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Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models

I guess jump infantry are fine as far as RAW goes
I think dante will be in the sky with a chappy and the death company while playing SW

Daemon armies are going to be in trouble because he can hit them right after they deep strike (poor plague bearers). Also daemons are going to have a fun time killing Lukas, unless they are tzeentch, but that is the name of the game. I can see mono nurgle lists having a hard time against SW in the near future. I2 on everything really bites. Even GUOs are removed 50% of the time

Everyone that is overreacting should wait to read the codex before they continue to wail unecessarily. Seriously, this thread is ridiculous. If you cant figure out how to deal with one psychic power and one BLOOD CLAW UPGRADE CHARACTER that is expensive, 2W, and capped at LD8, then you should just stop playing 40K altogether.

As always, we need to see the rule first...

But I've heard a fair amount of correlation from different sources that it does kill the model it touches, doesn't allow any save, etc. etc.

IMO, this is a bad rule. I think all the "hey, MAN UP" guys are missing the point here... YES there are ways to deal with it. SURE there are models that will laugh it off. NO one single power doesn't break a whole Codex, or game system, or whatever.

The problem is that this rule strikes me as just being a "bad idea." The scale of this rule is off, it's too "all or nothing." This leads to a rocks-paper-scissors effect that's really unfun to play.

Sure, there will always be some of that... But you want to try to build the rules so it's not as pronounced. I feel like this rule fails at that. It creates a situation where any low I army is just DONE, and any high I army is laughing at the 400 points mostly wasted.

i'm not complaining about lukas... I never really was. nobody is going to take him, he's far too expensive and its really easy to ensure your special characters don't get in base to base with him.

my whole problem is that its a straight "removed from play" if you fail your I test. that is completely unique to the space wolf codex, and its not a good rule. at all. the whole point of invulnerable saves is to always be able to take them. sure, necrons get around it, but they have fluff to back that up. librarians can disrupt it, sure, but its still there. this is the only ranged power in the game that nullifies invulnerable saves, ignores eternal warrior, and allows for sniping of characters.

a ranged power that snipes eternal warriors and instantly kills them. a VINDICARE ASSASSIN doesn't have that kind of power. why should a space wolf psyker? If they want to give them powers, give them some crazy close combat enhancing powers. something to go with fluff. give them shamanistic powers (like their other powers, which are JUST as broken). but this one power makes no sense.

Fluff wise, I really don't get why Space Wolves would have one of the most powerful psychic abilities in the game. Don't Eldar or some other races have far stronger reputations as being far better psykers.

I think whoever wrote it just had a hard on for the special character they wrote and decided to give it abilities outside what already exists. Common beginner writing error often called "Mary Sue".

Lets get some facts straight.

First, the Jaws of the World Wolf is a general SW psychic power, meaning any SW psyker can have it. It is a 24" shooting power that emanates in a straight line. All models touched by this line must pass an I test or be removed from play. Monstrous creatures get a +1 to this roll. This will allow sniping specific models if you are able to aim it correctly. There are no saves, since it does not cause a wound, but it can be stopped by a psychic hood or other similar means. Removed from play does not mean there is no kill point as the model removed is not 'killed'. It is not the product of a 'common writing error' or someone having a hard on for a special character. It fits well within established SW fluff as the Rune Priest invokes the power of the World Wolf, the earth cracks open, and the affected model(s) falls into the crevice.

Lukas' power, known as The Last Laugh, represents the detonation of a stasis bomb that has been implanted in place of his secondary heart, which was ripped out by a Dark Eldar warlord. Dodgy fluff aside, this is implemented in game by all models in base contact with Lukas when he is killed if the SW player wins a roll off on a d6. Lukas is a 2W upgrade to a unit of Blood Claws, which are a WS3 BS3 troop unit. The unit he is with is capped at LD8 as a result of another of his special rules. He does have a special defense against shooting. I would not recommend tank shocking him with anything important.

The amount of false information and unecessary fear in this thread is ridiculous. Neither of these powers are game breaking. The SW codex is written around the idea that their characters are epic in the style of Beowulf or Ogier the Dane, their powers reflect this idea, as do their point values. If you stack your army with powerful characters and unit upgrades, which is entirely possible, you will be forced to rely on those characters to carry the game because the remainder of your army will be small even if you fill it with cheap 15pt Grey Hunters.

Lets all take a deep breath. The codex is actually well written IMO, the army does have some significant drawbacks, and it is sufficiently different from the 'standard' marine codex to achieve new playstyles and unique army builds. Lets give it 6 months and see how the metagame evolves before we all lose our minds and ragequit.

no.

edit -

Yes, I know it won't be that bad. I just do not agree with the fact that the power exists outside of any current rules for warhammer 40,000.

JotWW is less powerful than Lash.

Why? Because 50% or more of the time the majority of armies ignore it completely.

With Lash, you get lumped into a ball or pulled out of cover and vaporized.

With JotWW you allocate (psychic shooting attack, folks, all rules apply) hits and roll a 4+.

Mech completely cock blocks it, and the majority of MCs laugh 5/6 times.

I really don't see the hysteria.

sourclams wrote:

With JotWW you allocate (psychic shooting attack, folks, all rules apply) hits and roll a 4+.

This may be true. I didn't much like reading it as it seemed like you could snipe models.

But then again, something like a battle cannon will "wound models covered on a 2+" and of course it doesn't mean those SPECIFIC models. So as long as it can't snipe, it's really not that amazing. In MOST situations, it will kill a few models per shot - something a power like Smite could easily do any day of the week. Hell depending on the unit targetted, a Primaris Psyker can potentially do way more damage, especially with "Fire on My Target" orders.

Agreed, the sniping part is the worst, without it, it is only really powerful against nids and deamons

Phryxis wrote:As always, we need to see the rule first...

But I've heard a fair amount of correlation from different sources that it does kill the model it touches, doesn't allow any save, etc. etc.

I've had my own eyeballs on the copy of the actual codex released to my FLGS, spent a lot of time staring at that specific power, and I can confirm that 4square's quote of the rule on page 2 of this thread is verbatim the actual text. Kills models, no saves, initiative test, ignores terrain.

I also agree that this isn't a game-breaker. It feels unusually OTT powerful for the points, and it may have an effect on the recent trend toward big expensive uber-characters and "zilla" variant armies (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), but no reason to pack up your models and quit.

[edit] and, hey, I just realized that jump infantry and jetbikes are immune. So give your DP wings, your farseer a bike, or take Shrike instead of Vulcan and it's no problem.

Witzkatz wrote:Keep the initiative test that models take when they get hit. This is not LOLZ REMOAV EVRYTHNGI!. Lowly guardsmen will survive in 50% of cases, every single Eldar unit will survive on 83.4% of cases...hell, even Orks have 33% chance of survival. Yes, it is good against Carnifexes (Carnifices?), but the nids will get a new codex soon anyway, it seems.

Well, I guess the new codex will not counter this power.
Carnifexes are screwed anyway.

Horst wrote:my whole problem is that its a straight "removed from play" if you fail your I test. that is completely unique to the space wolf codex, and its not a good rule. at all. the whole point of invulnerable saves is to always be able to take them. sure, necrons get around it, but they have fluff to back that up. librarians can disrupt it, sure, but its still there. this is the only ranged power in the game that nullifies invulnerable saves, ignores eternal warrior, and allows for sniping of characters.

In rebuttal from the Jaws of the World Wolf and MC's thread,

Gwar! wrote:There is:
Gift of Chaos
Boon of Mutation (Omg, its a 5th ed codex!!!)
Lukas the Trickster
Jaws of the World Wolf
Shock Attack Gunz going RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Old Zogwort going Squigify

It's not unprecedented. By no means is it a common ability, but other folk can do it. Heck, Ol' Zogwort even gets a new squig when he sends your model to the removed from play. Should I never play against Orks?

Sit down with the codex, and try to make the cheesiest build you can. Proxy it against your army, and I think you'll have a fairly easy time taking out the 20 or so models that are on the board.

Ending this post before I get myself into trouble with the Mods.

Flavius Infernus:

Wings don't make Daemon Princes Jump Infantry: they're still Monstrous Creatures that act like Jump Infantry for the purposes of movement if they're equipped with Wings. Ditto for Chaos Lords and Sorcerers equipped with Wings: they'd still be Infantry and able to enter transports.

Well, if the power touches an enemy squad.
Can the opponent decide what models to remove?

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out how this new power absolutely rapes Tau.

keezus wrote:I'm surprised nobody has pointed out how this new power absolutely rapes Tau.

Let us participates at your insight.
Fire Warriors are dispensible.
Crisis should be kept away from the Rune Priest and
Broadsights are deployed in the back field anyway.

The biggest vulnerability to the Tau that I see are to the infiltrators. Just be careful where you put them, and you should be just fine; provided you're playing tactically sound. If you line your forces before the Rune Priest, then their extinction must have been for the Greater Good.

This style of weapon isn't unique to space woofs, it is just done in a much more effective manner than in other armies. Daemons and Chaos marines get a power that removes a model from play on a toughness test. However, this power costs 30 points and has a 6 inch range and only effects 1 model... And from what i hear this power is free for space woofs? Someone needs to rethink the point costs on psychic powers...

crisis/stealth teams are immune to this rule anyway... they are jetpack infantry.

Ok, if someone's going to say my winged princes and chaos lords aren't jump infantry, then I will refuse to make any dangerous terrain tests for starting/ending my moves in difficult terrain, because only jump infantry make those tests. My models are apparently monsters and infantry, respectively, that just MOVE like jump infantry.

I will get one, or I will get the other. I will not suffer the penalties of both.


By the way, the CSM power is made at the start of the turn and has only a 2 inch range. If it was during the shooting phase like it used to be it'd be much more useful.

Except that by the rules for Wings you would have to make dangerous terrain tests because models with Wings move like they were Jump Infantry. Moving like Jump Infantry involves taking dangerous terrain tests as appropriate.

Speaking of errors with the rules, the Gift of Chaos does indeed require casting at the beginning of the Chaos Space Marine player's turn, but the range is 6".

He's a daemon ie: no simpathy.
I tests are kak easy to make, I have to agree with shep on this. Unless your'e a 'fex, stop complaining. Its no more broken than lash usually is.

I have been doing a little research and I do not think the line of death is that useful or for that fact a lot of the other powers.

Eldar Farseerer
-Runes of Warding: All enemy Psychic are made with 3d6 and a 12+ suffers the perils of the warp

Deamon Hunters
-Grey Knights Aegis Armor: Everyone has a Psychic Hood
-Inquisitor’s Null Rod: Me and my Unit is IMMUNE to All Psychic Powers
-DH Unguents of Warding: get a 4+ save vs. Psychic Powers
-Culexus Temple Assassin: lest start with Soulless
>Soulless: Any Unit within 12” has a Leadership of 7 [It has a LD of 10]
>Psyk-Out Grenades: Range 6” if hit Target rolls 2d6 vs. LD, for every point of failure the Model takes 1 Wound [Save as normal]
>Life Drain: The Psychic Model in Close Combat makes Opposed 2d6+Ld vs. if the Assassin wins the Psychic Model takes 1 Wounds [NO SAVE]

Nids
-Psychic Scream: All models within 18” take a -1 to LD for every model with Psychic Scream
-Shadow in the Warp: All enemy Psychic Models roll 3d6 and discard the lowest.

Marines
-Psychic Hood

Imperial Guard
>Psychic Hood

Orcs
-They don’t Care {You popped my Dred, now eat 30 Boyz}

Tau
-You got within 24” How?

Nurglitch wrote:Except that by the rules for Wings you would have to make dangerous terrain tests because models with Wings move like they were Jump Infantry. Moving like Jump Infantry involves taking dangerous terrain tests as appropriate.

Speaking of errors with the rules, the Gift of Chaos does indeed require casting at the beginning of the Chaos Space Marine player's turn, but the range is 6".

Did they make it 6"? Ah. Well, still, I'd accept 2" if I could cast during the shooting phase, and use my bike or rhino or whatever to approach closer.

So you're saying once again chaos gets all the drawbacks and half the benefits for their wargear?

Yep. Definitely playing counts-as SW instead. It'll be nice, having an army with special rules rather than special penalties.

yea, none of those cheesy things which you mentioned break the game's mechanics. sure, they are good at what they do, but where does the rule "LOLZ REMOV EVARYTHANG!!!" exist except in vortex grenades? all the other super powerful units rely on game mechanics that have counters (reliable ones), or limits.

its slowed. I sympathize with the people who play space wolves, because this will generate a lot of hate for them, because the guy who wrote the codex is an idiot.

First of all- There is an Initiative test involved. This is not LOLZ REMOAV EVARYTHANG!!!! Its fail and be removed from play. Guard have 50% chance of survival, marines 66% and for marine commanders, higher. Most Eldar and DE units will only fail ona 6, which is fail for everyone.Sure Nidzilla, Crons and Tau will be taking it up th eass, but hey, Nidzilla kinda deserve it in my view, and both crons and Tau have been taking it in the ass since 5th ed came around. Second, there are counters in that most armies have anti psychic units or capabilities. You could try using them. As for precedents, like I said, Old Zogworts youre a squig power, and gift of chaos remove a model with no save as I recall. Just that JoTWW does it at longer range.

Like I said, its better to get on with it, and develop couinters to it, rather than mope about how cheesey and broken it is IMO.

Spellbound:

Well, actually what you can do is take a Jump Pack on your Chaos Lord or Chaos Sorcerer and completely ignore this Space Wolf psychic power. Speaking of ignoring this power, did you know what a Daemon Prince, Wings or no, is only removed on a 16d roll of 6? They're I5 and Monstrous Creatures. The sky ain't falling down.

The Gift of Chaos may only have a range of 6" and must be used at the start of the turn, but it can be used in close combat, which the Jaws of the World Wolf can be, affects everything with a T characteristic, can be used to place a Spawn model for free (which is good in 2/3 of games, and you don't have to place it in the 1/3 of games that are kill-points) and if you have the Mark of Tzeentch, it can be cast twice! And the model that can carry it will be better in combat than the Rune Priest. Even an Aspiring Sorcerer is able to defeat a Rune Priest in close combat.

I rather like the way this power gives Chaos Space Marine players a reason to take Jump Packs instead of Wings, because previously taking Wings gave you all of the benefits of Jump Packs (12" move, etc), with few drawbacks (not being able to fit in transports, etc).

I'm glad you're going to be playing 'counts-as' Space Wolves though, as more variety in armies can only be a good thing.

I think the point that people are getting at is that killing a big model on a 1/6 chance still represents far, far greater killing power than nearly any other.

Nearly any other is right: two Gifts of Chaos would be more likely to off a Daemon Prince than a Jaws of the World Wolf. All the more reason to take a Chaos Lord or a Chaos Sorcerer I guess. After all, isn't the argument for taking a Daemon Prince over these choices that a Chaos Sorcerer or Chaos Lord may be much more easily killed?