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Made in us
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Robot Cat






T-county

I'd agree with the no plasma, because fluff wise they have been doing this for awhile and its just the surviving guys. They would have rolled a "one" by now for sure
   
Made in gb
Wing Commander





Kent, UK

This is sounding to be an amazing army that you're going for here, I can't wait till it gets going.

With what you were saying about the Mantis Warriors just starting to "rebuild", as it takes a few years for full Astartes to be battle ready (as I understand it) maybe you're force would look good with some Tac squads but a few Guard units too that have been side-tracked to aid the MW until they are back to strength?

Just a thought

"In the Grim Darkness of the far future; there is only countless Requisition Forms, filled in Triplicate."

 
   
Made in gb
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader






UK

Hi, if you are planning on using a dread maybe you'd like to check out stalktank in the gallery by davetaylor! It'd suit your purposes well and avoid using the regular Dread style miniatures!

Hope it is suitable for your purposes!

   
Made in gb
Wing Commander





Kent, UK

Had an after thought about my idea, if you went with the Guard 'helpers' it would make sense to fluff wise to have them as an Airmobile unit, moving in after the immediate LZ has been cleared by the MW.

Sorry for threadjacking

"In the Grim Darkness of the far future; there is only countless Requisition Forms, filled in Triplicate."

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Madison, WI

Wow, a giant mechanized praying mantis! I could see something like that as a venerable or iron clad dread with wings that "act" like the drop pod. Be a good vehicle for what's left of the chapter master... (assuming he's still around... hadn't thought that far ahead).

Shall I point out at this time how insanely beyond my abilities that is???

Nice suggestion though... wayyy cool.



The Guard "helpers" idea is kind of a neat one, but can that be done legally? You're right... it would be very fluffy and is pretty logical.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/21 17:41:52


   
Made in us
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Robot Cat






T-county

LOL all I can picture is a giant robot Zorak!
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Madison, WI

Don't you DARE go there!!!

*snicker*

   
Made in pe
Never Forget Isstvan!





The Netherlands

What about instead of Imperial Guard helpers you have the Chapter Serves? These are servants who work for the Chapter, you know control the ships, arm the turrets, write everything down. Many of them are aspirant Marines who didn't make their training/transformation but are still alive to serve the chapter.

Bits Blitz - the place to be for all your bits needs!

Too much sanity may be madness - world building through digital sculpting.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Madison, WI

Couple of rather important P & M questions for you guys.

Multiple people have suggested using battle damage and scavenged equipment for field repairs to represent the wear and tear on the MW's surviving crusader units. I think these are great ideas, but they do pose some problems...

1. As to battle damage. As Solar_Lion has already pointed out, soldiers lives depend on the quality and repair of their equipment. I'm related to 3 current soldiers and know this to be true from their perspectives. So why would severe battle damage be allowed to exist on your personal armor for any period of time (like a 100 year campaign)... many of us add battle damage to our models, and it looks great... but a marine would keep his armor and weapons it top condition, wouldn't he? So how do we rationalize all this battle damage? I know it's kind of a nit-picky question, but by now you guys know that the "why of it" is very important to me. Is it a lack of resources? Might be for the MW's but certainly not other chapters... Do they not know how to repair the armor, buff out the scratches, fill in the gaps? Seems a bit preposterous... but I'm open to suggestion. Would the MW's increased recovery/repair ability alter this in any way... or would they be as handicapped as everyone else? Or would there only be recent battle damage visible that had not been repaired yet?

2. When considering using chaos marine equipment to repair damaged MW equipment... as no marine in their right mind would ever wear a chaos insignia or symbol, we must assume (as suggested) that they would remove the existing symbology. Once that's done... is there any difference between the chaos stuff and normal equipment? I'm just wondering if chaos armor or weapons without the insignia is just basically normal marine stuff... in which case what's the point of making an effort to use chaos bits in the conversions?

3. If there is a compelling reason to use chaos bits... would they have re-painted it to match their armor (they must have green paint), or would they have left it au-naturale as a trophy and a slap-in-the-face to the Astral Claws?

4. Having now returned and with the reconstruction of the chapter under weigh... would they keep the battle damage and replaced parts as proof of their ordeal, or would these things be "put right" by whatever part of the Imperial support net that does such things.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/21 20:19:15


   
Made in nz
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin






Whangarei , New Zealand

If you go the route of using the cannoness as an actual cannoness from the witch hunter codex then you are able to use Inquisitorial stormtroopers as troop choices, these could be painted to represent your freshly inducted guard on their way to full brotherhood, plus they get carapace armour as opposed to flack and you can give their sergeants a ton of different gear from the witch hunter armoury so there is opportunity for conversion AND its legal.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I tend to glue metal models with a combination of BSI cyanoacrylate and my tears of frustration.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Madison, WI

All-right Blackhand you've got me convinced... will pick up that codex next pay day. Cool idea... and my scout percentage could be a bit smaller because the guard troops could help "cover" that aspect to a degree (which is probably more consistent with the "how tough it is to become a marine" fluff). I might eliminate the tac squads all together and adjust the fluff to say they'd been totally absorbed into the specialist & elite units... necessitating the immediate recall of the Mantis Warriors (in game terms... no troops).

I thought I'd heard a rumor that they were going to ki-bosh the whole allies thing completely.... hate to put in all this work to have it snuffed in the next Ed or worse... but some off-handed comment in a WD. Any thoughts?

   
Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot





Wyoming

you have to have at least 2 troops from the Space Marines Codex.

As far as rumors in GW go, I take all of it with a grain of salt (personally I don't think the WH are going to be redone anytime soon).

In regards to your why battle damage question, I would argue two things. 1) mostly when we paint models it is not to be the pristine, Just got done fixing my armor route (although some people do this), we paint them to look as they would in the middle of the fight. Thats why I have battle damage on my models.
   
Made in nz
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin






Whangarei , New Zealand

LOL, please beleive that I am not in any way a GW pimp just trying to put up ideas!
As to the allies being dropped I have no idea, in the end I have trouble beleiving that GW would axe two entire armies from 40k and as both inquisition arms can not function in their pure forms they kind of need the allies rule.
I am highly invested in this as well, owning a GK force and an IG force which I mix together a lot when making lists but I have decided to just keep doing my thing and worry about a codex change when and IF I hear it is on the way. Sorry for the wall of text just trying to answer a slightly unanswerable question

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/21 21:03:16


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I tend to glue metal models with a combination of BSI cyanoacrylate and my tears of frustration.
 
   
Made in us
Kinebrach-Knobbling Xeno Interrogator




The Emperor's Right Hand

I'm sure Marines are fully capable of doing minor battlefield repairs, but things such as wax/paint/varnish may not be deemed as important a focus. Your Warriors' could have a scuffed/tarnished appearance but still be completely battle ready.

I suppose it would be the job of a Tech-marine to reconsecrate the chaos armour? Since most CSM are a good deal older than current SM their armour would most likely be from earlier models (mk 4, 5, 6).

I could see your Vanguard Assault Squad keeping the original chaos colors as trophies, seeing as they fulfill a kind of hunter/predator role. This might also be possible for your Tranquility Snipers, although it may defeat their ability to be camouflaged.

New Marines would be given newer armour, but I could see most of the veterans retaining their kill trophies and workable battle-field repairs as a point of pride, to show that they toiled for their forgiveness.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/21 21:14:42


Für Mein Gott-Kaiser Ich Den Krieg Ziehen

My Culexus/Inquisitor/Imperial Guard Fan-fic

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Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge






1. I agree with you about them maintaining their armor. I just read Horus Rising and it struck me that after EVERY engagement, they buff out their armor and have the servitors take care of the very bad damage. Now assuming they are low on servitors, they must do the repairs themselves. Considering that they probably have to spend MORE time doing repairs, I would actually say that they are very good at repairs on an individual level. You might do a bit of dust to show the grime from that current mission (probably only light dusting). But I think their armor would be in good condition. I'm sure they would have green paint. Maybe do some paint in slightly different shades to show them painting with different batches. Or separate pieces in slightly different shades.

2. I think they shouldn't use ANY Chaos equipment. If I was serving a penitent crusade, I wouldn't even think of pretending to dabble with anything Chaos related. Even though Chaos equipment is essentially old Imperial stuff, it has seen years of Chaos use. I would assume the ruinous powers would slowly permeate the items, even pieces of armor. I think filling down the Chaos symbols and adding Imperial iconography also wouldn't cut it. I see it like putting the Nazi symbol on the crate that held the Arc of the Covenant (a-la Indiana Jones).

3. IF you decide that they would re-use Chaos, I think they would be so thorough about repairing, cleansing, painting etc. that it would be indistinguishable from normal Imperial issue. Modeling-wise, I don't think it would be worth doing. Or, maybe show picked up pieces of armor strapped to them that they plan on fixing up later.

Example: A marine modeled without a right gauntlet has a Chaos right gauntlet strapped to his back, showing that he wants to take it back and re-fit it.

4. I think they should be put right. If they have absolved themselves, they should now have full (if reluctant) Imperial material support. I think that even if you say they used re-fitted Chaos stuff, it was only permissible considering the situation. They would try to fix that as soon as possible.

- in progress
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Made in us
Kinebrach-Knobbling Xeno Interrogator




The Emperor's Right Hand

One question, what is the current strength of the chapter?

Assuming they were codex they started the Badab War with around 1000 marines. They probably lost many Marines during the war, then had to go on the Crusade...so...

Are we talking less than 500 marines left? Less than 200?

Für Mein Gott-Kaiser Ich Den Krieg Ziehen

My Culexus/Inquisitor/Imperial Guard Fan-fic

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/285271.page

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Madison, WI

If you don't count the new scouts... I've been kind of mentally operating on a nebulous figure of less than 300 marines. The more this thread has developed though, and I've been able to sharpen my focus with everyone's help... that number may be shrinking some to the lower 200 range. Marines are incredibly resilliant (sp?), so to really portray the chapter as crippled and on the brink of extinction... I think the numbers would have to be pretty low.

Holy crap! At that level I could almost model the entire chapter! Almost.... not sure I'm quite that motivated.

   
Made in pe
Never Forget Isstvan!





The Netherlands

Use the storm troopers to represent the Chapter Serves. I doubt the Imperial Guard would go along fighting with these Space Marines. It's just the chapter that was sent on exile, not the Imperial Guard.

Bits Blitz - the place to be for all your bits needs!

Too much sanity may be madness - world building through digital sculpting.
 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought






Perth, Australia

Random thoughts...

I know you are going Codex Space Marines - but counts as Space Wolves might be a good fit. With limited 1st company, you could assign them to units like Wolf Guard rather than their own units. Blood Claws might fit the retooling of the chapter to replace Tactical Squads. And you get Veteran Scouts. Not sure how to explain Berserk Charge, Head Strong and Counter Attack though...

Agree that I wouldn't expect excessive battle damage. I might expect a bit rougher around the edges though - with limited resources, keeping the paintwork pristine wouldn't be my first priority - and doesn't affect its effectiveness. In fact, it may add to their uniform/camouflage/ability to infiltrate the enemy (who also might not be concentrating on such things...)

There would be nothing stopping them painting their armour (or pieces of it) similar to the enemy if it gave them an advantage - just don't know how far you want to vary from the scheme in your first pictures...

Enough rambling from me


   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!





Green Bay, Wisconson

I agree with the Major.

Several points. Squad definition. With so few marines ( you mentioned 200 - 300) I'm not convinced that there would be a need nor practically to limiting your remaining forces to specific roles. I think more of the BT concept. Here’s why... the smaller the force the more flexible it needs to become. If an assault was required the decision to field as many assault troops as possible would require the chapter to pass out chainsword to anyone who can carry one the opposite in a siege with heavy weapons. This doesn't the whole force, there still has to be troops ( as with the siege idea ) to repel enemy troops from sallying out. History prove you cannot have all attack or defense. What it the limiting factor. Manpower.

Like you said maybe the dreads provide long range support in an assault while all hand are on deck for the assault. Whatever it take to accomplish the objective! I see the MW as a flexible, objective based veteran army, before the fast and violent. Look at the templar’s book, how they are crusade based. I think this is more where the MW are coming FROM.

Scavenge Items. Again I go back to the fundamentals. First and foremost they are Marines, They are the elite of the Imperium. I would stay away from Chaos items for two reasons. One they are already held in suspicion ( they will be under the eye of the Imperium ). The remainder of the chapter knows full well (as they were there) the crimes for which they were and perhaps still judged for. Second... they have a hatred for chaos , this was the source of their almost fall into damnation. They would consider this to be taboo and anyone using such equipment would be a painful reminder of their dishonor. Tight units police themselves. They would be more rigorous than most chapters. Even trophies would be handled in the most open and by the book manner. " To adopt the weapons and apparel of the enemy is to become the enemy."

The universe is a big place and other races material would not be so overlooked. That's why I was thinking the rare stuff. Dreads and terminator armor. I like the jet bike as bikes. Nice use of “ a different era” that will make your army unique looking. Suggestion” used stuff not “damaged stuff”. Stuff that looks warn and has been through the test. Lots of purity seals. Like a favorite weapon concept.

Up to 4 Cents now.

 
   
Made in pe
Never Forget Isstvan!





The Netherlands

Chaos items are used in the Imperium. The Space Wolves are famous for it, not just the 13th Company. Chaos weapons have been purified, so has a Chaos ship. The Ultramarines are probably the most famous fellows who use Chaos equipment, where do you think Marneus Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar come from?

Some equipment might be scavenged, purified and reused to replace lost equipment. You might model this by having lots of purity seals on certain pieces of equipment.

I guess that because of this Chaplains would also be more common, they would be needed to keep all the Marines pure. So perhaps a mandatory Chaplain HQ?

Bits Blitz - the place to be for all your bits needs!

Too much sanity may be madness - world building through digital sculpting.
 
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge






Even tho there is use of Chaos items, I don't think the Mantis are in a position to dabble. AND I doubt they would have the rigorous purification process needed.

- in progress
Easy Company Project Log 
   
Made in pe
Never Forget Isstvan!





The Netherlands

What exactly is this purification process?

But perhaps you are right on this, especially with an agent from the Inquisition watching them all the time.

I think for that reason alone that the Mantis Warriors would have more Chaplains, or at least have them present more!

Bits Blitz - the place to be for all your bits needs!

Too much sanity may be madness - world building through digital sculpting.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Madison, WI

Hmmmm.... so let me review. No, that will take too long, let me sum up.

So it looks like I probably need to get my hands on the witchhunters, space wolf and templar dex's to give things a good going over. Some for fluff, some for possible allies and some for shifting my dex if a new one is more appropriate.

There seems to be pretty solid concensus that the MW's surviving crusade armor would be in good working order, and while worn... would not be excessively damaged.

Opinions are more varied on the use of chaotic equipment. Giving everyone's opinions a good read-through again... I'm leaning toward not using the chaos equipment *at this stage* in the chapter's development. I could see necessary battlefield repairs using whatever they could get to keep the chapter equipped... but I suspect the would have very purpousfully and deliberately purged all non-standard equipment from their armories and equipment during their return voyage in order to give the best possible first impression when they arrived home and to avoid the appearance of taint. I also suspect that directive would have been suggested by the cannoness herself.

Malika2: Are chapter serves in the codex anywhere? I don't remember ever seeing them. Remember that my one main rule is that the army must be completely legal... no made up units (though counts-as is fine for me). Your chaplain point is a good one, they just add nothing from a gaming perspective. I'm not unwilling to take one... just seems like of a waste of points when compared with some of the other options.

Solar_lion: I can't argue with your logic... but it kinda sucks the charachter out of the chapter because it's unit/manpower distribution will be just like any other vanilla chapter, just fewer men. What I was trying to get at was that the Mantis Warriors had essentially over-specialized to the point of non-viability. I wasn't really their fault... the circustances dictated their moves if they were ever going to emerge alive. Perhaps that's why the Templars *are* the Templars and cruising the imperium in decent shape, and the Mantis Warriors had to be brought home for emergency repair. The Mantis warrior "model", heroic as it was, was unsustainable and was doomed to fail. Something that the chapter heirarchy will need to address during the rebuilding process.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/22 02:48:54


   
Made in pe
Never Forget Isstvan!





The Netherlands

Are chapter serves in the codex anywhere? I don't remember ever seeing them. Remember that my one main rule is that the army must be completely legal... no made up units (though counts-as is fine for me). Your chaplain point is a good one, they just add nothing from a gaming perspective. I'm not unwilling to take one... just seems like of a waste of points when compared with some of the other options.

They are not an official unit in the Codex, they only appear in the background, more info on them can be found here.

If you are using the Witchhunter Codex you could simply count them as Stormtroopers to also reflect that they have access to superior equipment due to the Chapter and higher skills due to the limited genetic modification.

I don't recommend getting the Black Templars Codex, it's 4th edition if I'm not mistaken, the Space Wolves list is more up to date.

Bits Blitz - the place to be for all your bits needs!

Too much sanity may be madness - world building through digital sculpting.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Madison, WI

Nope, you didn't... I was summarizing several folks posts. That rec came from a couple of others.

   
Made in pe
Never Forget Isstvan!





The Netherlands

What about the Blood Angels Codex? If I'm not mistaken it has assault squads as troops, or at least Death Company who can field close combat weapons. You could build a very elite close combat oriented army with it.

Bits Blitz - the place to be for all your bits needs!

Too much sanity may be madness - world building through digital sculpting.
 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






Indianapolis

Hey Gitsplitta, I think you may have some of your questions answered soon. Check this out.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/coming-soon/Legends-of-the-Space-Marines.html

Third from the bottom.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Madison, WI

OH .... hmmmm.... that might flush this whole project in one, giant, swirly go.

damn



   
Made in us
Kinebrach-Knobbling Xeno Interrogator




The Emperor's Right Hand

IceAngel wrote:Hey Gitsplitta, I think you may have some of your questions answered soon. Check this out.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/coming-soon/Legends-of-the-Space-Marines.html

Third from the bottom.


Wow, that could suck...C.S. Goto, the Destroyer of Fluff and coherent/entertaining book-writing authoring the return of the Mantis Warriors...

bummer


Für Mein Gott-Kaiser Ich Den Krieg Ziehen

My Culexus/Inquisitor/Imperial Guard Fan-fic

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/285271.page

 
   
 
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