex for TMC's themed armies then a codex for the genestealers armies only then codex hive fleet bananas etc etc... Its just not right. IMHO

Edit: I think its positive to separate SM from CSM though...one big chaos book and another big SM book would do wonders but they wouldnt be as profitable as selling hive fleet bananas to monkeys.

dienekes96 wrote: realize that 3rd edition was the most Marine-centric by far. And that was 5-10 years ago. Let it go.

QFT

You had Iron Hands 13th company, separate books loads of marine stuff!

Chuck vs The Kid - this thread just got interesting.

*grabs popcorn*

Gentlemen, continue.

THe thing to remember is when GW started 3rd edition they had a stated goal of something like a codex a month.

And if we count all the WD sublists they pretty much pulled it off. All the founding chapters had a list, so did a half dozen IG armies, Orks had 2 or 3 varients, nids at least one...

Now some were horrible, some were overpowered, some were dull, some were half-baked, but there sure were a lot of them.

Arguing that since SWs got a sub-dex they somehow DESERVE a codex not just in 2009 but forever and ever until the stars grow cold is just silly.

I don't see too many people crying out for a Catachan codex and (unlike wolves) they have their own line of plastics and metals. A lot more than the Wolves ever had.

I'm not some whinny IG player either. I HAVE a wolves army. Till the IG book came out it was main army. They play just fine as Khorne Bezerkers. No need for my own codex.

Can you please explain to me why exactly you are complaining about having an old codex?

You can play them right

You can buy models right

You have a codex right

Why are you complaining? Is it because you can't win or is it just to whine?

Maybe it's because he feels that - as a customer - he has a right to request the products he is interested in buying. And - apparently - GW feels that this is a worthwhile investment. So therefore they have chosen to invest in a product that he wants.

Here's my take on the MOAR MARINEZ scenario.

If GW would replace all the variant marine codexes with 'other' material (LatD, AdMech, Genestealer Cult, variant IG, Chaos Legions, etc.), I would happily see all the Loyalist marines rolled into one or two books (I've said for a while, that they could do one book Codex: Codex and Minor-divergence Marines that would include DA and BA, and a second Codex: Major Divergent Marines that would include SW and BT).

If GW does away with the variant marine books though, I don't seem them filling that slot with a 'new' army. Marines sell, so they make more. It's an easy army for them to sell, take the basic marine kits, add a few special characters, some new sprues, maybe a couple unique units - probably less than 15 releases, and they have an army (with the Codex Marine kits) that covers probably 35 units for lots of 'variety'.

And, MOAR MARINEZ makes money for GW. If they don't make money, they don't stay in business. If they put a 'new' army into a SM slot, they don't make as much (since they're re-using a bunch of SM kits), and it doesn't sell as much volume either.

Personally, I'm a SW player, so I'm excited about the new book. But, I'd happily see it replaced by LatD, AdMech, or Genestealer Cults. There's a lot more differences (especially on the d6 scale) between LatD and Space Marines than Space Wolves and Space Marines. I'd content myself with playing Grey Codex Marines with big beards and axes, if any of those 3 books came out. But, it's not going to happen.

So, while MOAR MARINEZ isn't the most desirable from the variety standpoint, it's GW's business model. I don't see it changing either, so we might as well all accept it. And with the the talk of BA codex being 'in the works', it sounds like it's unlikely they'll roll BA and DA into a Codex: Codex (and minor divergences) Marines book.

dietrich wrote:So, while MOAR MARINEZ isn't the most desirable from the variety standpoint, it's GW's business model. I don't see it changing either, so we might as well all accept it. And with the the talk of BA codex being 'in the works', it sounds like it's unlikely they'll roll BA and DA into a Codex: Codex (and minor divergences) Marines book.

Apparently it is desirable to some people.

dienekes96 wrote:

You assume that Space Marine players are also Space Wolf players. They are not. No more than Eldar players are Dark Eldar players. My Space Wolves have not gotten new models since 2003. I still require TWO books to play my army, the only army to do so.

While true, many SW army builds could be represented almost perfectly using either the CSM or SM codex. Given how much of the book is simply "reference codex: space marines".

I DON'T PLAY SPACE MARINES.

Yes, you do. Space Wolves are Space Marines, with a couple e different abilities on a couple units compared with Codex chapters.

This same argument could be made to justify full codex's for Catachan's (again), or any number of individual guard regiments, or Tau Farsight enclaves, etc.

Could I rep my list with SM? Sure. So could you, with half an ounce of wit and imagination. So that excuse doesn't wash. Whine about Space Marines. Not the Space Wolves.

I think it boils down to is it different enough to really warrant its own release, or should it have simply been rolled into the basic SM book with a couple extra unit entries and wargear. Which could have been accomplished fairly easily. There's what, 4 things that really seperate SW's from normal SM's? Dev's ability to split fire, scouts ability to outflank from the opposite table edge instead of the sides, TrueGrit on grey hunters, and +2a charging reduced statline bloodclaws, it's basically a cut/paste job from the SM codex with the exception of those 4 abilities and the wargear available to characters. While those can be significant differences, they could easily have been rolled into one combined SM book.

And not the Blood Angels, who haven't seen new models in 11 years.

What on earth would they need? Their unique models (death company, and characters) have fine models, the Baal Predator is no older than the current Predator kit, and the rest of the army is identical in every way to normal SM units. Their entire army is basically a codex chapter with 1 FoC swap, a couple extra tank & dread armament options and an extra optional CC unit that has it's cost built in to everything, there's really not a whole lot to them. Blood Angels having nothing to update. What point were you trying to make there?

And eat **** while you are at it.

That was classy.

That goes for anyone who whines about me finally getting an army book. Like every army except DE and BA has since I last did (in several cases, two books).

You're getting a book, calm down. I think the question for many players however is, does the army really need its own book and could it (along with the other SM armies which often are simply a matter of either FoC swapping, or a couple special rules) simply have been included in the basic SM codex and not taken further development and release time from other armies?

I think the answer is yes.

daygo2ilm wrote:Can you please explain to me why exactly you are complaining about having an old codex?

You can play them right

You can buy models right

You have a codex right

Why are you complaining? Is it because you can't win or is it just to whine?

I have never whined about waiting for a new Codex. Ever. You either have issues with reading or comprehension. My issue is that any thread dedicated to discussing the release of a codex I have been waiting years for. I have never begrudged another player their release or two. And I am sick of people ignoring facts to whine about SW getting an update. I tried reasonable and polite. It didn't work. People wanted to belittle previous efforts I made to rely on actual release schedules and GW precedent. They wanted to wishlist and whine about an army book that does not apply to mine in what is, frankly, the wrong thread for it.

I am past all that. Fine, let's be dicks about it. I assure you that I can be a bigger a-hole.

I'd rather just be excited about one of the more visually striking armies in the game getting a redo 9 years after the fact.

I care about the rules least of all. I can make any ruleset work. I care about the models and the art.

So I don't care about being classy. If a poster wants to "call me" on it or be a pecker, then I am going to respond in kind.

In short, this isn't about rules or releases at all, but decorum and mutual consideration.

And on that note...rtfp.

The reason marines win is cause they are easy to collect. I will never collect a guard army cause you need too many models to make 1500 points.

Moquisition on:

Dakka Rule #1: Politeness is required. This is getting a little heated folks-lets simmer down please.

Lightnen up, or is it full moon yet?

Dont see reasons for all this stress.

Do I consider your preferences less than any other spacemarine chapter? Nope and sm fans should be extremelly happy with GW... As I said i can take 5 years waiting for my bugs ( even more since we are packed with good models), so i have no problem with the sm intoxication. I do find really odd you not considering SW just spacemarines with a wolf twist... Put yourself in my shoes for a minute... image me all stressed up just because people dont understand that I need a genestealer army codex since they are not pure nids! odd isnt it?

Take it easy man, GW will make your puppies for sure.

You are all fighting about the same thing really.

If you go back and see which codex were released during each edition, you'll see SM and it's variants are the most updated.

I'm all for cleaning the slate, especially if you're going to change major rules and effect how an army operates. But to go 3 editions without an update sucks (DE). And to get your own army/sub-codex and then it goes away (13th Co, Genestealer cults, LotD) in the next edition really sucks.

NAVARRO wrote:Lightnen up, or is it full moon yet?

Dont see reasons for all this stress.

Do I consider your preferences less than any other spacemarine chapter? Nope and sm fans should be extremelly happy with GW... As I said i can take 5 years waiting for my bugs ( even more since we are packed with good models), so i have no problem with the sm intoxication. I do find really odd you not considering SW just spacemarines with a wolf twist... Put yourself in my shoes for a minute... image me all stressed up just because people dont understand that I need a genestealer army codex since they are not pure nids! odd isnt it?

Take it easy man, GW will make your puppies for sure.

QFT!

Some people are finally getting long-overdue updates for the game, so this should be good news. Some armies are not, but then nobody should have been expecting updates for those armies, based on GW's past history.

As a SM player, I'd have mixed feelings if Phil Kelly weren't writing my Codex. If Robin were giving things another go, I'd be very apprehensive. But as a SW player, no longer being shackled to the SM Codex, getting an updated Codex should be a positive sign overall.

And realistically, most major armies are on a ~5-year cycle, so that's nothing unusual. If it were any faster, I wouldn't be as able to keep up with all of my armies. And, yeah, being selfish, I would like a proper Biel-Tan orientation to the Eldar Codex, similar to the Black Legion orientation of the CSM Codex, or even a standalone Codex: Biel-Tan Craftworld! If I get it, awesome. If not, then things stay the same. Oh, well.

Man, d96 is quite the big man on a screen. Anyways i wasn't really directing that comment at anyone. Weird how you got all defensive about it though. All I was saying was I am sick of people complaining about updates. Be it SW, DE, Tau, Necrons, and the list goes on forever. So, d96, please continue to feel attacked it gives me a warm and fuzzy.

As for someone who should be complaining. I play DE and have been for about 9 years. The stamp was pretty sweet. I could care less if they change my codex, release new models, give me a update or attempt to "fix" my army in any sort of fashion. I enjoy rocking people with the"worst" army. That's all I got on that.

Please stop taking things so personal and get over yourself.

Bye

Having re-reviewed, this thread has too much flaming. I am closing before I disciplinary actions have to be invoked.

Please feel free to repost rumors.