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Couldn't say. You might as well ask why a stone is.

Unless you're asking for a specific example, such as a bad presence in a house, a haunting, poltergeist activity, possession, demons, astral entities, etc. Then I could hazard an answer.

Bah, was just curious. Intrigued by peoples beliefs.


Still gives me the willies even if i dont believe it.

To cut a long story short, and speak in generalities, you're safe practicing minor stuff. However, you reach a point where you've developed your sensitivity enough, and accumulated enough spiritual power, that you begin to invite attentions from other entities.
And from there you fall into a vicious cycle. The more power you accumulate, the more danger you're in, and the more power you need to defend yourself, until you're walking a precipice between ending up a gibbering loon in an asylum, and keeping yourself safe.

Ketara wrote:Like I said, if a serious discussion of this nature was attempted, it would be immediately trolled by half a dozen more prolific hardcore atheist posters.

Yes. Yes you would.

Although I would point out that suggesting that most paganism/Wicca etc. (of the type you mention) has only been practiced since the early-to-mid 20th Century and has little if any basis in historic or scientific fact, is not 'trolling'. Nice way to deflect criticism of an indefensible position though.


Quit trying to scare the kids, man.

More modern positions are derived from older ones. Just because something is new doesn't invalidate it, it merely means it's half a dozen older concepts rolled into one usually.

I'm not deflecting criticism, when I entered into investigating the 'occult', I did so out of pure scientific curiosity, with no narrow views, or previously held beliefs. I'm a man of logic, but some things are beyond it. I accept that and move on.

Ketara wrote:More modern positions are derived from older ones. Just because something is new doesn't invalidate it, it merely means it's half a dozen older concepts rolled into one usually.

Yes, but there is little or no evidence that ancient Britons practiced a religion that bears any resemblance to Wicca. The fact that early 'witchcraft' was a mish-mash of ancient beliefs borrowed from other folk-traditions, allied to other stuff which was just made up doesn't make it more valid as a belief system, it makes it less so. I've read a book by two leading practitioners which basically tells the reader to make it up as he/she goes along, under the pretence of 'doing what feels right to you'. That's a pretty damning indictment on a belief system - basically admitting that the specifics aren't important, just the belief. 'What's wrong with that?' you might ask. 'Positive thinking can have real effects on one's life.' Fine. No problem with that. But that's a far fething cry from saying one could summon demons or spirits, or 'accumulate spiritual power'.

I'm not deflecting criticism, when I entered into investigating the 'occult', I did so out of pure scientific curiosity, with no narrow views, or previously held beliefs. I'm a man of logic, but some things are beyond it. I accept that and move on.

Very nice. I've heard people speak with authority about their 'study of the occult'. It's very impressive to children, mature adults less so. In fact some of the things you've posted on this thread remind me of an individual (actually, several individuals) I used to know who used their 'occult knowledge' to get close to underage girls. The oblique references to shadowy going's on that 'you can't really talk about', claiming to have secret knowledge - that sort of thing is catnip to immature, impressionable minds. Of course, after a prolonged period of pestering, this kind-hearted soul eventually agrees to 'teach' them in the ways of witchcraft. Creepy.

I'm not suggesting that you actually DO any of those things, Ketara. I would never make such an assumption about a person I have never met. Just so we're clear.

What I'm saying is that 'witchcraft' can sound very seductive to impressionable minds, impressionable people often have active imaginations and a willingness to believe in that which they find exciting.

I mean all of this in the nicest possible way.

Ketara wrote:

There are many different paths to walk in this department, from Wiccanism, to Demonology, to paganism, to warlockry, etc. They all lead to the same end however, they just approach it from a different angle. I could go into more detail, but I know if I tried, I'd immediately get curbstomped by the atheists on here.

From what I understand of paganism and Wicca the above statement is way off.

Paganism is a broad church that covers many aspects of belief.
Not all pagans are devil worshippers, in fact I would assume most not to be.

You are completely misrepresenting someone elses' religion here.

There may be horned gods involed or there may not be. But they are not the fallen angels of Christian mythology.
It would be better not to lump all these beliefs into the same witches' cauldron Ketara.

Nothing at all.

Sometimes I feel as I am falling, then I wake up, it feels like I fell about three feet onto my bed.

Paranoid, though nothing to do with it being at night.

Albatross wrote:

Ketara wrote:Like I said, if a serious discussion of this nature was attempted, it would be immediately trolled by half a dozen more prolific hardcore atheist posters.

Yes. Yes you would.

Although I would point out that suggesting that most paganism/Wicca etc. (of the type you mention) has only been practiced since the early-to-mid 20th Century and has little if any basis in historic or scientific fact, is not 'trolling'. Nice way to deflect criticism of an indefensible position though.

Quit trying to scare the kids, man.

That, plus one doesn't need to be an atheist to completely doubt all that supernatural stuff as presented by "parapsychologists," "ghost hunters," "demonologists," and all the usual suspects.

Ouija boards aren't any more dangerous or scary to me than Connect Four, Life, or other fine Milton Bradley products. Seriously, if I still owned one, I'd feel free to taunt it just like I do Happy Fun Ball.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Sometimes I feel as I am falling, then I wake up, it feels like I fell about three feet onto my bed.

I get that too. Near as I can figure, I'm arching my back or twisting/turning in bed somehow, creating the "whump" effect.

A small derailment: True Athiesism is just a "stupid" as religion. I am an athiest, so I would like to explain myself before everyone jumps on me: Only a fool ever beleives he is the "Top of the food chain", so to speak. No matter how good you are at video games, someone is always better. No matter how good of a cook you are, someone can always cook it better. No matter how good at sports you are, someone is always more fit. To merely say that any being with powers that we do not have can not exist is foolish.

Another way of looking at it: Man might be the top of the food chain, but there are things much more deadly in the chain that no man would willingly taunt with no safety net between them...

It might also be because of my dreams that I beleive in this sort of thing, though, too. I would beleive that 1 time is just wierd, 4 times is just coincidence, but it has happened 10 times in my 18 years, and mostly just recently.

Hey Ketara, if you want to PM me these examples, I am willing to read/listen.

Small de-railing?

Dreams, paranoia, etc...

RELIGION!

Ketara wrote:I'm a man of logic, but some things are beyond it. I accept that and move on.

Logic is limited by knowledge, if we lack knowledge of a thing, or set of things, then logic can only be applied to it in a limited sense. That doesn't mean that logic isn't applicable at all, it simply means that logical isn't especially useful due to the absence of information.

Ketara wrote:
That, plus one doesn't need to be an atheist to completely doubt all that supernatural stuff as presented by "parapsychologists," "ghost hunters," "demonologists," and all the usual suspects.

Additionally, you can be an Atheist and believe in the supernatural. Atheism is not tacit to materialism or naturalism, and even they can simply reclassify 'supernatural phenomena in order to recognize them.

Albatross, I'll take this to PM, so as to avoid further derailment of the thread.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Nothing at all.

Sometimes I feel as I am falling, then I wake up, it feels like I fell about three feet onto my bed.

Paranoid, though nothing to do with it being at night.

There's a psychological term for that, but I can't remember what. It happens to me all the time, and I asked my girlfriend, who was studying sleep psychology at the time. Apparently it happens when you wake up during a certain 'stage' of sleep, and your brain takes a second or two to kick-start, creating that falling feeling.

Woah! Now this is getting strange! I start reading the paranoia thread, leave for about ten minutes, return to be told by Mum the printer was acting strangely, to be followed by the Internet going to offline mode with a strong positive connection. Damn!

This stuff happens to me all the time; seeing things that aren't there, hearing things that don't exist, falling whilst on the ground, that feeling that I'm not alone in the empty room. I'd say I've had some experience with paranormal events, but regardless, I still keep myself inline, line not instantly dismissing those odd events, because should man not be the top dog of this planet, we had better learn who's boss quickly.

Anyway, for a freaky paranormal event. My old school had a Film and TV excursion to a place called New Norcia last year.(I live in Western Australia, so this place is pretty remote). Anyway, it's a pretty Catholic place with monks and everything, and I would listen to all the stories of strange events around the place, including one about the ghost in the chapel. Anyway, this place has a graveyard, and some of the graves have spooky stories, eg. a six year old boy who died for some unknown reason. I'll stop rambling and get to the point. We were filming a movie scene in the graveyard, and were walking back, when the teacher called to the student on the other side of the graveyard to come in. The student then flicks of his torch, and nothing. There wasn't a student, just a light. Still gives me the creeps.

At the end of this camp, on the final before we left, some of the girls were taking pictures of their dorm, when they called me over. I didn't think much of it until I realized I was on the other side of the dorm area, so whatever they wanted me for, they needed me fast. So I stopped walking and jogged/ran. I get there and was told to look at the wall. Seeing nothing, I ask why, when one of them takes a picture of the wall. On the photo, floating, glowing orbs were going about the room, as there was in the photos before they called me. Strange floating orbs invisible to the naked eye? Yes, we were a little bit edgy walking around for the rest of the time. I've moved school since then, and there was another camp, as these are now a yearly thing, and hadn't thought about my ghostly orb friends until one of my friends tells me he was on the camp. I asked him if anything odd happened, and sure enough, he told me they saw floating orbs in photos, but not with their eyes.

So, like I said, I have had some experience, but still am wary of everything. And any ghost fanatics out there, come check out New Norcia, fun all the time.

I sometime see floaters but it ain't in photos!

Not convinced about the orb things as spirits etc. AFAIK it is a phenomenon that has only occured since digital photography. There appears to be a connection with atmospherics too.

Never had any myself but my bro/someone he knows took some pics in Scotland that orbs appeared in. Not the sort to make up stuff for a wind up btw

ghosty wrote:This stuff sounds creepier by the minute. What happens, you get haunted and stuff?

the demons come and steal your toothbrush.

Or worse, the Malfred comes for your socks.

Come on Ketara you can't say something like that then not explain it at all

No ones going to go all atheist on you. I'm a pretty hardcore atheist but it still seems interesting.

That was my view, but apparently albatross leapt into action, representing atheism before he could elaborate.

TBH, i don't mind if this thread careens from the original point, i mean creepy stuff has wide perimeters.

4M2A wrote:Come on Ketara you can't say something like that then not explain it at all

No ones going to go all atheist on you. I'm a pretty hardcore atheist but it still seems interesting.

To be perfectly frank, I'm an atheist in that I don't believe in the concept of the God of classical theism. But if I attempted to put down what I know/theorize here, the result would be:-

1) Getting jumped by a number of other posters.
2) Me attempting to defend what is ultimately, indefensible
3) Ending up in a quote by quote argument of people breaking down everything I've said, regardless of me admitting I have little concrete proof to support or validate my claims.

I'm effectively trying to describe the colour red, and argue it exists to a blind man. Unless you've done it, you can't comprehend it, and my attempts to explain it will be torn to pieces.

So rather then trying to impress the teens, I'll just say, pure and simple. leave it alone. Either I'm right, and it's something you don't want to touch with a barge pole, or I'm wrong and it's irrelevant anyway.

I've PMed you Albatross, and I await your answer with interest.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I sometime see floaters but it ain't in photos!

Not convinced about the orb things as spirits etc. AFAIK it is a phenomenon that has only occured since digital photography. There appears to be a connection with atmospherics too.

Never had any myself but my bro/someone he knows took some pics in Scotland that orbs appeared in. Not the sort to make up stuff for a wind up btw

Orbs actually are seen in "standard" camera photography too. 99.98% of orbs you see can be explained away as the flash/IR illuminators reflecting off of bugs or dust. It's also worth noting that "orbs" aren't exclusive to still photos. They appear in video quite often too, with the same explanation of things reflecting light weirdly.

But then there's that .02% that can't really be classed as one or the other.

Frazzled wrote:

ghosty wrote:This stuff sounds creepier by the minute. What happens, you get haunted and stuff?

the demons come and steal your toothbrush.

Ever read Practical Demonkeeping? Funny book. Anyway, IIRC the book mentions a demon in Hell whose responsibility it is to leech the styrofoam taste into people's coffee.

I'd be half-willing to believe in those kinds of demons, LOL.

Also for a corking read about demonology and wizards I recommend the Bartimaeus Trilogy by Jonothan Stroud. Very funny imho

When I was about seven I woke up at about 1am. Never happened before that. I saw a 'horned' shadow leaning over my bed. Looked kinda like YuGiOh's Summoned Skull now that I think about it. But even the creepy demon stuff, I once saw a heavy metal docu and there was a segment on the whole Black Sabbath 'burnt church' incident. Both Tommy Iommi and Ozzy said that there was strange stuff happened when they were messing around with that freaky tiki gak. They couldn't explain anything either. I would agree with Katara, that stuff is some dangerous creepy gak to mess about with, even if I haven't tried it, there's just a weird vibe I get from the sheer mention of it. That's bad mojo.

Ketara wrote:Like I said, if a serious discussion of this nature was attempted, it would be immediately trolled by half a dozen more prolific hardcore atheist posters.

Suffice to say, there are some rather nasty consequences.

Not for me, I'm catholic.

Catholicism: Your exorcism done in 30 minutes or less or its free.

halonachos wrote:

Ketara wrote:Like I said, if a serious discussion of this nature was attempted, it would be immediately trolled by half a dozen more prolific hardcore atheist posters.

Suffice to say, there are some rather nasty consequences.

Not for me, I'm catholic.

Catholicism: Your exorcism done in 30 minutes or less or its free.

Way to completely underplay exorcism. BTW, it doesn't always work(our band Chaplain at Jesuit was a former Exorcist in Africa for the Catholic Church).

But yes, the rule of thumb is that it is a bad idea to burn a ouiji board. Something about opening a gate into the mortal realm that cannot be readily closed.

halonachos wrote:But yes, the rule of thumb is that it is a bad idea to burn a ouiji board. Something about opening a gate into the mortal realm that cannot be readily closed.

But what if you ship it to someone you don't like with a booby trap? When that person opens the package it catch the board on fire.

Like I said, BAD MOJO.

Only you frazzled would find a way to weaponize a ouiji board.