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I'think balance is the best.... reading about this thread its true that chimeras are a bit OP, i'm that class of player that plays IG in a more traditional way lots of people backed un for a few leman russ, mixed with long range firing vets (i just glued vets with shotguns, so i still haven't used yet).... one question... if you make the "plasma barrage" from the open chimera..... does affect the overheating to the guys inside the vehicle? i suposse that yes, but maybe that's not clear...

Bookwrack wrote:
Also, considering how silly it was that in 4th edition effective lists generally minimized transports because they were such weak death traps, the increased mobility and discouragement of game-long static lines more tanks encourage should be perfectly acceptable. If you want to do mass of bodies, what's stopping you? The 'leafblower' is the current flavor of the month sweeping the 'net, but I'd like to see how it'd do against a pure foot-slogging IG list.

Hmm. Question: is part of the meching up craze that mechanized lists are seen as more convenient to play than horde lists, particularly within tournament time limits?

To a small extent, Backfire. I haven't got a full mechanised list but replace a few squads with a valkyrie and a couple of chimeras has meant that my games are normally properly finished in an evening now!

The most boring games I have played have been against non - boxed guard which take almost an hour to move and then they have to shoot. I love mech in all it's forms because there is nothing more funny than deepstriking Assault Marines with plasma pistols behind a line of chimeras and sucking on the gooey insides.

Chimeras are just cans waiting to be opened.

cosmic pixie wrote:The most boring games I have played have been against non - boxed guard which take almost an hour to move and then they have to shoot. I love mech in all it's forms because there is nothing more funny than deepstriking Assault Marines with plasma pistols behind a line of chimeras and sucking on the gooey insides.

Chimeras are just cans waiting to be opened.

100% true, but more than boring...annoying, even for the IG players are a fething hell JUST to deploy such quantities of infantry... and having that shooting rate its not rare that IG player forget to shoot something it happened me a lot...

I think there is definitely balance between Mech and Horde lists for IG and any other army. I am sure you can have an excellent and even match between an Armored Company and Gunline IG. What I think is important for Gunline is that they take Autocannons, because its one of the best heavy weapons they have.

Also, I'm surprised that you are not complaining about Valkyries/Vendettas and the potential for a full AirCav list, which I feel is stronger than the MechVet lists.

I've noticed that all the complants about the "Tin Can" or "Trooper Cooker" that is that most opposing players forget about them when writing up their lists.
SM and CSM can throw up a wall of AV 11 Rhinos, AV 14 with Land Raiders.
Now i'm not being critical here but are all the complants comming from SM players or some thing

Smashotron wrote:I think there is definitely balance between Mech and Horde lists for IG and any other army. I am sure you can have an excellent and even match between an Armored Company and Gunline IG. What I think is important for Gunline is that they take Autocannons, because its one of the best heavy weapons they have.

Also, I'm surprised that you are not complaining about Valkyries/Vendettas and the potential for a full AirCav list, which I feel is stronger than the MechVet lists.

No... it seems sweet, but i have seen how an AirCav works, and.... no, its more dangerous a MEC list, one of the worst things that you can do, no matter what kind of list you use, with the IG than scatter your forces, not to mention that the Chimera does not count as an unit in the table, meanwhile, Valks and "raged Sicilians" counts as fast attack choices, choices that, IMO are better taken profit if you deploy outflanking Sentinels or the new brand of Hellhound and their awesome variants.....

ChocolateGork wrote:But even mech regiments like DKOK actually have normal people

This made me laugh. I think you mean Armageddon Steel Legion. DKoK are normally thought of as Siege Guard with tons of infantry.

Platuan4th wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:But even mech regiments like DKOK actually have normal people

This made me laugh. I think you mean Armageddon Steel Legion. DKoK are normally thought of as Siege Guard with tons of infantry.

Except the Armageddon Steel Legion exclusively fields Armored Fist Platoons. Any foot infantry are PDF or Hive Militia--which aren't actually Steel Legion.

Chimeras are a must for IG players. Take many and often.

Massed IG infantry don't stand much chance around here where I play. Bubble wrap for artillery at best.

Mechanized sucks if you dont have a mechanized army..

All the happy people in this thread have them.. and the disgruntled do not.

I'd make a mech army but unfortunately its expensive and nearly all the GW vehicles look lame.. like the chimera.. valk is too big, rhino lol. The only vehicles that look cool to me are tau and eldar..

Also in my heart I am an infantry man.

I feel your pain OP the 5th ed damage table is too much.

Personally, i wish they'd included the FW autocannon Chimera as a legit choice. Not that two extra HBs is bad, but... I like how they look.

Note: I already have so many autocannons that four or five more won't matter.

If you don't like the GW vehicles use historical vehicle kits instead.

That's what I do.

What I ment was that, compared to how the other turret look, the autocannon one makes it look the most like an APC. ...

That and my local game club would drum me out of the club if I showed up with a SdKfz 251 that spilled IG across the map for the same reasons that I'm forbidden SdKfz 182 'Porche' style turrets on my Leman Russ Vanquishers. PzKpfw IV style armor skirting is however, an acceptable 'extra armor' upgrade.

Kanluwen wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:But even mech regiments like DKOK actually have normal people

This made me laugh. I think you mean Armageddon Steel Legion. DKoK are normally thought of as Siege Guard with tons of infantry.

Except the Armageddon Steel Legion exclusively fields Armored Fist Platoons. Any foot infantry are PDF or Hive Militia--which aren't actually Steel Legion.

Reading fail on your part, Kan. Original quote part I was responding about bolded and enlarged.

I played both Chimera heavy IG , and maxed out heavy weapon team IG.

I have to say having the option of leaving some infantry inside the Chimeras gives lots of needed room compared to if you leave them out... they clog up like 95% of deployment zone -_-

Kilkrazy wrote:If you don't like the GW vehicles use historical vehicle kits instead.

That's what I do.

What scale (you know those 1/48 or whatever) is appropriate for 40k?

1/72 IIRC is the best suited.

Shaman wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If you don't like the GW vehicles use historical vehicle kits instead.

That's what I do.

What scale (you know those 1/48 or whatever) is appropriate for 40k?

Useful article: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Scale_Model_Kits_for_40K

What you find is that the GW official models are very short and fat compared to real vehicles.

A 1/48 scale tank is the right length but too narrow. A 1/35 scale tank is the right width but too long.

I chose to use 1/35 vehicles they look the right size compared to the infantry figures -- even if they aren't -- and because there is a much better choice of kits available.

That said, there are some very nice 1/48 scale kits on the market and they are cheaper than 1/35. I don't think it would matter a lot as long as all the vehicles in the army were the same scale.

If you want to use aircraft kits, 1/48 is the best scale. Aircraft are so huge that a 1/35 scale kit will cover half the table. Also, the choice is much better in 1/48.

Ribon Fox wrote:I've noticed that all the complants about the "Tin Can" or "Trooper Cooker" that is that most opposing players forget about them when writing up their lists.
SM and CSM can throw up a wall of AV 11 Rhinos, AV 14 with Land Raiders.
Now i'm not being critical here but are all the complants comming from SM players or some thing

Not SM...DH here...so no...I cannot put up a wall of armor. (^_^)

Ribon Fox wrote:I've noticed that all the complants about the "Tin Can" or "Trooper Cooker" that is that most opposing players forget about them when writing up their lists.
SM and CSM can throw up a wall of AV 11 Rhinos, AV 14 with Land Raiders.
Now i'm not being critical here but are all the complants comming from SM players or some thing

QFT. This is the real reason you guys are upset, now that your precious Boltguns\Gauss Rifles\sluggas can't chew up infantry like you used to and you might have to field heavy weapons you're complaining that you have to put some thought into your lists.

I have three army lists for my Imperial Guard, all around a 1,000 - 1,200 points with the models I currently have. One is infantry based with a focus on Heavy Weapons and soon Sentinals for mobile support and I can tell you this is how you kill transport spam hands down. If you're a SM player then just build two Devastator Squads and work up two alternate lists. One list has the two Devastator Squads with extra bodies to soak up wounds, use this if you can:

1: Confidently establish a good field of fire for them.
2: Keep them reasonably protected.
3: Have about the same or close to number of SQUADS on the field as your opponent.

The third condition is key, the biggest weakness of Devastator Squads isn't their points. It's that you're pouring all of that firepower into one target at a time so it's important that you not get rushed by numbers.

The other list is a little more tricky, work your DS Marines into your Tac squads (I know! Different is scary!) this allows you to position your Heavy Weapons at multipule spots on the field increasing your chances of being positioned for a side armor shot, this also allows you to target more transports in a turn or open up on a squad that fell out of Chimera with Bolter and Frag Missle fire. You might not use these in half your games but when you're fighting a line of tin you'll be glad you have them ready.

GW site says that the Devastator Squad gives you 5 SMs and 8 HWs for $35 USD so the value looks like buying 1 or 2 Devastator Squads and pick up 1 Tactical Squad at the same price for more models and fewer extra HW laying around.

Look at that! for between $70-$105 USD I just ended your problem for most games between 1,000 and 1,500 points!

Two full dev squads with ML combat squaded will wreck most transports, their range also allows you to hit goey side armor. If you want to run an infantry army do it like that, and then have a crapload of plasma or flamers in your tacticals to deal with the spillage from the transports, plasma can also do light tank hunting ability if extra is needed.

AV 13 is gooy? Oh, wait, you mean on transports...

Eh, I'd be more concerned about that Leman Russ Executioner that's wiping out whole squads as it advances then what brand of Metal Boxes that the IG platoons are driving.

Smashotron wrote:I think there is definitely balance between Mech and Horde lists for IG and any other army. I am sure you can have an excellent and even match between an Armored Company and Gunline IG. What I think is important for Gunline is that they take Autocannons, because its one of the best heavy weapons they have.

Also, I'm surprised that you are not complaining about Valkyries/Vendettas and the potential for a full AirCav list, which I feel is stronger than the MechVet lists.

Unfortunately, in this case you are wrong. Air Cav is limited by the fact that you can only have three distinct units of them and an Air Cav list needs about six. So unlike a mechanized list that utilizes chimeras, which can overlap their sides and utilize cover to present a wall of AV12, the air cav transports are flying around in the open and are squadroned and there is half as many of them. So you're both much easier to destroy and can engage fewer targets in return.

Don't get me wrong, Vendettas are fantastic, but they are better off used non-squadroned and alongside more traditional mechanized elements.

Autocannons are available to all types of armies, be they gunline or mechanized. The best lists use a combination of both Veterans and Platoons. My mechanized (8 chimeras, 3 vendettas) 'Ard Boyz list has 9 autocannons.

I'm just not sure if 40K has the 'right' balance in terms of transports right now. I grant that they're much better and more sensible than they were in 4th, but the current trend of models just camping in transports leads me to believe that the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

Overall, I like the vehicle rules currently, they seem to be simple and work well (though I do lament my Big Shootas not being defensive weapons), but I also think transports tend to be a little too much a shield for the models inside. I realize that it's a game and no set of rules is going to be perfect, but honestly, if I've a bunch of Boyz riding round in the back of a Trukk and somebody turns a flame thrower onto them, I should lose some Boyz to it even if the Trukk doesn't blow up.

At the end of the day, it's this edition. I'm sure 6th will fix some things and unfix some other things, just like 5th.

Actually it's kind of interesting how the game changes when you need to suppress multiple small units in transports. Too many people concentrate their firepower like they would if they were shooting up infantry units that can be eroded. With multiple light-medium vehicles you should stop shooting as soon as you get a Shaken/Stunned result and move onto the next target.

It's actually easier to suppress a vehicle than it is to pin an infantry unit.

I think that the mobility that it provides large numbers of guardsmen throws people a bit. I think they expect lumbering masses of infantry and that tosses out some strategies.

You know how people hate to have to change plans or think.

MrGiggles wrote:I'm just not sure if 40K has the 'right' balance in terms of transports right now. I grant that they're much better and more sensible than they were in 4th, but the current trend of models just camping in transports leads me to believe that the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

About the only thing I'd consider changing about transports is making smoke give a 5+ cover save. And then I'd make the extra armor and dozer blade upgrades 5 points for all Imperial armies (and I guess the equivalent for Xenos, whatever).

It's the regular tanks that need more reform, as the current shooting limitations are brutal. There's a reason every codex has been introducing more ways to get around them (Power of the Machine Spirit, Lumbering Behemoth, Fast engines). Making the defensive weapons definition S5 is one way to do it, plus it would make heavy flamer sponsons usable. And speaking of sponsons, I think all tanks should have a rule that one sponson can fire at a different target than the rest of the tank.

... Lumbering Behemoth has been around long time, actually...

And I'd just like to see the Griffon able to fire and move again. The ability to fire and displace made it a lot more useful then the ability to reroll scatter for a barrage.