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BaronIveagh wrote:I think that the mobility that it provides large numbers of guardsmen throws people a bit. I think they expect lumbering masses of infantry and that tosses out some strategies.

You know how people hate to have to change plans or think.

QFT. It's sad that opponents don't build and play their armies to suit us.

The Chimera is one of those things that is way undercosted and very unjustified. Multi Laser + Hvy Flamer on a 12/10/10 ( I bleieve are the stats ) with 10 tropps to transport for 55 points is undercosted then add in 5 fire points then it becomes grossly undercosted. Many can say its fluffy but then why does the models fire points all have las guns coming out of them and in all prior editions that was all that could shoot from them?

Now take the vehicle and look at some of the rule changes from past ediitons. No longer does a clipping of a blast template get full strength to prevent side by side armor columns. No longer can you block the access door to trap models inside and kill them all if the vehicles pops. Also if the vehicle is destroyed in HtH they are protected from consolidation assaults.

In the first half of 3rd Edition vehicles were given the ability to use Fire Points as they do now. Midway into 3rd edition mass new rules took place and Fire Points removed as they were deemed overpowered and not all races had them on their vehicles. This would be like bringing back old 3rd Edition Assault rules. All vehicles are considered to have assault ramps; Could move full distance, disembark, then move then assault then consolidate into another assault. Another way to look at it would be if Wave Serpents were only 65 points and had 5 fire points and I'am sure most Eldar would consider it fluffy. I'am sure the Devilfish for Tau would love to have fire points like a Chimera. Sternguard would love to have a 5 fire point rhino to roll in etc etc

Thanks so much for the link Kilkrazy.. And your post was great too..

Cheers.

Borris the Blade wrote: No longer can you block the access door to trap models inside and kill them all if the vehicles pops.

Except you can... Units that cannot disembark are destroyed. If a vehicle's doors are blocked and the vehicle is "wrecked" they may make an emergency disembarkation to deploy anywhere within 2" of the hull and not within 1" of enemy. If the enemy surrounds the vehicle, the passengers cannot deploy and are destroyed.

/On topic. For me the frustrating thing about chimera's compared to rhinos is the synergy of 3 special weapons using the fire port PLUS TWO vehicle weapons. Rhinos are nice, I enjoy them a lot. But, they only have two fire points and C:SM do not have the ability to field scoring units with 2+ special weapons that could actually be able to use those fire points. (Barring a one-shot combi-weapon or a Pedro sternguard list). If the C:SM want to have an actual gun on their transport they pay 5 points, lose the fire points and lose the ability to carry a full squad.

The Chimera just seems like a no-brainer unit. Why would an IG player ever not take a chimera? The fact that they are almost an automatic, unalloyed bonus for very few points screams undercosted or OP to me.

If I were to rewrite the rules I would probably do one or more of the following: (1) Increase cost to 60 or 65 pts; (2) Hull weapon costs more; (3) Two fire points for heavy or special weapons (rest have to be lasguns); (4) The chimera counts as open-topped if the passengers use the special weapon fire ports and have an armor save of 4+ or worse.

I’ve seen lots of armies going mech. Last week I read a (blood angels?) army list that was 9 dreds and one special charter. IG have always been squishy and I think the only way for them to keep any scoring units on the table is to can them.

Kolath wrote:

Borris the Blade wrote: No longer can you block the access door to trap models inside and kill them all if the vehicles pops.

Except you can... Units that cannot disembark are destroyed. If a vehicle's doors are blocked and the vehicle is "wrecked" they may make an emergency disembarkation to deploy anywhere within 2" of the hull and not within 1" of enemy. If the enemy surrounds the vehicle, the passengers cannot deploy and are destroyed.

It's actually harder to pull that off then you'd think. Unless you're playing IG or Orks, most units don't have the manpower to totally surround a Chimera.

Or Tyranids ;-)

I dunno about other people, but against nids, unless there's a Doom around, I tend to disembark right away.

Kolath wrote:Rhinos are nice, I enjoy them a lot.

Why would an IG player ever not take a chimera?

If I were to rewrite the rules I would probably do one or more of the following: (1) Increase cost to 60 or 65 pts; (2) Hull weapon costs more; (3) Two fire points for heavy or special weapons (rest have to be lasguns); (4) The chimera counts as open-topped if the passengers use the special weapon fire ports and have an armor save of 4+ or worse.

Wow, hate much?

Rhinos cost a *lot* less, and have a different role, due to having T4 Sv3+ models inside who can actually fight.

Guard are supposed to take Chimeras (and shoot), just as Marines are supposed to take Rhinos (and move), so the rules are designed to encourage that synergy.

For 60 pts, etc. blah-blah-blah, the Chimera will need to be AV12/11/10, and AV12/12/10 for 65+ pts.

He must have lost to IG when he figured it would be an easy win.

BaronIveagh wrote:He must have lost to IG when he figured it would be an easy win.

Sounds like he wants IG to use DH Chimeras.

The suggested changes are basically how Chimeras used to work: high basic cost and expensive hull weapons, 2 heavy/special fire points and lasguns, open-topped if using hatch, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The suggested changes are basically how Chimeras used to work: high basic cost and expensive hull weapons, 2 heavy/special fire points and lasguns, open-topped if using hatch, etc. ... and they sucked hardcore.

Why do chimeras get more hate then any other transport?

Rhinos < Chimeras is a crazy argument because they are designed to do two different things. One is suppose to protect squishy guardsmen, the other is supposed to make already tough marines more mobile.

It's like saying that a Land Raider is better than a Trukk because you can assault out of both of them but the Landraider has better weapons and armor.

Chimeras get more hate because they are an IG tank. People are simply not used to IG having good stuff or winning games. IG are always the punching-bag of choice for any codex showing off how badass it is, and in the past the rules pretty much reflected this.

And yes, admittedly they are extremely good as long as they are fielded en masse.

Terminus wrote:People are simply not used to IG having good stuff or winning games. IG are always the punching-bag of choice for any codex showing off how badass it is, and in the past the rules pretty much reflected this.

I played a lot of Drop Guard backed by Ordnance in 4E. They were awesomely effective, but not so typical of how GW typically portrays Guard...

Terminus wrote:And yes, admittedly they are extremely good as long as they are fielded en masse.

This, of course, holds for any decently-competitive unit.

Terminus wrote:Chimeras get more hate because they are an IG tank. People are simply not used to IG having good stuff or winning games. IG are always the punching-bag of choice for any codex showing off how badass it is, and in the past the rules pretty much reflected this.

And yes, admittedly they are extremely good as long as they are fielded en masse.

I contest this, as I have been brutally effective with IG for the last 2 editions. But then I also can't say anyone in my local club is bitching about chimeras, either. Vendetta's loaded with stormies hitting lightly defended objectives, yes. Chimeras, not so much.

Really without the orders special rule IG lose a lot of their value, so for a squad to still be effective you'll want to move them up with a PCS also in a chimera and you'll want to keep them other infantry kind of close to maximize the Command Squads effectivness now you're talking a Chimera for each squad you plan on moving up. At 55 points it's more like you're getting a price break for buying in bulk then you are getting a unit cheap.

Infantry, yes, you'd have to fall back on vets, but... they aren't the only trick up my sleeve.


Hallelujah, Amen, Peanut Butter.

Infantry are what I'm talking about, after the first turn blitz toward the objective I like to disembark in cover so that my infantry squad can fire all ten lasguns instead of just the five, I can use HW and my Chimera can target another group if I'm fighting other soft targets. For the infantry to be the most effective a PCS should be near by, and the more squads you deploy around him the more efficent the PCS becomes. So for the squad out of the Chimera to be at its best you're talking about a constant investment in Chimera APCs which is why the sort of low 55 pts cost is justifiable.

All 10 lasguns? Unfortunately, I guess as a way to compensate for FRFSRF, guard squads have fewer lasguns now. The Sgt doesn't have one, you lose another if you take a heavy weapon and a third if you fire that heavy weapon. Add the special weapon, and you only have six lasguns per squad.

What is the real value of a PCS as a commander? His orders are pretty situational, and the range makes things difficult. I rely on the CCSs for orders, personally. My PCS tends to range out on their own with 4 flamers, occasionally using Incoming to camp out on an objective.

ductvader wrote:Anyone else sick of these stupid things lately?

The leafblower is sweeping the game and changing it into a tank fight.

I have nothing against Guard and it's even cool to see lists full of different Russes, but Chimeras are flavorless boxes.

METAL BOXES! MULTILASERS!

I also dislike the Chimera, but not because of what it does. I just hate how it looks. I hate those built in lasguns sprouting from the sides like tentacles. They look awful.

Ouze wrote:I also dislike the Chimera, but not because of what it does. I just hate how it looks. I hate those built in lasguns sprouting from the sides like tentacles. They look awful.

That is why, as a modeler, one's first task is to *remove* the Lasguns!

Eh, to my embarrassment, my 4th ed Chimeras are doomed to forever sprout them. Along with FW autocannon turrets.

I Agree that they are effective but i think its a bit sad how its getting to the point where there is very little originality in guard lists especially mech.

... well, consider how long we had Tau fish of fury or all eldar escort lists over in BFG...

Considering how IG have exactly ONE dedicated transport, you can't really fault a Guard player for taking them.

I don't run as many as I could but all my units are mounted in something. Valkyries and Chimeras... don't have a lot of choices.

I just like tanks.

... well, consider how long we had Tau fish of fury or all eldar escort lists over in BFG...

Void Stalkers seem to be much more of a staple in the eldar lists I've fought

Volkov wrote:

... well, consider how long we had Tau fish of fury or all eldar escort lists over in BFG...

Void Stalkers seem to be much more of a staple in the eldar lists I've fought

You should thank the God Emperor your opponents haven't hit you with the all hemlocks list. I play IN and Chaos, and even with A boats and bombers, they can be a pain in the ass. Mostly because they come in bulk. However, this is totally OT.

Yeah but if you put up your list how similar do you think it would be to others?

IG? or my IN and Chaos fleets in BFG?