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An embarked squad can fire from inside a shaken or stunned transport, right?

Even if the answer is no isn't not that big a deal in regards to the comparison since the same applies to the rhino plus the chimerooh has an extra point on the front armor.

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Green Blow Fly:

Nope, see the rules. As I pointed out both squads can then pile out of their transports and shoot, in which case the Space Marines are far better protected than the Veterans, and as someone else pointed out the Chimera only gains that point of front armour at the expense of side armour - the Rhino is actually the better assault vehicles.

I still disagree with you here. Sure the Marines are more robust out in the open but by smart placement of the chimerooh you can typically screen the troopers.

G

Sure, you could screen the Veterans with the Chimera, but then you'll lose out on their firepower. Even though the three weapon specialists could stand in the open while the rest hide behind the Chimera, you'd still have (nearly) the entire length of the Chimera subtracted from your effective range because the only access is in the rear of the vehicle, unlike Rhinos which were practically made to be escaped with three access points.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I still disagree with you here. Sure the Marines are more robust out in the open but by smart placement of the chimerooh you can typically screen the troopers.

G

You've still only got 12 front armor. Anything less than 13 isn't something to brag about. Its just a nice bonus. Plus that Chimera is pricy compared to a Rhino. You're basically paying 20 more points to get a vehicle with an extra gun and armor that's extremely vulnerable to out flanking and deep strike and isn't that hard to pop anyway.

POINT BEING: Comparing Tacticals and Veterans based on their transports is silly.

Don't forget filled with squishy Veterans.

[joke]Silly Imperial Guard, the bubble-wrap is supposed to go on the outside![/joke]

I guess you don't understand what I meant by placement of the chimerooh. Oh well that's okay you probably are more drawn to the narrative aspect of the hobby.

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Lord Solar Plexus wrote:I personally would take Veterans over Tacticals every day of the week. Your armour and toughness mean nothing when you are hit by a battlecannon or plasmagun, and I get more models, both footsloggers and vehicles most likely. A handful of Marines is simply no threat. Sit on your objective all day long if you like, that's a considerable investment that isn't actively contributing to the fight. It is much much better to be aggressive and get some offensive potential than to have no other option but to sit back in some nice real estate.

That first point actually works against you. Why would you spend a Battlecannon on Veterans when they are so readily able to die from small arms. A Tactical Squad on the other hand is not going to be so impressed by anti-infantry, so your opponent has to spend a Battlecannon on them instead of killing the other Rhinos, and even then they have Cover Saves.

As for your more bodies: a Space Marine Tactical Squad is 205-230 points. An equiped Veteran Squad is 155-185 points. The difference is about a Chimera. So, for every two Tactical Squads you can almost have another Veteran Squad, or at most one without any equipment.

For your third point (not actively in the fight), you are dead wrong. If nothing else, they are holding the objective, which is the objective. If you are smart, you'll actually be firing your weapons. The 5 point Plasma Cannon is a blessing, and 8 Bolters at 24" every turn for the entire game will cause some damage. The Tactical Squad can fight while sitting on an objective; a 24" range is not small when people are actively coming towards you. While the Veterans can pretend to be shooting from their objective, S3 AP- is considerably less frightening than S4 AP5, and their special weapons either lack range or power. No, 3 Plasma Gun shots are not going to make up for the rest of the squads lack of damage, especially if they have cover. At maximum range, Tactical Squads have better shooting than Veterans.

EDIT: Greenblowfly, you are able to place the Chimera so that it protects the Veterans from all sides? If you can place a single Chimera so that I am unable to retaliate with anything, then I am an idiot. However, you've now exposed your juicy side armor, so you save the Veterans but lose the Chimera. If I do meet the requirements for being an idiot in the circumstance, then it is likely there is nothing of value on that corner of the board so the Veterans are also effectively taken out of the game.

Generally you only have to protect the vets from the opposite side of the table as most players don't outflank with ordnance or heavy weapons.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Generally you only have to protect the vets from the opposite side of the table as most players don't outflank with ordnance or heavy weapons.

G

So I'm just going to leave, say, my Predator on a side of the board with no support? Either that side of the board has nothing useful on it, so I thank you for spending a scoring unit where it can't help, or this is a KP game and there is a Defiler sitting next to that Predator. "Any plan that relies on your opponent's stupidity has failed before it is even enacted." And it doesn't take ordnance or heavy weapons to deal with Veterans; just ask my Noise Marines.

I've given some thought to this.

I don't think you ever want to use tac marines as they are being used in this example. I think the real debate should be between a ten man trimelta vet squad in a Chimera w/dozer blades and a set of 5 Tac marines with no wargear in a Razorback w/dozer blades.

In that comparison, the Melta Vets are more expensive , but make up for it by being able to melta things, and sitting in a tougher armored vehicle, but fall behind again due to morale issues.

Thus, in my view, tac marines are the superior choice, 5 deep in a razorback.

I think you also failed to understand my point and I dont feel like doing a text diagram at hte moment. The Predator quote was awesome sauce though.

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Kirasu wrote:Tacticals are one of the weakest firepower units in the SM book where as Veterans are one of the highest

I have to completely disagree with you. I take 4-6 tac. squads with either rhinos or razorbacks at 1850-2000 pts. They form the backbone of my marine army. They are the most flexable troop choice in the game. I have the option to combat squad some of them and leave the heavy weapons sitting on an objective while my powerfist and assault weapon moves up in a vehicle.

Vets are basically a suicide unit. They have the weapons options to get the job done right on the first try, and they'd better get it on the first try because they get mauled right after they shoot the first time. I have a lot more fear of facing IG platoons than IG armies with 6 squads of vets.

Kirasu wrote:6 Meltas for 200 points or 1 melta + power fist for 200 points.. Hm hard choice there really

Like I said before, they will probably nuke the hell out of something the first turn they shoot, b ut then they are toast. Vets have zero survivability and will get run down by anything but a firewarrior and shot up by literally anything in the game. T4 and a 3+ save is nothing to laugh at.

Kirasu wrote:I wish Sms only had 1+ troops as their minimum so I could only ever have take 1 tactical.. keep it in reserve and use it for objectives

Without vulkan theyre awful and even with him they're subpar

Why keep a unit that comes with a free missile launcher in reserve? Might as well sit it on an objective and start taking out light armor from turn one. Combat squad it and send the rest out after something else. Vulkan and meltas/flamers are nice but a tac. squad by no means depends on having Vulkan in the army. I've never used Vulkan and had plenty of success with my marines.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Generally you only have to protect the vets from the opposite side of the table as most players don't outflank with ordnance or heavy weapons.

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One of my favorite tactics is to outflank with my tau pathfinders (w/railrifles) and play with rear armor and back units. Great for popping most tanks, dreads, and ork kannons.

If tau players aren't outflanking with their pathfinders and kroot, they aren't playing right IMO.

40kenthusiast wrote:In that comparison, the Melta Vets are more expensive , but make up for it by being able to melta things, and sitting in a tougher armored vehicle, but fall behind again due to morale issues.

I'm genuinely curious why people are pegging morale as a key issue when they're inside an AV12 transport and Marine leadership is only 1 higher? IG and Tac Marines are for all intents and purposes identical until they are gotten out of their transports, except that Vets have more special weapons and heavy weapons inside an AV12 carrier as opposed to 11.

One thing to remember is that IG can make any of their infantry squads "Hardened Fighters" for +15 points per unit. so you could make your veterans ws 4 for +15 pts.

I dont think that is worth it. It is however another example of one of the many options IG vets get compared to tacticals.

G

I think that's probably the best comparison you can make. IG are a mediocre unit with a plethora of options to specialize and become superior at a single task.

Tac squads are a solid unit with no options to do much of anything beyond their cookie cutter mold.

sourclams wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:In that comparison, the Melta Vets are more expensive , but make up for it by being able to melta things, and sitting in a tougher armored vehicle, but fall behind again due to morale issues.

I'm genuinely curious why people are pegging morale as a key issue when they're inside an AV12 transport and Marine leadership is only 1 higher? IG and Tac Marines are for all intents and purposes identical until they are gotten out of their transports, except that Vets have more special weapons and heavy weapons inside an AV12 carrier as opposed to 11.

And They Shall Know No Fear. I don't like Chimeras more than Rhinos, defense wise. AV12 Front is cool, but Chimeras have such long sides any amount of tilt will expose more side armor than front. Yes, you can box all your Chimeras together, but then you are waaay more vulnerable to (ordnance) blast weapons. They will be exposed.

Also, Imperial Fist you are a codex edition behind. The Imperial Guard were updated, what? 8 months ago or something?

I consider Chimeras to be better defensively than Rhinos for the start of the game, about equal in the midgame, and generally worse afterwards. Once the battle lines shift, it becomes pretty easy to get someone on those nice wide flanks and exploit the AV 10 side armor. However, the Chimera's AV 12 front armor provides superior protection during the initial barrage, and is especially useful against "alpha strike" armies.

Imperial Fist wrote:One thing to remember is that IG can make any of their infantry squads "Hardened Fighters" for +15 points per unit. so you could make your veterans ws 4 for +15 pts.

this was in the old codex...these options are gone now.....

I think that sourclams summed it up well. I am by no means against tactical Marines or think they don't serve a useful purpose. They are pretty good at holding an objective if you can get them in cover and use the rhino as a shield. I think they work best when pillboxing. To be honest they were never a top unit but more effective back when you didn't have to take ten for the heavy weapon and special weapon. Small las/plas squads caught a lot of flak though so I guess this lead to where we are now. I play BA, we can take assault squads as a troop choice but I still prefer tactical squads for the various reasons listed here. That all said I think the new vets brought a lot more to their respective race as compared to the new tactical Marines.

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Lets make the tactical squad better, lets say we buy 10 tactical marines and give it a basic razorback. We use combat squads to keep a missle launcher at home, we keep the free flamer and the twin-linked heavy bolter.

Now the tactical squad while 55 points more expensive, is a decent anti-tank weapon and an excellent anti-infantry unit.

Or you can go the meltagun route give the serg a combi-meltagun give the squad a drop pod use combat squads to shoot at two vehicles, add in vulkan for a reroll, leave the combi-melta with the multi-melta. Next turn you have a multi-melta and a moving meltagun in enemy territory. If you have 2 of these units you have 4 squads of accruate melta's in enemy territory on turn 2, not to mention the 4 meltagun shots you have on the first turn.

The tactical squad is better then most people give it credit, regular marines are waiting to be exploited.

I think you should be comparing Tactical Marines with Storm Troopers, seeing a bolter fire can darn near tear through vets.

You would then be comparing one of the better units in the IG codex to one of the absolutely worst.

Exactly.

G

They cost significantly more points, and aren't any more survivable.

I'd need the reasoning behind this. AV12 is better than AV10. If you can keep the AV12 pointed at the shooters, then the Chimera is more survivable.

At the very least, it seems to me that a Chimera is more survivable in the hands of better players.

Also, while the Chimera is more expensive, it's got a lot to recommend it besides front AV12. It's also got 5 firing points (which synergizes with the many special weapons of Vets), it's got vastly more firepower than a Rhino (more even than a base Razorback), and it carries 12 models.

the Rhino is actually the better assault vehicles

I don't know about "better." It's a very bare bones option. It's extremely cheap, and does virtually nothing besides get Marines around the table. It's certainly efficient.

But then again, Marines are not especially useful when delivered by a Rhino, they can't take two special weapons, much less the three that Vets can.

Also, since your argument seems to be based on points efficiency, I'd point out that the Vets are bringing more BS4 special weapons, for about half the price. There's just no comparison in terms of efficiency there. The 20 extra points is nothing compared to more BS4 firepower for half the price.

So I'm just going to leave, say, my Predator on a side of the board with no support?

This debate has expanded into the transports, and now the armies in general...

So, that being the case, let's not forget these cheap Vets mean more points for Russes, Medusas, Manticores, etc.

As far as this screening dance, everyone's right. Or wrong. It's not like you can screen the Vets every single time, but still get the shooting you want. You can't always screen them in such a way that they can't be assaulted. Etc. That's why there are 3-5 Chimeras full of them, some of them will get smoked.

But, that said, if you're playing smart, you'll take opportunities to do this sort of screening. It will work from time to time.

For example, maybe you've not left the Predator alone, but the IG player has decided to flank aggressively to that side, has just unloaded two Manticore barrages on your line, and the Predator has become alone. The IG player sees that he can drop his payload, screen with his Chimeras, etc.

It's just not that hard when you're attacking a flank to screen the Vets with their own transport. What's hard about it, is screening them from mobile units. A gunline is easy to anticipate. A HFlamer Landspeeder can still ruin the Vets' day.

At the end of the day, it's not that being able to screen the Vets as they attack an isolated unit is the plan, it's more than it's a manifestation of the plan working. Sure, you might be able to stop it... But if you can, it's probably because you're the better player, not because there's a simple foolproof way to not let it happen (or to make it happen).

Phryxis wrote:

I'd need the reasoning behind this. AV12 is better than AV10. If you can keep the AV12 pointed at the shooters, then the Chimera is more survivable.

At the very least, it seems to me that a Chimera is more survivable in the hands of better players.

Also, while the Chimera is more expensive, it's got a lot to recommend it besides front AV12. It's also got 5 firing points (which synergizes with the many special weapons of Vets), it's got vastly more firepower than a Rhino (more even than a base Razorback), and it carries 12 models.

I'm saying AV12 isn't that much better than AV11 from the start. Since most armies will be packing melta's and lascannons, neither AV11 or 12 is going to help you much. Baring a miss, the lascanon only needs to roll a 3 to glance, and a 4, 5, or 6, to penetrate. That's 2/3 of a D6 resulting in damage. Melta is even worse. At 24" the melta only needs 3 to glance and 4, 5, 6 to penetrate (melta is AP1, so its strength against vehicles is always gonna be 9). At 12" its impossible to survive. The player would have to roll snake eyes not to glance. The absolute worse is that lascanons have 48" range. Its pretty easy to catch side armor with a shot when you can shoot clear across the board. Krak missiles, and autocanons would get the job done too.

The point is touting AV12 as being "so much better" than AV11 is silly. Its not that much better. You'd need a bad roll not to penetrate, and a really bad roll not to glance. 12 is certainly a bonus, don't get me wrong. It's gonna be a huge addition at the start of the game when everyone is facing off, but Chimera's have a long profile, and worse side armor. Hitting the flanks of a AV10 vehicle with a long profile is a piece of pie once the chaos has ensued. The Chimera isn't better than a Rhino. Considering the distribution of armor, points cost, and their respective armaments, I'd put them equal. They both get the job done. They get the troops where they need to go. The Chimera gets them there easier but then its kind of screwed. The Rhino might not have as easy a time, but its more survivable once the armies start spreading across the board because of that extra point of side armor (but again, AV10-12 isn't really much to talk about. Popping them is easy). Anything AV less than 13 isn't really good as much as it is an improvement in hoping the shooter gets a bad roll.

LordofHats wrote:
I'm saying AV12 isn't that much better than AV11 from the start. Since most armies will be packing melta's and lascannons, neither AV11 or 12 is going to help you much.

AV12 is going to ignore 16.6% more firepower than AV11 will for any weapon S7 or higher. This is the same difference as Terminator armor versus Power armor, or S4 assaulting T4 versus S4 assaulting T5.

The point is touting AV12 as being "so much better" than AV11 is silly. Its not that much better.

If 6e Space Marines retcon Land Raiders into being AV13 all around, would you say that the older version isn't "so much better"?

You'd need a bad roll not to penetrate, and a really bad roll not to glance.

If this were true, then Space Marine players would rarely take casualties. A BS4 lascannon has less than a 50% chance of getting a damage table result against a Chimera.

Hitting the flanks of a AV10 vehicle with a long profile is a piece of pie once the chaos has ensued. The Chimera isn't better than a Rhino. Considering the distribution of armor, points cost, and their respective armaments, I'd put them equal. They both get the job done. They get the troops where they need to go. The Chimera gets them there easier but then its kind of screwed. The Rhino might not have as easy a time, but its more survivable once the armies start spreading across the board because of that extra point of side armor (but again, AV10-12 isn't really much to talk about. Popping them is easy).

My experience as a Guard player says you're wrong. In general my Chimera wall is rarely vulnerable to side shots, and opponents are stuck with a hard choice of dedicating significant firepower to breaking my mech infantry or neutralizing the gun platform vehicles that are hanging out on my table edge.

Anything AV less than 13 isn't really good as much as it is an improvement in hoping the shooter gets a bad roll.

This is heuristic thinking that isn't backed up by simple math.

Let's throw a squad of Chaos Space Marines into the mix, they are definitely a better choice than tacticals.

G