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Laughing God wrote:
No fan boy, you fail at fluff. Read Thousand sons, the wolves condemned and were chomping at the bit to slay the thousand sons way before the emperor took note of their heresies. But the best part is they labeled the Thousand sons traitors for witchcraft (like runepriests don’t use the warp for their powers too?!) and mutation (WTF is a WULFEN?! a mutant werewolf far more deadly than the spawn the thousand sons turned into)

Black Library has been known to get names wrong, and you want to use it as canon? Seriously? Black Library isn't fluff. Fluff is presented in official sources: Codecies, Rule Books, White Dwarf. That's pretty much it.

And find me a single recount of a Wulfen going nuts. Go ahead, I'll wait. Because if you read the Eye of Terror codex, you'll find plenty of examples where they show up, destroy the enemies of the Imperium, and then vanish again to continue the fight. Can't say you'll find anything of the sort for the Thousand Sons...

Logan Grimnar is an example of how cool the spacewolves USED to be. Perfect mix of manly Viking and wolf worship.

He's still leading the Space Wolves, last I checked. Long Fangs are still our grizzled old veterans "too long in the tooth" for berserker rages and suicide charges. Blood Claws are still the same hot-headed new recruits with no hint of this werewolf issue that you seem to take such umbrage with, but can't present any real proof of other than the Mark. Are they more "wolfy" than previously? Sure, we get Fenrisian Wolves in our armies now for all the old 13th company players, we get Thunderwolf cavalry, but it's not as though people weren't already converting them and it's not like they didn't exist in the fluff before this codex.

The space wolves are notorious for leaving nothing but ruins and dead bodies in the wake of any they call foe. Man, woman, child it didnt matter the dogs feriocity killed them all. There are perfect examples of this in tales of heresy and thousand sons. Not to mention there blatant disregard for the codex astares and the imperial creed. If ANYONE else but the SW did this it would be sure extermiatus and SM chapters would be petitioned to hunt them down. But like many have said they make better allies in there drunken blood thirst than foes.

You actually believe that, don't you? That's pretty sad. Who insisted on stopping to liberate human worlds during the Horus Heresy, even if it delayed reaching the Emperor? It wasn't Lion'el Johnson, it was Leman Russ. Do they destroy the enemies of the Imperium without remorse? Absolutely! But so do all Space Marines, that's not unique to the Space Wolves. To we disregard the Codex Astartes? Absolutely. It's not like it was handed down from the Emperor, the Guillmon did it. He was a primarch, just like Leman Russ, his word isn't the Emperor's dogma or anything. If anyone is playing up the "drunken bloodthirst" around here, it's not GW, it's you.

"For Ten Thousand years since the end of the Horus Heresy the Space Wolves have continued to serve the Emperor faithfully and with honour. The Chapter has endured ages of constant battle. It has survived times of anarchy within the Imperium and periods of occasional isolation from Earth. The Imperium itself has weathered crises from within and without. At times it has been deeply riven by rebellion or divided by invasion. on other occasions tumultuous warp storms have stranded parts of the galaxy for hundreds of years.

Through all these years of mixed fortune, the Space Wolves have held true to the vow of Leman russ to serve the Emperor, though they have not always served in the way that the High Lords of Terra might have liked them to..."
-From the Apocrypha of Jaejonsson, Vol II (C:SW, pg 41)

IIRC, Jervis Johnson has even been quoted as saying Space Wolves are the "Good Guys" because they actually care about civilians.

Wulfen are bloodthirsty mutants, read legends of the space marines. Even the SW's dont like to bring them up. They are nothing but GW's play on selling more space pups riding the werewolf craze.

You might be thinking of the 13th company, but not all of the 13th company are subject to the Mark. Space Wolves don't talk about the 13th company because it represents their biggest failure. Those who have fallen, been lost, or turned traitor.

I don’t have a problem with the space wolves BEFORE this codex. Time and time again we have shown that the SW's have just been sold out by GW to ride the Wolfy wolf train to become space werewolves rather than honorable drunken space Vikings they once were. And that’s just the fluff, the rules themselves are completely ridiculous. Handing out MotW, insane psychic powers, and 16point CSM with counter attack like welfare checks to liberals.

Wait, is your problem with the rules, or the fluff? Because basically it looks like you're crying sour grapes and then trashing the whole codex because of it.


"We may be few, and our enemies many. Yet so long as there remains on of us still fighting, one who still rages in the name of justice and truth, then by the Allfather, the galaxy shall yet know hope."
-Ragnar Blackmane of the Space Wolves


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Brother Heinrich wrote:Yeah thats a whole other issue, which we'd be best to just stay away from(jaws of the world bat anyone?).

I guess it's because one of my regular enemies is an Eldar player, but JotWW doesn't see nearly as much use as Murderous Hurricane and Storm Caller do.

I'm not saying JotWW isn't powerful, one of my other armies is Tyranids and as a Tyranid player JotWW makes me cry. I just don't see it as the end-all be-all of Space Wolf psychic powers that so many seem to. Different strokes/folks I guess.

I'm not going to loose sleep over the OP loosing sleep. It seems that the Wolves have fallen out of your favor. Too bad. I'll take your models if you don't want them anymore.

I personally don't see the werewolf aspect that you say is so present. I don't see a single reference of a marine suddenly growing fangs and running on all fours to speed to the enemy then suddenly becoming a man again to fire off their bolters, only to turn back into a wolf and run off after a thrown stick.

They still are old space viking that love drinking and bruising. In a few (granted more now than say in past editions) the Canis Helix has taken a stronger hold and wont let go, thus altering their abilities. But its not rampent, and its not even werewolfdom, its just leads to a more savage nature.

Indeed Anpu42!

I'm just glad they finally got a good codex that works, the old Space wolves codex was official yet out of print for so long it was just awful at tourneys and events.

For a long time you couldn't even buy one!

I got into space wolves after the new book came out, I was curious before but I couldn't even get a codex.

I do wish they still had leman russ though.

Jayden63 wrote:I'm not going to loose sleep over the OP loosing sleep. It seems that the Wolves have fallen out of your favor. Too bad. I'll take your models if you don't want them anymore.

I personally don't see the werewolf aspect that you say is so present. I don't see a single reference of a marine suddenly growing fangs and running on all fours to speed to the enemy then suddenly becoming a man again to fire off their bolters, only to turn back into a wolf and run off after a thrown stick.

They still are old space viking that love drinking and bruising. In a few (granted more now than say in past editions) the Canis Helix has taken a stronger hold and wont let go, thus altering their abilities. But its not rampent, and its not even werewolfdom, its just leads to a more savage nature.

so in essence you're saying that wulfen are in fact not ramapaging bio-engineered monsters. If you're trying to take this as a literal "werewolf" interpretation, then they should turn into wulfen on the full moon only. Every account I've seen, codex or otherwise, has painted them (wulfen) as raging uncontrollable monsters. yes they don't change back and forth at will, its only when they lose control of their rage, however thats not the point we're arguing here. And if as you say the canus helix "has taken a stronger hold and won't let go" then I'd say thats a pretty glaring example of genetic deviancy if I've ever seen one. I simply fail to see how they are allowed to continue on this path, helpful though their aid may be when others are condemed to death for far less, I mean the relictors used the weapons of chaos against the enemies of the Imperium, yet they were still declared excommunicate and hunted down, and look at the mantis warriors, they were condemned to a 100 year penitent crusade for simply being tricked into playing for the wrong team. I fail to see that in a galaxy of trillions of souls and thousands of space marine chapters, that the loss of the space wolves would be such a devastating blow to the imperium, if anything another chapter would likely claim its resources and armory and take position protecting fenris and surrounding space, if not well, planets and systems have burned for far less

Brother Heinrich wrote:
so in essence you're saying that wulfen are in fact not ramapaging bio-engineered monsters. If you're trying to take this as a literal "werewolf" interpretation, then they should turn into wulfen on the full moon only. Every account I've seen, codex or otherwise, has painted them (wulfen) as raging uncontrollable monsters.

Cite a single one, please? Because as I said before, Codex Armageddon paints quite the clear picture of their showing up, mercilessly slaughtering the enemies of the Imperium and then leaving as quickly as they came. No eating of dead bodies, no snarling at the guardsmen whose lives the Wulfen had just saved, no "running around after a stick". In, slaughter, out, quickly and (almost) quietly.

yes they don't change back and forth at will, its only when they lose control of their rage, however thats not the point we're arguing here. And if as you say the canus helix "has taken a stronger hold and won't let go" then I'd say thats a pretty glaring example of genetic deviancy if I've ever seen one.

I'm not sure anyone is trying to argue that Space Wolves don't have a genetic deviancy. The Canis Helix (and the resultant growth of Space Wolves' canine teeth) is quite clearly a genetic deviation. It's also one that's been around since Leman Russ himself, so I think the Administratum is kinda forced to let it slide. It's not like they've got a third eye or tentacles growing all over the place.

I simply fail to see how they are allowed to continue on this path, helpful though their aid may be when others are condemed to death for far less, I mean the relictors used the weapons of chaos against the enemies of the Imperium, yet they were still declared excommunicate and hunted down, and look at the mantis warriors, they were condemned to a 100 year penitent crusade for simply being tricked into playing for the wrong team. I fail to see that in a galaxy of trillions of souls and thousands of space marine chapters, that the loss of the space wolves would be such a devastating blow to the imperium, if anything another chapter would likely claim its resources and armory and take position protecting fenris and surrounding space, if not well, planets and systems have burned for far less

I really, really wish I had my old Codex with me at work. It has a most excellent quote from Balthazar von Heppel about the Space Wolves, and why the Imperium is better for their existence. It simply comes down to the fact that to many of the regular citizens of the Imperium, the Space Wolves above all chapters are heroes. Destroy them, and you destroy the Morale of untold trillions.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I'm not going to loose sleep over the OP loosing sleep. It seems that the Wolves have fallen out of your favor. Too bad. I'll take your models if you don't want them anymore.

I personally don't see the werewolf aspect that you say is so present. I don't see a single reference of a marine suddenly growing fangs and running on all fours to speed to the enemy then suddenly becoming a man again to fire off their bolters, only to turn back into a wolf and run off after a thrown stick.

They still are old space viking that love drinking and bruising. In a few (granted more now than say in past editions) the Canis Helix has taken a stronger hold and wont let go, thus altering their abilities. But its not rampent, and its not even werewolfdom, its just leads to a more savage nature.

so in essence you're saying that wulfen are in fact not ramapaging bio-engineered monsters. If you're trying to take this as a literal "werewolf" interpretation, then they should turn into wulfen on the full moon only. Every account I've seen, codex or otherwise, has painted them (wulfen) as raging uncontrollable monsters. yes they don't change back and forth at will, its only when they lose control of their rage, however thats not the point we're arguing here. And if as you say the canus helix "has taken a stronger hold and won't let go" then I'd say thats a pretty glaring example of genetic deviancy if I've ever seen one. I simply fail to see how they are allowed to continue on this path, helpful though their aid may be when others are condemed to death for far less, I mean the relictors used the weapons of chaos against the enemies of the Imperium, yet they were still declared excommunicate and hunted down, and look at the mantis warriors, they were condemned to a 100 year penitent crusade for simply being tricked into playing for the wrong team. I fail to see that in a galaxy of trillions of souls and thousands of space marine chapters, that the loss of the space wolves would be such a devastating blow to the imperium, if anything another chapter would likely claim its resources and armory and take position protecting fenris and surrounding space, if not well, planets and systems have burned for far less

If thats your definition of mutation then all marine chapters are chocked full of mutation. Because a Space marines are made by implanting the primarchs gene seed. All space marines start out as humans then become altered. And how many (especially first founding) chapters have a flaw of some sort in them. Probably had something to do with the way the primarchs were outcast through the warp as infants. So where is the line drawn between heretic and altered hero? Who draws that line? And what if there is nothing you can do about it?

Lets face it, its those flaws that make each individual chapter interesting. It would be pretty boring universe if all SM were Ultramarines.

Also its a well known fact that the only fluff that matters is the current fluff. GW changes things willy nilly and really doesn't care about what is cannon and what is not. The only fluff you can go by is what is in the current books. The current fluff has SW at odds with the church, it has them at odds with the administration, it has them drinking and fighting. Its what Wolves always were. So their rune priests got a bump in tabletop power. So what if suddenly lots of equipment suddenly has the word wolf attached to it. The game has to change and evolve. Or what did you want, the same third ed codex units with shiny new pictures?

Space Wolves were the only SM army I ever considered playing, but I didn't start one until the new codex came out. Why? Because its very competitive, has lots of builds, and the fluff still follows what I understood SW to be all this time. Vikings in Space. Only this time with 10% more fur. And I just don't see that as a bad thing.

Like all things in 40K just focus on what you like and ignore the rest. In the 40K universe that I play in the 4th ed Chaos Codex doesn't even exist.


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streamdragon wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:
so in essence you're saying that wulfen are in fact not ramapaging bio-engineered monsters. If you're trying to take this as a literal "werewolf" interpretation, then they should turn into wulfen on the full moon only. Every account I've seen, codex or otherwise, has painted them (wulfen) as raging uncontrollable monsters.

Cite a single one, please? Because as I said before, Codex Armageddon paints quite the clear picture of their showing up, mercilessly slaughtering the enemies of the Imperium and then leaving as quickly as they came. No eating of dead bodies, no snarling at the guardsmen whose lives the Wulfen had just saved, no "running around after a stick". In, slaughter, out, quickly and (almost) quietly.

Don't forget also that in the current codex models with Mark of the Wolfen don't trade in any equipment. A grey Hunter with MOTW is just as happy shooting his bolter all game long. Its also not like they gain some more of the radical USRs like Rage or FC. Stuff that shows an increased ferocity and inability to think for themselves or are uncontrollably driven to mindlessly slaughter the closest thing . Its just that when it comes time for HTH, they just get a little more into it than their brothers. Thus I find it more fitting that the Canis Helix has a stronger hold on the poor guy, but he still hasn't completely gone over to full Wulfen and then outcast into the 13th Co or some other ill gotten fate.

Can't we all just get along?! Why is there so much hate??

Or instead of getting along, let's stop this argument and accept that much of the rules (NOT FLUFF HOWEVER) has been changed by games workshop to add some gimmicks and frilly/spangly bits in order to sell more. The core of the book is still very much the Space Wolves we know and love, as is their play-style.

Sorted. Next Debate?

I don't mind the change... I actually think the new codex is one of the only two Marine codices I might one day want to get into.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:If I recall correctly the Space Wolves have always had the Wulfen and Rune Priests, and the Rune Priests did use psychic powers, not many I know but they had them. I also think the Mark of the Wulfen existed in the 3rd edition rule book as something you could take from the wargear section so really I'm not seeing your over all issue.

Becuase beforehand the wolfshagging and mindfeths were only alluded before, where now it's staring you in the face. Ew.

Right, that's why the Werewolf Marines from 3rd ed are totally in the current book, currently you only get a mark for them that shows in the future theses guys may turn into Wolfmen.

streamdragon wrote:Cite a single one, please? Because as I said before, Codex Armageddon paints quite the clear picture of their showing up, mercilessly slaughtering the enemies of the Imperium and then leaving as quickly as they came. No eating of dead bodies, no snarling at the guardsmen whose lives the Wulfen had just saved, no "running around after a stick". In, slaughter, out, quickly and (almost) quietly.

oh sure they saved the nice little guardsmen's lives, but you're referencing one battle, and I'm not saying they attack Imperial citizens and eat them like the flesh tearers, however you can't tell me that all the Imperial navy/Inquisition personnel that have died as a direct result of rubbing the space wolves the wrong way deserved their fate because they were evil or something

streamdragon wrote:I'm not sure anyone is trying to argue that Space Wolves don't have a genetic deviancy. The Canis Helix (and the resultant growth of Space Wolves' canine teeth) is quite clearly a genetic deviation. It's also one that's been around since Leman Russ himself, so I think the Administratum is kinda forced to let it slide. It's not like they've got a third eye or tentacles growing all over the place.

true however, since everyone wants to cite the codex like its the holy bible, have you seen the pictures in the new codex? they look closer in facial structure to daemonettes than the humans they were created from

streamdragon wrote:I really, really wish I had my old Codex with me at work. It has a most excellent quote from Balthazar von Heppel about the Space Wolves, and why the Imperium is better for their existence. It simply comes down to the fact that to many of the regular citizens of the Imperium, the Space Wolves above all chapters are heroes. Destroy them, and you destroy the Morale of untold trillions.

untold billions? I highly doubt the loss of the Space Wolves would result in a galatic session of Emo self mutilation and despair, in the Grim Darkness of the far future....no one cares.


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Melissia wrote:I don't mind the change... I actually think the new codex is one of the only two Marine codices I might one day want to get into.

the other being blood angels?

Brother Heinrich wrote:oh sure they saved the nice little guardsmen's lives, but you're referencing one battle, and I'm not saying they attack Imperial citizens and eat them like the flesh tearers, however you can't tell me that all the Imperial navy/Inquisition personnel that have died as a direct result of rubbing the space wolves the wrong way deserved their fate because they were evil or something

Two things:

1. Again, please cite an example of where the Space Wolves destroyed the Imperial navy "as a direct result of rubbing the space wolves the wrong way".

2. I was citing that battle as an example of Wulfen, whom you consistently attribute to being feral madmen, not being feral madmen. I'm doubting very much that the Wulfen had much part in an Imperial navy battle.

As for Space Wolves vs. Administratum, yeah, the Space Wolves have little use for a bunch of layabouts who hold their positions generally by way of succession instead of earning them. Again though, that's nothing new to this edition of the codex.

true however, since everyone wants to cite the codex like its the holy bible, have you seen the pictures in the new codex? they look closer in facial structure to daemonettes than the humans they were created from

Looking at it right now. They still look like my good ole space vikings. Is there a specific picture you have problems with?

untold billions? I highly doubt the loss of the Space Wolves would result in a galatic session of Emo self mutilation and despair, in the Grim Darkness of the far future....no one cares.

The main tank of the Imperial Guard is the Leman Russ battle tank, named for the Primarch of the Space Wolves chapter of Space Marines. If you seriously think that destroying that chapter wouldn't have adverse effects on the Imperium's population, I don't know what else to say.

Brother Heinrich wrote:the other being blood angels?

No.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

streamdragon wrote:Cite a single one, please? Because as I said before, Codex Armageddon paints quite the clear picture of their showing up, mercilessly slaughtering the enemies of the Imperium and then leaving as quickly as they came. No eating of dead bodies, no snarling at the guardsmen whose lives the Wulfen had just saved, no "running around after a stick". In, slaughter, out, quickly and (almost) quietly.

oh sure they saved the nice little guardsmen's lives, but you're referencing one battle, and I'm not saying they attack Imperial citizens and eat them like the flesh tearers, however you can't tell me that all the Imperial navy/Inquisition personnel that have died as a direct result of rubbing the space wolves the wrong way deserved their fate because they were evil or something

streamdragon wrote:I'm not sure anyone is trying to argue that Space Wolves don't have a genetic deviancy. The Canis Helix (and the resultant growth of Space Wolves' canine teeth) is quite clearly a genetic deviation. It's also one that's been around since Leman Russ himself, so I think the Administratum is kinda forced to let it slide. It's not like they've got a third eye or tentacles growing all over the place.

true however, since everyone wants to cite the codex like its the holy bible, have you seen the pictures in the new codex? they look closer in facial structure to daemonettes than the humans they were created from

streamdragon wrote:I really, really wish I had my old Codex with me at work. It has a most excellent quote from Balthazar von Heppel about the Space Wolves, and why the Imperium is better for their existence. It simply comes down to the fact that to many of the regular citizens of the Imperium, the Space Wolves above all chapters are heroes. Destroy them, and you destroy the Morale of untold trillions.

untold billions? I highly doubt the loss of the Space Wolves would result in a galatic session of Emo self mutilation and despair, in the Grim Darkness of the far future....no one cares.


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Melissia wrote:I don't mind the change... I actually think the new codex is one of the only two Marine codices I might one day want to get into.

the other being blood angels?

You. Shoulder. Remove the Chip Off It.


You're not even referring to the recent Codex anymore, you're now referring to any Space Wolf fluff.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, rules-wise is the only real problem with the new Space Wolves Codex (and Lukas), however fluff doesn't confer exactly to rules, so that's a moot point. Just because you can now readily get Rune Priests and MotW doesn't mean it's everywhere within the Legion.

In terms of the Imperium being upset if they lost the Space Wolves? Hell yes. That's one of the original, most power and loyal Legions destroyed. That's the entire sector around Fenris compromised and the morale of much of the imperium crippled. It'd be the same as losing the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists. 1000 (over for Space Wolves) marines from a founding legion dead. That'll have a huge affect on the Imperium.

Or to look at it another way, it would barely be noticed.

1/1000th of the SM force "disappeared", with some kind of cover story if necessary.

Gradually over 100s of years the truth emerges of how they went on heroic crusade beyond the Rim, and after many battles which liberated dozens of worlds, were lost to the knowledge of Man.

Their loss is regretted but the Imperiume endures!!

Kilkrazy wrote:Or to look at it another way, it would barely be noticed.

1/1000th of the SM force "disappeared", with some kind of cover story if necessary.

Gradually over 100s of years the truth emerges of how they went on heroic crusade beyond the Rim, and after many battles which liberated dozens of worlds, were lost to the knowledge of Man.

Their loss is regretted but the Imperiume endures!!

thank you sir, that is the point I'm trying to make, listen I love Imperial Fists, but just because they are my favorite loyalist chapter, doesn't mean I believe the entire Imperium revolves around them. It's a big, uncaring galaxy out there. Now blood angels may have codex fluff that smacks of Dr. Suess' imagination, however their points cost reflects their ridiculousness, so I can live with that. Space Wolves grey hunters are now effectively Chaos Space marines with counter attack for the same points cost, while vanilla marines pay more for less on just about everything. I'm sorry if these comments step on any paws but this is my view on the current state of 40k and one of the armies therein. Deal with it.

However C:SM terminators are pretty much the best of hte bunch.

I accept it's your point, however I'd also like you to try and comprehend another perspective.

I like Space Wolves, but I listen to other arguments and I accept they're not perfect. However, they are most certainly not the pieces of [dog] s**t you make them out to be.

The Imperium doesn't revolve around the Space Wolves, however the Fenris sector (near the EOT) does. Ultramar and it's surrounding worlds would be similarly buggered if the Ultramarines were wiped out. You can't however simply lose one of the most famous and powerful Space Marine chapters and not expect people to care. The Imperium wouldn't exist without the Space Marines or the founding Legions. Arguably we would've lost Armageddon, Cadia and other sectors and key planets a long time ago without the Space Wolves. No they're not perfect (ask the Inquisition), however they are a large boost to the defence of the Imperium.

Except the two units have almost entirely different options, feel, use and fluff.
About all they have in common is they both get bolter, bolt pistol, ccw and grenades. They can take some of the same options (special weapons) but not all, get leaders differently, their Mark wargear is extremely different, etc etc.

But yeah if you ignore their special rules and weapon options and fluff and basically everything but starting gear they're totally the same

Just Dave wrote:I accept it's your point, however I'd also like you to try and comprehend another perspective.

I like Space Wolves, but I listen to other arguments and I accept they're not perfect. However, they are most certainly not the pieces of [dog] s**t you make them out to be.

The Imperium doesn't revolve around the Space Wolves, however the Fenris sector (near the EOT) does. Ultramar and it's surrounding worlds would be similarly buggered if the Ultramarines were wiped out. You can't however simply lose one of the most famous and powerful Space Marine chapters and not expect people to care. The Imperium wouldn't exist without the Space Marines or the founding Legions. Arguably we would've lost Armageddon, Cadia and other sectors and key planets a long time ago without the Space Wolves. No they're not perfect (ask the Inquisition), however they are a large boost to the defence of the Imperium.

True and I don't begrudge them the aid they've given the Imperium (from my IF pov of course ) It just doesn't sit well with me that time and time again I read fluff (Tales of heresy, Legends of the Space Marines, A Thousand Sons) wherein they keep true to there old viking ways and proud warrior traditions, none of which I have a problem with. My issue lies simply with the fact that GW says screw the mass opinion, screw the finer points of their history and traditions, and just turn the WOLF knob to 11. And the psychic powers bug me too, granted not as much as BA, but still for a highly superstitious chapter that treats all things magical(OR PSYCHIC FOR YOU GRAMMAR NAZI'S OUT THERE) in the same way one would a rotting corpse, its a little hypocritical.


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streamdragon wrote:Except the two units have almost entirely different options, feel, use and fluff.
About all they have in common is they both get bolter, bolt pistol, ccw and grenades. They can take some of the same options (special weapons) but not all, get leaders differently, their Mark wargear is extremely different, etc etc.

But yeah if you ignore their special rules and weapon options and fluff and basically everything but starting gear they're totally the same

and you, stop picking fights over semantics.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I accept it's your point, however I'd also like you to try and comprehend another perspective.

I like Space Wolves, but I listen to other arguments and I accept they're not perfect. However, they are most certainly not the pieces of [dog] s**t you make them out to be.

The Imperium doesn't revolve around the Space Wolves, however the Fenris sector (near the EOT) does. Ultramar and it's surrounding worlds would be similarly buggered if the Ultramarines were wiped out. You can't however simply lose one of the most famous and powerful Space Marine chapters and not expect people to care. The Imperium wouldn't exist without the Space Marines or the founding Legions. Arguably we would've lost Armageddon, Cadia and other sectors and key planets a long time ago without the Space Wolves. No they're not perfect (ask the Inquisition), however they are a large boost to the defence of the Imperium.

True and I don't begrudge them the aid they've given the Imperium (from my IF pov of course ) It just doesn't sit well with me that time and time again I read fluff (Tales of heresy, Legends of the Space Marines, A Thousand Sons) wherein they keep true to there old viking ways and proud warrior traditions, none of which I have a problem with. My issue lies simply with the fact that GW says screw the mass opinion, screw the finer points of their history and traditions, and just turn the WOLF knob to 11. And the psychic powers bug me too, granted not as much as BA, but still for a highly superstitious chapter that treats all things magical(OR PSYCHIC FOR YOU GRAMMAR NAZI'S OUT THERE) in the same way one would a rotting corpse, its a little hypocritical.

Well thank you for the consolation and seeing the other side of the argument.
I won't deny, Games Workshop really did go over the top with the Wolf aspect of the codex, however if you look at the core of the fluff - rather than the frilly and sparkly bits GW has added on to sell more - it's still the same old Space Wolves. Almost all chapters use Psykers, it's inevitable, Space Wolves have adapted to the modern imperium it seems, they're still not all over the chapter like a cheap coat however. If you ignore the rules (which WILL NOT confer to the fluff) then they're still the vikings at heart they used to be (and therefore still are), it's just Games Workshop has decided that Lukas the Dickster and other OTT bits of fluff would make it sell better, doesn't mean the core of them is still the same as it used to be; cool.

well hopefully we'll see them return to fold in the future, I feel a hundred year penitent crusade would make up for the slight after all I never said I hated vikings, just vikings who get fed too much twilight

Having psykers won't make them uncool but being the favourite army of 13-year olds will do it for sure.

Kilkrazy wrote:Having psykers won't make them uncool but being the favourite army of 13-year olds will do it for sure.

agreed

Well this got out of hand very quickly. After leaving the forum for awhile and coming back to it its insane how dramatic and heated this has become. lol

Quoting the codex like the bible, denouncing a fictional sci-fi faction like they were space rapist nazi's, ect.

Really I just think that GW took the last two space marine codexes a little too far with the baubles and bits with no fluff justification behind it. Just "Hey guys wolves and angels sell so well give them insane rules that dont make sense and so many wolves and angel wings they'll want to puke"

I dont mind the SW as a chapter, I used to think they were pretty cool, common space vikings that get drunk and uphold the highest honor without being all highty tighty about it, (looking at you ultraboyscouts) thats awsome! But this last codex while (very good and tournament winning) took away from that by luring new players in with the promise of werewolves and cheese (dont even get me started on blood angels flying landraider).

I rest my case by falling on a middle ground that while the Space wolves are and Iconic and unique irreplacable chapter, they have been sold out with this new codex...out.

Doug you're drunk again lol

Kilkrazy wrote:
Having psykers won't make them uncool but being the favourite army of 13-year olds will do it for sure.

agreed

I second this statement...lol

SW's use to be a rare treat to play against and were often good games because it took skilled players to use them. Now there is a guy at my flgs that's played for 2 months and hardly loses. Of course he runs an ard boyz list in friendly games, but still...not much skill in his playstyle.

Now that I see this thread and am showing up to the party late, I'll jump in here and defend my chapter.

There are differences and a somewhat evolution of the Space Wolves as they have changed from their 2nd edition codex in '95 till now. The biggest 2 that I see are the addition of the Mark of the Wulfen for the Grey Hunters and the Thunderwolf Cav units. I have an explanation for both...

First off, when GW introduced the 13th Company Space Wolf army, they introduced the Wulfen models which were very cool and only really playable with that army. Now that Codex: Eye of Terror is long gone, there are still those of us that have complete 13th Company armies and in order to make use of those models GW introduced the MOTW where we can find a way to add those models to our existing units... Personally, as I own both a regular Space Wolf army as well as a 13th Company Space Wolf army painted in the pre-heresy color scheme I use my wulfen units as Wolf Scouts when I play that army with the new codex.

Second, the Thunderwolf Cav unit is something completely new for this codex. It seems that every new codex that is written has to have some new special unit that did not exist before. Where in the 3rd edition codex we were allowed to take a Leman Russ tank in our army, we lost that and instead can now bring Thunderwolf Cav models. Is there a hint of Hollywood where the whole Twilight: Vampires vs Wearwolves thing... possibly? (Although I thought the Underworld movies did this long before the Twilght movies did.)

Regardless, the Space Wolves remain the steadfast vikings of the Astarties that they have always been.

IMO- If you really want to get into the fluff with the new codex, then look no further than with the Sagas. Taking something like Saga of the Beastslayer, and have your Wolflord run around the table trying to take down the biggest beast is awesome and makes for some great stories within your games.

And to all you Thousand Sons players out there, you're still traitors. (Yes, I read Thousand Sons as well, and anxiously await the release of Prospero Burns next year) However, you still worship chaos and thus we must purge you from the galaxy... I miss the 3rd edition codex where we could hit Thousand Sons and Dark Angels on a 3+ in hth regardless of their WS.

I think people are looking at this debate from two different directions. One half is looking at the codexs and the other half is looking at books and novels, stuff outside of the game.

Unless people have really short memories, the old third ed codex had tons of stuff named "wolf"

Wolf lords
Wolf guard
Wolf guard battle leaders
Wolf tooth Necklace
Wolf tail talismans
Wolf pelts
Wolf Scouts
wolf priests
Wulfen (mark)

Really the only things I think the new codex added that have wolf in the name are Lone Wolves (I dare you to come up with a different name that is as fitting), TWC, and wolf claws. And even at that, the new codex lost the wolf pelt wargear item.

There were other changes too. Yeah, Rune Priest gained some strong psychic powers, but lost a ton stat wise. They lost 1 WS, 1 W, 1 I, 2 A. They are no longer even close to the combat masters they used to be.

Scout always came in on your opponents table edge, now its only 2/3 of the time.

There has to be changes in order for the game to evolve. However books, now books never change. Even after 100 years. If you read Thousand Sons tomorrow, it will be the same read you had 2 years ago, and will still be the same read in 40 years. Even if by that time the SW play like the current Tau on the tabletop.

Its each individuals choice to take as what they want from each source when building the image of Space Wolves in their minds. After all, its you that needs to have fun with the army your playing.

Brother Heinrich wrote:Doug you're drunk again lol

Wouldnt ou be worried if I wasnt? lol

BEER IS GOOD!

Contio pow!

Melissia wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:the other being blood angels?

No.

What is the other one?


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And I thought there was a lot Ultramarine Haters. Can you imagine if Space Wolves were on the cover of Codex SM! The power of the haters would combine and be unstopppable!