Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

3. Traitors to the Imperium? The Space Wolves are one of, if not the most beloved chapter of Space Marines. The people love them because they do one thing that other Space Marines fail at: they actually care about the people they're protecting, not just the act of protecting them. Grimnar's hatred for the Administratum stems from the Administratum basically turning its heroes (I.e., the IG brave enough to fight off one of the largest demonic incursions the Imperium has ever faced) into slaves, all to cover its own ass. Any other chapter would just shrug, mumble something about "sucks bro, but orders..." and leave.

Sorry, but you seem to have mixed up the Salamanders Chapter with Space Wolves.

Salamanders = Providing critical support for evacuation and protection of civilians, as well as securing vital resources and materials needed to sustain them. Only chapter to not shirk at the vital but inglorious jobs such as these while other chapters kicked arse on the front. If I recall correctly, Tu Shan was hailed by Commissar Yarrick as a peoples hero. Salamanders are a peoples chapter, and arguable the only marine chapter that takes an active interest in the well being of the civilians they protect.

Space Wolves = Fought deamons with Guard. Threw a hissy when the IG components that helped them were forced into work camps and sterilised. This has little-to-nothing to do with actually liking civilians, it was their sense of honour and refusal to abandon previous brothers in arms that was the cause of consternation.

EDIT: I can't recall any fluff, even in thier codex, that claims the people of the Imperium worship and love them.

You didn't read the fluff much because it says the worlds in and near the Fenris Sector revere the Space Wolves because they always do what they can to help. I recall it being mentioned a couple times in the part of the Codex where they have the time line listing, and then they mention a world in one of the Space Wolf Novels.

And before people say the books aren't canon Remember they have the GW seal on them and the BL is owned by GW. Every employee I've talked to says they are canon.

Going of the not GW not canon means much of the Forge World stuff wont be canon either.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Sorry, but you seem to have mixed up the Salamanders Chapter with Space Wolves.

Salamanders = Providing critical support for evacuation and protection of civilians, as well as securing vital resources and materials needed to sustain them. Only chapter to not shirk at the vital but inglorious jobs such as these while other chapters kicked arse on the front. If I recall correctly, Tu Shan was hailed by Commissar Yarrick as a peoples hero. Salamanders are a peoples chapter, and arguable the only marine chapter that takes an active interest in the well being of the civilians they protect.

Space Wolves = Fought deamons with Guard. Threw a hissy when the IG components that helped them were forced into work camps and sterilised. This has little-to-nothing to do with actually liking civilians, it was their sense of honour and refusal to abandon previous brothers in arms that was the cause of consternation.

EDIT: I can't recall any fluff, even in thier codex, that claims the people of the Imperium worship and love them.

No, I admit that I overlooked Salamanders when talking about chapters that actually help people. Strangely enough, Salamanders are the second Space Marine army I play.

"Threw a hissy" is understating it on a pretty high level. It almost came to outright warfare between the Space Wolves and the Lord Adepts of the Administratum. If it wasn't for Ulrik being there to calm Logan Grimnar down...

Armageddon isn't the only example though:
The Battle for Montberg Spaceport (pg 19) shows that Bran Redmaw (mister Mark of Wulfen himself) refused to follow the Imperial Command's order to abandon the civilians of Thressiax to Hive Fleet Colossus so that the planet could be bombarded from space. He was only there resupplying, but still sent 30 Grey Hunters to shore up the defenses and train the Guard there. 6 Grey Hunters made it out, and the Imperial Command tried to force Redmaw to strip them of all honors for disobeying orders. Instead, he promoted them to his Wolf Guard as a big ole middle finger to the Administratum.

There's also Honour's End, where the Space Wolves attacked the Flesh Tearers to stop them from slaughtering the Imperial Guard and citizens who had been victims of Chaos Space Marine attacks. The Flesh Tearer's claimed to be "purging the unclean", but the renegades were long gone.

I did find the quote I was looking for!

The Space Wolves are the most barbaric of all the Space Marine Chapters. Their home planet is the harsh ice world known as Fenris, where savage tribes, from which the Space Wolves are recruited, are locked in a continual struggle for existence. Perhaps because of this, the Space Wolves have a proud, headstrong nature which makes them difficult to control or direct. But for all this, the Space Wolves are valorous and noble defenders of the Imperium, and are amongst the bravest and most ferocious warriors I have ever met. I can say without doubt that the Imperium would be a far more dangerous place without the Sons of Russ to protect it."
-Inquisitor Bastalek Grim

I also find this quote about Logan somewhat telling:

(stuff about Logan's dislike for the Administratum)...However, more than any other Chapter, the Space Wolves stand ever ready to fight the foes of the Emperor. Under Logan's guidance and fueled by his own thirst for battle (which many of his supporters claim equals that of the lgendary Leman Russ himself) the Space Wolves have defeated many threats from without and within the Imperium, and the vast majority of Imperial commanders within the sectors surrounding Fenris are grateful to be under the Old Wolf's watchful eye. Personally, if I may be so bold, I find the existence of a Chapter Master such as Logan heartily reassuring, for he is a cunning and resourceful leader of the Space Wolves, and yet has about him a charming demeanour and familiar manner which is at odds with the usual aloofness one associates with a commander of the Adeptus Astartes.
-"Leaders of the Adeptus Astartes" - A most secret report, compiled for his Most Supreme Excellency the Paternoval Envoy by his Humble Servant Master Maximoms Pliny
Page 27 of the last Space Wolf dex (not the most recent one)

Also, there is a reason Logan has the Living Legend rule.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:being a former space wolf myself (first army in 1998) I am ashamed to say I once called myself a son of Russ. the sheer hypocrasy of the new codex floors me, how can they justify the space wolves casting down the thousdand sons for being mutants and psykers, when they themselves now have some of the most powerful pychic powers/units in the game and are forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters in power armor. what happened to wulfen being outcasts and frowned upon, what happened to the superstition and mistrust of magic, why have the space vikings turned into space werewolves?!

At the time of the HH it was illegal to have Psyker Space Marines. Sometime after the Emperor's near death santioning of Psykers for military application came about which includes SM librians.

And that is still, IMNSHO, one of the greatest idiotic mutilations of the previously existing fluff canon to be inflicted by the HH books (and Visions of Heresy). Why on earth they decided to change the Emperor's ruling at the Council of Nikaea from one that made sense to on that now requires an additional "sometime after the Emperor's near death someone changed The Emperor's ruling" bit of unnecessary fluff, I have no idea. But, if the HH stuff is gospel, then there's now no current "official" explanation for why any Chapter has Librarians at all.

They took a backstory that worked, and that was consistent with all the other existing fluff AND with the game, and changed it to something that makes no sense what so ever. If there's a great payoff for that decision, I've yet to see it...

Valete,

JohnS

then there's now no current "official" explanation for why any Chapter has Librarians at all.

Because they want to sell models.

Melissia wrote:

then there's now no current "official" explanation for why any Chapter has Librarians at all.

Because they want to sell models.

Becouse they have had them since the 1st Edition/Rouge Trader Days
The 2nd Edition Book had Njal
The 3rd Edition had Rune Priest
They have always had them.

BrotherStynier wrote:You didn't read the fluff much because it says the worlds in and near the Fenris Sector revere the Space Wolves because they always do what they can to help. I recall it being mentioned a couple times in the part of the Codex where they have the time line listing, and then they mention a world in one of the Space Wolf Novels.

You have mentioned a handful of planets surrounding their Homeworld. It's hardly the entire Imperium, which is what I said. There is little sign that Space Wolves are vastly more loved or feared than the other countless SM chapters out there, and apparently only constant wolfshagging and a finger to the Administratum has kept them worthy of a seperate codex.

streamdragon wrote:
No, I admit that I overlooked Salamanders when talking about chapters that actually help people. Strangely enough, Salamanders are the second Space Marine army I play.

Only SM army worth playing really.

"Threw a hissy" is understating it on a pretty high level. It almost came to outright warfare between the Space Wolves and the Lord Adepts of the Administratum. If it wasn't for Ulrik being there to calm Logan Grimnar down...

Armageddon isn't the only example though:
The Battle for Montberg Spaceport (pg 19) shows that Bran Redmaw (mister Mark of Wulfen himself) refused to follow the Imperial Command's order to abandon the civilians of Thressiax to Hive Fleet Colossus so that the planet could be bombarded from space. He was only there resupplying, but still sent 30 Grey Hunters to shore up the defenses and train the Guard there. 6 Grey Hunters made it out, and the Imperial Command tried to force Redmaw to strip them of all honors for disobeying orders. Instead, he promoted them to his Wolf Guard as a big ole middle finger to the Administratum.

That's a good source. Thanks.

There's also Honour's End, where the Space Wolves attacked the Flesh Tearers to stop them from slaughtering the Imperial Guard and citizens who had been victims of Chaos Space Marine attacks. The Flesh Tearer's claimed to be "purging the unclean", but the renegades were long gone.

Interesting, but not that indicative of SW being 'SM of the People'. If I might use this source a little OT wise, I would rather the Blood Angels have gone down the darker path of the Flesh Tearers than this new "Awesome Codex McBatnipples". *blegh*

Finger to the Admin sounds good enough alone.
What more reason do you need.

More seriously I don't get the criticism for holding out on their sector of the galaxy. Would you send them all off all over the shop and send another chapter less familar with the area to cover? Would such strategic directives come from elsewhere so it isn't the fault of the SW's where thay are posted?

Emperors Faithful wrote:<snip>I would rather the Blood Angels have gone down the darker path of the Flesh Tearers than this new "Awesome Codex McBatnipples". *blegh*

The BA codex is an entirely separate issue. I described it to my friend as "basically, the went out and found the biggest Blood Angels fan boy they could, asked him what he'd want in a codex, and then put cherries on top of it".

I love the staunch defense of the space wolves from all comers, but when it comes to the BA everybody's a hater lol, in the grimdarkfuture there is only hypocrasy

Emperors Faithful wrote:Interesting, but not that indicative of SW being 'SM of the People'. If I might use this source a little OT wise, I would rather the Blood Angels have gone down the darker path of the Flesh Tearers than this new "Awesome Codex McBatnipples". *blegh*

Sigged

Everybody is a BA hater.

Hmmm. So does that mean nobody collects or plays BA's ?
Maybe they do but just don't admit it.

Or maybe the criticism is not for the chapter itself but for the latest power craze junkies and the GW codex that feeds the addiction.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Everybody is a BA hater.

Hmmm. So does that mean nobody collects or plays BA's ?
Maybe they do but just don't admit it.

Or maybe the criticism is not for the chapter itself but for the latest power craze junkies and the GW codex that feeds the addiction.

I'm gonna come out and say it then I'm doing a Dante/Tycho (pre-DC) led Sanguinary Guard Army with Sternguard, yes thats marine army No 7 folks while a small part of my mind goes "help me, the voices have taken over", oh and I want to do a Death Company Army with Astorath/DC Tycho and nothing but DC & DC Dreads.

I think I'm a lost cause by most peoples' standards but I'm enjoying the hobby my way. I don't hate any army.

Hoorah pip pip for lost causes mate!

do what you love I say I found that at my local Hobby shop almost 90% of people talked a whole bunch of trash when the new BA codex came out, and then several weeks later when I guess they though everyone had forgotten what they said, 90% had blood angel armies. priceless.

Ta! And now (to the same tune as the wizard of oz)

I'm off to paint the nipples, the wonderful nipples of ours!

Shadowbrand wrote:@Heinrich

Well what happened was a Khorne army full of Traitor Guard/Khorne Berserkers/Daemons attacked. And the Space Wolves came to help them out.

But even they were having a hard time so they sent the Grey Knights. Eventually they won. But all of the Armageddon Steel Legion Soldiers who knew about the Daemons where sterilized and sent to work camps.

The Space Wolves thought this was dildos so they want revenge. I also once heard from someone who had the old dex that Space Wolves fired at Inquisition ships that came by.

OMG. Have I found someone who uses "dildo" as much as me? You guys wouldn't know from what I write here,but this word plagues my mind and causes me to have irrational thoughts. "Hey, what time is it?" "It's like, half past dildo,erm..3"


Anyway, I hate the space wolves. Such mindless bastards. I hope their ancient dreadnoughts die in the flames of war

Brother Heinrich wrote:I love the staunch defense of the space wolves from all comers, but when it comes to the BA everybody's a hater lol, in the grimdarkfuture there is only hypocrasy

Are you seriously trying to compare TWC (the only unit different than the previous codex) to the mess that is the BA codex? Deep Striking land raiders? In just about every Force Org slot? Mephiston?

I mean, seriously? What about the new SW dex even remotely approaches that level of "WTF"edness?

Shadowbrand wrote:I also once heard from someone who had the old dex that Space Wolves fired at Inquisition ships that came by.

I looked into this. Turns out you are correct. At one point the Administratum showed up to look into rumors of pagan god worship and the Space Wolves opened up the moment their ships were in range; the Admin. dudes fled. A year later they show back up with the Sororitas in tow and try to forcibly land on the planet. They never made it, and eventually decided it was better to just leave. Granted, this was after Logan had made it clear that he was done with the Administratum...

Anyway, I hate the space wolves. Such mindless bastards. I hope their ancient dreadnoughts die in the flames of war

Mindless? Sure you're not thinking about Khorne? I mean, last edition the army practically played itself!

streamdragon wrote:

Anyway, I hate the space wolves. Such mindless bastards. I hope their ancient dreadnoughts die in the flames of war

Mindless? Sure you're not thinking about Khorne? I mean, last edition the army practically played itself!

What you mean like a Death Company Army does now

DEATH89 wrote:

streamdragon wrote:

Anyway, I hate the space wolves. Such mindless bastards. I hope their ancient dreadnoughts die in the flames of war

Mindless? Sure you're not thinking about Khorne? I mean, last edition the army practically played itself!

What you mean like a Death Company Army does now

cygnnus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:being a former space wolf myself (first army in 1998) I am ashamed to say I once called myself a son of Russ. the sheer hypocrasy of the new codex floors me, how can they justify the space wolves casting down the thousdand sons for being mutants and psykers, when they themselves now have some of the most powerful pychic powers/units in the game and are forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters in power armor. what happened to wulfen being outcasts and frowned upon, what happened to the superstition and mistrust of magic, why have the space vikings turned into space werewolves?!

At the time of the HH it was illegal to have Psyker Space Marines. Sometime after the Emperor's near death santioning of Psykers for military application came about which includes SM librians.

And that is still, IMNSHO, one of the greatest idiotic mutilations of the previously existing fluff canon to be inflicted by the HH books (and Visions of Heresy). Why on earth they decided to change the Emperor's ruling at the Council of Nikaea from one that made sense to on that now requires an additional "sometime after the Emperor's near death someone changed The Emperor's ruling" bit of unnecessary fluff, I have no idea. But, if the HH stuff is gospel, then there's now no current "official" explanation for why any Chapter has Librarians at all.

They took a backstory that worked, and that was consistent with all the other existing fluff AND with the game, and changed it to something that makes no sense what so ever. If there's a great payoff for that decision, I've yet to see it...

Valete,

JohnS

At the time The Emperor was still using the "Ignorance is bliss" strategy to deal with the Chaos gods. He knew about 'em but was playing it close to the vest. Turns out knowledge is dangerous when it comes to those wacky extradimensional invaders. However after the seige of terra with the numberless armies of slobbering deamons assualting the walls it was kinda hard to keep under wraps after that. So now that the cats out of the bag they'd figure they might as well sanction some psykers who know how to blow up stuff into professional stuff-blower-uppers.

By the way, to whoever said it, I checked in the codex and it said that both civilians and IG were sent to the camps on Armegeddon, not just the Guardsmen.

When the hell is "Prospero burns" coming out? I want to hate lemon rust even more.

¡best thread eva !!

DEATH89 wrote:Ta! And now (to the same tune as the wizard of oz)

I'm off to paint the nipples, the wonderful nipples of ours!

Good luck to your, sir.

streamdragon wrote:
I mean, seriously? What about the new SW dex even remotely approaches that level of "WTF"edness?

Well for one, the Chapter that isn't too fond of Psykers happens to have THE most powerful psyker model in the game. Eldrad has wet dreams about this guy. Of course, he does cost the same as your average Land Raider...

Snikkyd wrote:By the way, to whoever said it, I checked in the codex and it said that both civilians and IG were sent to the camps on Armegeddon, not just the Guardsmen.

I think it was any and all that had anything to do with the fighting or knew extensively about the nature of the invasion. For the most part, other areas of Armageddon (which had escaped attention) were untouched by the purge, or at least only high ranking officials were culled. Funnily enough, it is with a hint of just irony that the highest ranking planetary official probably worked for the rest of his life in those camps alongside the lowliest guardsman that had fought on the front lines.

You'd think the Inquisition could just mind wipe them like in Men in Black, but I guess that wasn't grimdark enough for them.

And also, TWC are kind of a "WTF!" unit, but I guess not as much as some of the stuff Blood Angels have?

Quite!
Why point pens that flash at folks when you can wipe out entire planets?

Samus_aran115 wrote:When the hell is "Prospero burns" coming out? I want to hate lemon rust even more.

It was supposed to be out immediately following "A Thousand Sons", however it has been pushed back till next year.

Anpu42 wrote:Here is my Reason, and to honest, I have been playing them since the old Rouge Trader 1st Edition Days.

Lol, so true. Not the reason i play them though. I play them because they can annihilate almost any army at close-range, or shoot da f*** outta anything. Hypocrisy is rich coming from Chaos though,