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Frazzled wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Hmmm...clamping down on BB Fansites...now clamping down on non-GW models arguably intended (certainly advertised) for the game....and the PC version released, generating new interest.

Perhaps this is part of a build up to them tackling the game once more, with a full release? Take control of it back, then big fanfare when you release it once more with a full set of models.

Things appear to be stabilising sales and profits wise, so they might be looking into enhanced support for the Specialist Range?

No. There is no necessary causal relationship between protecting their IP and providing further support.

Hence the speculative tone.

It just seems odd that they start clamping down on BB in particular all of a sudden. I mean, why now, and not a couple of months before the PC Version was released?

Kilkrazy is right. I think Impact , et all can make fantasy football games because they are small operations, so if they sell 1,000 of a mini then they can make a good living. In order for GW to pay for all of the overhead they have, they need to sell 15,000+(or even more) of that mini.....

And the Star Players are not TM, probably true, but they are copyrighted (as the whole game and rulebooks are). They have also released novels...so even if they are not trademarked they are copyrighted, and GW would have some protection.

I had mentioned somewhere in another forum that it may be because of the video game or a new planned release...which would be cool, I think GW needs to get back to secondary games for incoming gamers....and I want them back and done well.

But whatever the reason, if I PERSONALLY had created something, spent years and years building it and making it better, and then see others copy it, it would definitely make ME upset. Even if I had many lots and they were only making a small bit...(or bigger bit as they grow).

And what they are really saying, to me, is, hey, we know we dropped the ball, and other companies are doing this. but we don't want them MARKETING them for our game. Perfectly reasonable wish, i'd say....even if the implementation may be horrendous.

Call the lawyers !!! Miniatures companies make miniatures that could be used in GW games !!!!

What next ?? GW whining because other companies make Fantasy games?

Idiots !!!

Here's my take - GW barely supports Blood Bowl. The vast majority of the miniature range hasn't been updated since 1991. The boxed game itself still comes with the old ruleset. The new miniatures they've produced for the game are really nice, but don't make up for a near complete ignorance of a game that a small, but devoted, following keeps alive. As for complaints about the BB ruleset, it's one of the easiest GW games to play with a minimum of muss and fuss. It seems absolutely ridiculous to me that they want to start crying and moaning because someone is making a buck in a niche that they've long ignored and refuse to pay attention to.

That said, frankly, if GW wants to pull special characters from the game, fine. #1, there's enough copies of the LRB 6.0 out there with the special characters in it for the player base to take them as canon. #2, if special characters were truly an integral part of the game then this would sting a lot more, but frankly, IMHO special characters are icing on the cake. If GW wants to pull them, yeah, it would suck, but would the BB community survive? Yeah, probably so.

ProtoClone wrote:...the Old World...are trademarks of Games Workshop Ltd.

"The Old World" is a trademark? Really!? Bollocks.

Breotan wrote:Wait, wait wait... GW is threatening to pull the plug on a game they don't really support anyway? OMG! Is Mordheim next? o.O

My source says Tyranid Attack is next to get axed, followed by Doom of the Eldar.

gorgon wrote:

Breotan wrote:Wait, wait wait... GW is threatening to pull the plug on a game they don't really support anyway? OMG! Is Mordheim next? o.O

My source says Tyranid Attack is next to get axed, followed by Doom of the Eldar.

And after that, it's Bommerz over da Sulpha River and Battle for Armageddon.

The reason they're threatening has probably something to do with the lack of trademark. If it were trademarked, they wouldn't need this moronic gesture. They'd simply have their IP Department contact the offending companies and threaten legal action.

It's a boneheaded manoeuvre and, even though I do play many a GW game, I won't be fretting a bit on the day they go down in flames - the gaming universes and some systems are so well ingrained in gamers' minds that someone will pick up these lines and probably do a much better job of them.

If they withhold LRB6, everyone who is playing now will just use LRB5.
There are no GW run BB tourneys.
The only time we have to use GW figures is at a GW store.

I listen to a BB Podcast called Three Die Block. They use heroclix figures, SW minis, or whatever they can get ahold of.
I think BloodBowl will do just fine without GW.
My impression is that it has been growing without them. At least around Chicago/Indy.
There are at least 5-6 BB Tourneys that I know of in this area, including a two-day tourney at Adepticon.

Another thing to know.
The BloodBowl game is supposed to come out on XBox.
If you bought the Direct PC version, you will get Dark Elves as a free download.
If you buy it on XBox when it comes, you do not get Dark Elves. You have to buy it on XBox Live.

GW can do this effectively because house rules allowing players to use star players would never happen, would they.

lol

Living Rulebook.. pfft, I still use the rules from the box ta.

Hell tbh I'm thinking about going back to 2nd ed rules, I prefer the team set ups.

Seems an odd thing mind you, certainly agree it looks like a 'toys out the pram' reaction. Which is kinda sad from a games company.

Oh and Dark Elves eh, excellent, even if I have to pay for them, seems those three xbox games I pre-ordered yesterday will be well worth it. (Both my brothers are getting a copy for christmas for future 'Live' action.. and they'll like it gosh darn it!)

Well, a friend has minis for all the teams already.
When he gets the jones for a new one, he buys WHFB minis.
Our group just pick from his selection. Helps keep the mix good also. no all Orc leagues.
So I think you can do quite well without GW making BB figs.

At the Zlurpee Bowl in Indy this year, a guy used the evil dwarf puppets from Rackham as his Chaos Dwarf Team.
They were fantastic.
This was also the event where Impact Miniatures was selling.
Because at least half of the players had asked him to bring stuff to sell.

GW has lost control of the BB community and are now trying to smash it.
They realize that the gamers do not need them to keep the game going.
And they are pissy because of it.
I am sure they had hoped it would quietly die like Necromunda, Gorkamorka, and Mordheim.

Am I the only one thinking it's normal to not want other companies to make profit on your own games?
The threat is dumb and self-destructing but the intent is very normal and expected.

Platuan4th wrote:

gorgon wrote:

Breotan wrote:Wait, wait wait... GW is threatening to pull the plug on a game they don't really support anyway? OMG! Is Mordheim next? o.O

My source says Tyranid Attack is next to get axed, followed by Doom of the Eldar.

And after that, it's Bommerz over da Sulpha River and Battle for Armageddon.

ZOMG! What about Fury of Dracula and Trollz in the Pantry?! Will they be next?!

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

It's madness, I tell you! If they keep going down this path, the entirety of GAMES Workshop's product line will only be 2 or 3 games!

Hey, wait a minute...

I just wont play with the new rulebook.

Lord of battles wrote:I just wont play with the new rulebook.

QFT. Just continue playing with LRB 5.0 or whatever version you prefer.

Be careful if GW legal sends a C&D to themselves it will cause a black hole that will suck up the entire universe.*



*Fortunately, it will just be the 40k and Fantasy universe so no one will actually be harmed.

Tethyr13 wrote:And the Star Players are not TM, probably true, but they are copyrighted (as the whole game and rulebooks are). They have also released novels...so even if they are not trademarked they are copyrighted, and GW would have some protection.

You can't copyright a name (seriously, just type in "copyright" into Google, it is easy to check. You also can't copyright an idea, so you can't even copyright a player's background. You can copyright the exact text of their background, and that covers any obvious derivatives of that text, but still not the idea behind the text, so all you have to do is a thorough re-write from scratch and you are fine. If I want to crate a world set 40,000 years in the future in which a dying Emperor is the figurehead of a human Empire who battle Space Orcs (might not get away wth Orks), Space Elves (unlikely to get away with "Eldar"), Bio-skeletons, Bugs, Demon (Not Daemon) possessed marines (Maybe not "Space Marines"), GW can't touch me.

You can Trademark a name, but GW haven't for their Star Players. Now, on that basis, anyone is free to use that name. If people were breaking Trademarking rules, GW would send Cease & Desist letters. GW are perfectly within their rights to withdraw their own use of that name and anything else associated with that name. It is petty and childish, but they are well within their rights. Calling my above 41K or 50K would get me in trouble due to a deliberate attempt to trade on recognition of "40k" but they could not touch me if I called it Grimdark Battles.

Ozymandias wrote:Be careful if GW legal sends a C&D to themselves it will cause a black hole that will suck up the entire universe.*

*Fortunately, it will just be the 40k and Fantasy universe so no one will actually be harmed.

So we'll be left with WotR?

Oh, boy!

Until the JRRT folks get a wild hair up and yank the license out from under them or they C&D themselves for parallel concepts...

edit:eye kan speel guud

Kilkrazy wrote:At any rate, the point is that GW's continuing support is not necessary for Blood Bowl and actually seems to becoming detrimental to the fanbase's enjoyment of the game.

Quoted for truth.

The fact of the matter is that GW haven't really been doing anything for this game for a long time and it would have already died if not for the fans.

The problem is that GW will not sell a licence for the game to anyone for less than 1 Million pounds which is basically "...no, but everyone has their price...".




Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add more information to the sticky situation:

Quoted from Tom (Galak) on Ausbowl.com in response to the LRB6 caveat and GW pointing a gun at their own rules regarding other companies making (and marketing)star player figures.

"I dont think this happens anyway does it?"

Unfortunately .. bad timing yes it has.

Zenit Miniatures has been publically discussing on BBForo and TFF that they planned to make resin miniatures to cover all the star players in Blood Bowl. These happened within the last two weeks.

So my best bet is this caveat is two folks

1) Someone from GW saw that declaration from Zenit. (I've talked to them and while the response included multiple well deserved curses to GW .. they appear to understand the situation) In his own words: "I guess GW has no way of sueing a company that makes a figure on an elf holding a ball, so, to prevent people from creating these figures, they threaten the audience with erasing things from the LRB6 so these companies have no customers.... "

2) I know there are some at GW that feel that by me being on the BBRC that I've been manipulating the rules to add more star players so that Impact! can swoop in and make money by producing figures for them. Truth to be told I already have our production schedule for next 2010 and hadn't planned on any new figures that targeted any other games Stars. We need to get the Timberline Elves finished ... we have some ideas for some new Samhaino Hunters which I'm very excited about ... we have greens in house for new Night Elf Hunters and Strikers for our Elfball team ... I need to get the rules for Boulder Brawl (fun concept) finished and we have figures bring two of Matt Dixon's babes to life. Please note ... no where in that was a master plan to produce BB stars based on my evil manipulations of the BBRC and the LRB ... sigh. Why is that ... because my business partners agreed a long time ago that to do such a thing while I was a BBRC members would be a wrong thing to do ... and I still maintain that ... even if GW has trouble believing that some gamers doing business still have souls ... I know we at Impact! do and plan to keeping them for a while.

===

So my best guess is that they said this because of what they read for one and what their monolopistic paranoia thought was happening for a second.

Galak

And a second post as to Galak's well reasoned response to the caveat.

also wanted to post my response to the email back to GW.

Quote::
The star players are an important part of the overall balance of the inducement system. With LRB 6.0 we spent a great deal of time creating stars to accomplish two things that LRB 5.0 did very poorly ... which was an unequal amount of stars per each team and an unequal pricing of stars for the teams. LRB 6.0 gives each team 6 star players to work with and across a range of prices. GW wanted a PBBL system for Blood Bowl ... this was an important component to get there. ... ... My bigger urging would be that given what GW charges for Star Players for Blood Bowl ... instead of seeing this as a liability as you have presented above ... I would more suggest this is an easy opportunity for GW to make some easy cash with one off figures. Why they spent the money to remake Griff and Zug when there were stars that needed figures has always escaped me. As has the fact that two of the most popular star figures (Ramtut and Zara) have existing moulds at GW ... have been listed in the catalogue for over a year ... and are still not available for sale.

@Fifty: GW can't nail you for using the names Space Marines or Eldar, either, considering both names are from outside sources predating GW.

With the JRRT deal, maybe GW *can* sue for "Eldar"...

I thought JRRT called them the "Eldarin"? Or am I thinking of another fantasy author?

JRRT uses "Eldar" exactly as GW later does.

IIRC, Eldarin is what the Eldar speak.

Huh.

Duh. That's what I was thinking of. The have a funny accented 'a' in the copy of the Silmarillion I have.

Then we've got the Valar, too.

Osbad wrote:Good job there's heresy miniatures:

http://www.heresyminiatures.com/deathball.htm

and Impact Miniatures:

http://www.impactminiatures.com/index.php?option=elfballboards

Who needs GW? Stuff 'em I say...

Dont forget GridIron

www.shadowforge.com.au

Fifty wrote:

Tethyr13 wrote:And the Star Players are not TM, probably true, but they are copyrighted (as the whole game and rulebooks are). They have also released novels...so even if they are not trademarked they are copyrighted, and GW would have some protection.

You can't copyright a name (seriously, just type in "copyright" into Google, it is easy to check. You also can't copyright an idea, so you can't even copyright a player's background. You can copyright the exact text of their background, and that covers any obvious derivatives of that text, but still not the idea behind the text, so all you have to do is a thorough re-write from scratch and you are fine. If I want to crate a world set 40,000 years in the future in which a dying Emperor is the figurehead of a human Empire who battle Space Orcs (might not get away wth Orks), Space Elves (unlikely to get away with "Eldar"), Bio-skeletons, Bugs, Demon (Not Daemon) possessed marines (Maybe not "Space Marines"), GW can't touch me.

You can Trademark a name, but GW haven't for their Star Players. Now, on that basis, anyone is free to use that name. If people were breaking Trademarking rules, GW would send Cease & Desist letters. GW are perfectly within their rights to withdraw their own use of that name and anything else associated with that name. It is petty and childish, but they are well within their rights. Calling my above 41K or 50K would get me in trouble due to a deliberate attempt to trade on recognition of "40k" but they could not touch me if I called it Grimdark Battles.

QFT. It is impossible to copyright an *idea*. This means it is impossible to copyright a specific rules mechanic or even set of mechanics. The actual wording of those mechanics/rules is copyright, but not the idea behind them. And this has been tested specifically with GW and the NetEpic project which is essentially a rewording and tidy up of the original Epic/Space Marine rules published by fans over the internet (check it out for yourselves at: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/index.cgi?act=ST;f=14;t=16938). This has been run by GW legal and its kosher. It has also been tested with the OSRIC project - which is a rewriting of the 1st edition of AD&D. If GW yank the BB community chain too hard, then there's nothing GW can do to stop the BB-playing community doing the same themselves. If someone cared enough and was prepared to put in the time and effort. Which seeing as how so many people *really* love BB to an unhealthy degree I could easily believe!

GW are grasping at smoke with this one and are playing a desparate hand. Ultimately they are merely a convenience, not a necessity to the game and are playing a toxic mix of brinkmanship and "the emperor's new clothes".

Personally I'd say "stuff 'em" and would recommend anyone to buy the new independent Sci-fi and fantasy magazine "The Ancible" (http://www.the-ancible.com) For less than the cost of WD you get a magazine delivered to your door full of reviews, bat reps and pictures of all the fantasy and sci-fi games out there. Much more interesting than being force fed the monotonous GW-only diet that many survive on!