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Orkeosaurus wrote:It doesn't matter that they can't take it as a painboy, it's taken as a nob. The painboy upgrade is later.

Also, I don't see any proof of a painboy not being a nob. The wording "one nob may be a painboy" makes no implication that the painboy is no longer a nob. They have different profiles, but that's just inductive.

Different Profiles, different wargear options, different Unit Entries too.

Is a Apothecary a Veteran? No, he is an Apothecary, so cannot take wargear available to Veterans. Is an Aspiring Champion still a Chaos Space Marine? No, he is an Aspiring Champion, so cannot take wargear available to Chaos Space Marines. Likewise, a Painboy is not a Nob, so... see what I am getting at?

Orkeosaurus wrote:It doesn't matter that they can't take it as a painboy, it's taken as a nob. The painboy upgrade is later.

Also, I don't see any proof of a painboy not being a nob. The wording "one nob may be a painboy" makes no implication that the painboy is no longer a nob. They have different profiles, but that's just inductive.

Different names and profiles mean that a unit is different. That's the whole basis for 40K, and if those aren't what it takes for units to be different, then there is no differentiation between units or models at all, and I can happily take a power klaw on my imperial guard conscript. Sure, it's got a different name and profile from a Nob, but it's the same thing, right?


The problem here is the apparent belief that you can upgrade a model as many times as you want, which is false. You can give a model as many upgrades as you want, but can only upgrade that model once.

Is there somewhere in the rules where it states having a new profile means it's no longer part of a broader category it once belonged to? Please, give me a page for this one. Give me a page for the rule that states that all upgrades are done at once, while you're at it, because as far as I can tell that's your speculation.

The wording for the upgrade is the core of the rule regarding it, and that wording doesn't make any implication for the painboy no longer being a nob.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Is there somewhere in the rules where it states having a new profile means it's no longer part of a broader category it once belonged to? Please, give me a page for this one. Give me a page for the rule that states that all upgrades are done at once, while you're at it, because as far as I can tell that's your speculation.

The wording for the upgrade is the core of the rule regarding it, and that wording doesn't make any implication for the painboy no longer being a nob.

That is not how the rules work. You have to prove it still is a Nob. "It doesn't say it isn't" is not how the rules work mate.

Consists of 3-10 nobs.

It is now a nob. Prove that it ceases to be one when upgraded to a painboy.

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:By your logic, the entire unit will have a Bike, but once you upgrade he loses his bike and must be on foot. Since the rules wont allow you to have mixed bikes and footsloggers, you would therefore have to downgrade all the Nobs to be on foot as well.

No, that is not what the rules say at all.

By YOUR logic, Painboyz can never be given bikes. You are the one that is nuts, not me.

Once more with feeling:
A painboy may take a bike, because the unit is upgraded, not a Nob. Once the Nobz become Nob Bikers, you may Upgrade one nob to a Painboy, who keeps the bike because the whole unit has them, not just the nobz. 'Eavy Armour can only be taken by Nobz.

After upgrading the Nobs your wargear looks like this:

Slugga
Choppa
Warbike

With PB upgrade you replace Slugga and Choppa:

Dok's Tools
Syringe
Warbike

Hence you get a Painboy Biker

However, why is it if I have:

Slugga
Choppa
Nob Warbike
Eavy Armour

and I upgrade to a Painboy I get the same result as above:

Dok's Tools
Syringe
Nob Warbike

But no Eavy Armour? How can I keep a bike and not Eavy armour? Where are you coming up with these pick and choose rules? The answer: They dont exist. You can either lose all previous wargear, so both Bikes and Armour, or you keep everything, so Painboys get Bikes and Eavy Armour. It doesnt matter if the whole mob has it, there is no entry for a Painboy having a bike. You are claiming its a seperate unit and cant take Nob upgrades, yet youre giving it a Nob upgrade! Makes No sense! You either lose all your wargear when you upgrade or you dont, its simple!

Orkeosaurus wrote:Consists of 3-10 nobs.

It is now a nob. Prove that it ceases to be one when upgraded to a painboy.

It's profile changes? Or are you saying the profile is irrelevant, and I can now give my IG conscripts Docs Toolz or my Regular Nobz Grot Orderlies?

@Night Lords: Give it up. I already Explained it to you, the Bikes are not a Nob Upgrade, they are a Unit Upgrade, so are kept when it becomes a Painboy.

Its profile changes. All that means is it has a new profile.

Conscripts were never nobs, and are in a different unit entry. Completely irrelevant.

E-mailed GW about it. Hope it gets returned quickly.

You could also look at the fluff of the Painboys (pg 38 of the codex). Says nothing about them being nobs...actually, it says things along the lines of them getting along well with Meks. They essentially tag along with the Nobs, hoping to 'help' them in a fight.

The codex agrees with this. They are a separate class unit, in the same mob.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Its profile changes. All that means is it has a new profile.

Conscripts were never nobs, and are in a different unit entry. Completely irrelevant.

Painboyz have their own unit entry too. They have a different name, and are clearly not nobz. One Nob may be a painboy. That's it, a Painboy, not a Nob. It does not say "one nob becomes a Painboy Nob."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MasticatorDeelux wrote:E-mailed GW about it. Hope it gets returned quickly.

I ask you now, please don't post the reply, it wont help at all. In fact, it will weaken whatever side he rules "for", as John Spenser has consistently shown he has not a clue about the rules.

Gwar! wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Consists of 3-10 nobs.

@Night Lords: Give it up. I already Explained it to you, the Bikes are not a Nob Upgrade, they are a Unit Upgrade, so are kept when it becomes a Painboy.

And in that case, Regular Nob Bikers may not have claws, Eavy armour or any upgrade either, because now theyre called Nob Bikers, and there are no Nob Biker upgrades. So Nob Bikers are either Nobs on Bikes (an individual nob who can be upgraded to painboy, but loses his bike because, as you said, Painboys only have Doks tools as gear) or Nob Bikers (meaning you cant have a painboy since he cannot be upgraded from a Nob Biker).

You cant have it both ways. There is no way he can keep a bike as wargear from a nob, but not Eavy armour.

One person may be a firefighter.

"They are clearly not nobz" can't be your argument for them not being nobs.

Them not having the word "nob" in their name is a poor argument, as it's relevance is purely speculative.

Night Lords wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Consists of 3-10 nobs.

@Night Lords: Give it up. I already Explained it to you, the Bikes are not a Nob Upgrade, they are a Unit Upgrade, so are kept when it becomes a Painboy.

And in that case, Regular Nob Bikers may not have claws, Eavy armour or any upgrade either, because now theyre called Nob Bikers, and there are no Nob Biker upgrades. So Nob Bikers are either Nobs on Bikes (an individual nob who can be upgraded to painboy, but loses his bike because, as you said, Painboys only have Doks tools as gear) or Nob Bikers (meaning you cant have a painboy since he cannot be upgraded from a Nob Biker).

You cant have it both ways. There is no way he can keep a bike as wargear from a nob, but not Eavy armour.

I challenge you to put more words in my mouth. Just try.

Let me repeat the points one more time, nice and slow. Try to listen instead of setting me up as a straw man, okay?

You take a Nobz Mob.
You decide to upgrade the unit to Nob Bikers.
Every model in the unit now has a bike, because the unit is Nob Bikers.
You upgrade a nob to a painboy.
The painboy cannot take 'eavy armour. 'eavy armour is a nob upgrade, not a painboy upgrade. Painboys are not nobs.
The painboy rides a bike, because he is a part of a Nob Bikers Unit.
Individual nobs may be upgraded with additional wargear, because they are nobs.
The nobs are on bikes because they are a part of a Nob Biker Unit

Please forget about this 'nob biker' gak, because there is no such thing as a nob biker. The only time it appears in the codex is as a part of the unit name 'nob bikers'

Night Lords wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Consists of 3-10 nobs.

@Night Lords: Give it up. I already Explained it to you, the Bikes are not a Nob Upgrade, they are a Unit Upgrade, so are kept when it becomes a Painboy.

And in that case, Regular Nob Bikers may not have claws, Eavy armour or any upgrade either, because now theyre called Nob Bikers, and there are no Nob Biker upgrades. So Nob Bikers are either Nobs on Bikes (an individual nob who can be upgraded to painboy, but loses his bike because, as you said, Painboys only have Doks tools as gear) or Nob Bikers (meaning you cant have a painboy since he cannot be upgraded from a Nob Biker).

You cant have it both ways. There is no way he can keep a bike as wargear from a nob, but not Eavy armour.

Sorry, but a Nob Biker is still a nob. A Painboy is not a nob.

Orkeosaurus wrote:One person may be a firefighter.

"They are clearly not nobz" can't be your argument for them not being nobs.

Them not having the word "nob" in their name is a poor argument, as it's relevance is purely speculative.

Having a different name makes the unit a different unit.


Chaos Space Marine Havocs are not Chaos Space Marines. They have identical statlines and are similar, but they have a different name.

If having a different name and a separate statline are not sufficient for being different units, then the game of 40K is unplayable.

K page 99 , there is 2 distinct differences in wording the upgrades:

The Entire mob
vs
Any Nob

The Entire mob clearly means its a whole unit upgrade which will include the pain boy.

Which means Any Nob ( it HAS to be still a Nob , not a Nob = cannot take ) Pain boy is NOT a Nob

For example:

Any marine in a tactical squad may take 1 heavy weapon.
According to what you guys said , a Marine upgraded into a sergent is still a Marine.

That would also have to imply that the Upgraded Marine aka Sergent , is able to take heavy weapon. But we know its not so.

Thus samething goes with the "is pain boy still a NOB just because he was *upgraded* from a Nob" I would say 100% very no desu.

First of all, we're talking about models, not units. Painboys and nobs are in the same unit.

Second of all, why would the game be unplayable if a havoc was a type of chaos space marine? I'm not advocating allowing options to be chosen from outside your unit entry.

I'm not claiming that a painboy and a nob are one in the same. What I'm saying is that a painboy is a more specific subtype of nob. All painboys are nobs, not all nobs are painboys.

This is because there is no proof in the rules that a painboy loses his nob status.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Luna, the rules for the painboy do not say "upgrade".

Orkeosaurus wrote:First of all, we're talking about models, not units. Painboys and nobs are in the same unit.

Second of all, why would the game be unplayable if a havoc was a type of chaos space marine? I'm not advocating allowing options to be chosen from outside your unit entry.

I'm not claiming that a painboy and a nob are one in the same. What I'm saying is that a painboy is a more specific subtype of nob. All painboys are nobs, not all nobs are painboys.

This is because there is no proof in the rules that a painboy loses his nob status.

In a Tactical Squad, can a Sergeant take a heavy Weapon? No he cannot. Why? because he is a Sergeant, not a Tactical Marine. Exact same Situation.

Orkeosaurus wrote:
I'm not claiming that a painboy and a nob are one in the same. What I'm saying is that a painboy is a more specific subtype of nob. All painboys are nobs, not all nobs are painboys.

This is because there is no proof in the rules that a painboy loses his nob status.

Compared to:

Im not claiming that a Marine Sergent and a Marine are one in the same. What im saying is that a Marine Sergent is a more specific subtype of Marine. All Marine Sergents are marines , Not all Marines are Sergents.

This is because there is no proof in the rules that a Marine Sergent loses his marine status.

*Yet , why cant a Marine Sergent take heavy weapons or special weapons the same way a marine does?

Circular reasoning, Gwar!.

I'm saying that a painboy is a nob, ergo only you think that it's the same situation.

Luna, a sergeant is a space marine, he is not a tactical marine, so I don't know what you're trying to say here. A sergeant was never a tactical marine.

Gwar! wrote:THE PAINBOY IS NOT A NOB

QFT.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Circular reasoning.

I'm saying that a painboy is a nob, ergo only you think that it's the same situation.

What? How does that make sense?

It is the same situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Luna, a sergeant is a space marine, he is not a tactical marine, so I don't know what you're trying to say here. A sergeant was never a tactical marine.

Ok then, how about Chaos Space Marines and Aspiring Champions. If you make a CSM a AC, can he now take wargear available only to CSM? No he can't. Same way as a Painboy cannot take Nob wargear.

You have a nob. It may be a painboy. There is no implication there that the painboy is no longer a type of nob.

You have a sergeant. You get him along with some tactical marines when you buy the squad. He has never been one of the tactical marines, he is by no stretch of the imagination one now.

They're completely different situations.

When it says, "The entire mob may take..." it is because you can't have one nob with stikkbombs and the rest without. The same with bikes; you can't have one nob with a bike and the rest without.

The entries specific to individual nob wargear are because you can customize each nob, and the entire nob mob need not take all the same things.

I'm not weighing in here because I've already experienced Gwar's penchant to scream in huge font and call names when people prove him wrong.

An aspiring champion is an upgrade to a chaos marine. That implies that he is no longer one of the chaos marines, as he has become something better.

The entry for the painboy option makes no mention of it being an upgrade.

Orkeosaurus, following your reasoning, I could have a Heavy Weapon Team in an IG Infantry Squad that has a Lascannon, Plasma Rifle, and a Vox Caster. Do you really think that's true?

How is the wording on Cybork? Is it unit wide or per-nob?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Orkeosaurus, following your reasoning, I could have a Heavy Weapon Team in an IG Infantry Squad that has a Lascannon, Plasma Rifle, and a Vox Caster. Do you really think that's true?

How is the wording on Cybork? Is it unit wide or per-nob?

It is a unit upgrade, and you need a painboy to get it (or mad Doc)

@Dashofpepper: Seriously, grow up.

Gwar! , may i ask an off topic question for someone else?


Around how many seperate case of GW rule confusions / discussions have you bump into so far?

Someone has been telling me GW rules are perfection and the other wargames = useless junk. I just want to ask so i can point this thread as example for his trolling arguments .

LunaHound wrote:Around how many seperate case of GW rule confusions / discussions have you bump into so far?

Someone has been telling me GW rules are perfection and the other wargames = useless junk. I just want to ask so i can point this thread as example for his trolling arguments .

Show them the Necron Codex, then burn it. Then the Tau Codex, and strap it to C4.

GW rules are The worst written in the hobby. The only reason people play it is because it is the most popular. Only reason I even play is because no-one else plays anything else where I am unless I travel 3 hours to game, which I cannot/will not do. It would take GW literally 3 weeks of work to release an update PDF to errata all the codexes, and then a few days every 3 months to put out new clarifications, but GW do not care about the actual hobbyist or the Veteran Gamer, just the 13 year olds they sell SPESS MAHRINES too.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Orkeosaurus, following your reasoning, I could have a Heavy Weapon Team in an IG Infantry Squad that has a Lascannon, Plasma Rifle, and a Vox Caster. Do you really think that's true?

That's rather different, as it's two models becoming one model, and thus it's impossible for it to be the same model it was before before the upgrade.

(Is the wording for the Heavy Weapon Teams still "may form"?)


Also, yes, GW is a poor rules writer, and their problems are further exasperated by refusing to update their codices with the new rulebook. However their refusal to errata their rules after problems surface is their biggest problem.