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I don't think Fatecrusher is the best Daemon list. Not by a long shot. I ran Daemons, quite successfully even, for a while and while I think Fateweaver is incredibly useful (almost mandatory for the army) I was always underwhelmed by my Bloodcrushers. They're incredibly slow and can be avoided easily.

I'd rather these new models were a little cheaper, and we got plastic Plaguebearers as well, but on the whole I really like all the models and the prices aren't so bad as to make me not buy them.

Stop putting Tzeentch and Khorne together!

As a proud owner of the original Realm Of Chaos books I can tell you that in early Warhammer lore it is Khorne and Slaanesh that hate each other and Nurgle and Tzeentch are acrimonious to each other. Tzeentch and Khorne were never bitter enemies in the original lore in spite of the Khorne eschews magic lore.

CaseyVa wrote:GW lowered the price of the old Tyranid and Ogre Kingdoms battleforce / battalion from $135 (if I remember correctly) to $90 a few years ago.

That wasn't because they were 'too expensive' though. It was simply to put all of the battle force boxes into the same price bracket, as they were already in the rest of the world.

Skarboy wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Skarboy wrote:Just buy the damn Bloodcrushers off a discount retailer and, voila, same price as the Killa Kans. I like the Fateweaver model (I know that's a mixed opinion) but doubt I'd ever use him.

If I'm buying at a discount, the Killa Kans will also be cheaper.

Yes. Quite the vicious circle. Hey, if they're too expensive, they're too expensive. Either give in and buy them, using a discount retailer to get some break, or don't. If these things don't sell, the price will go down, either from GW lowering them or from being able to pick up cheaper through third parties desperate to unload.

Hey, I really don't care. I buy almost completely used stuff, or I build with tournament winnings. I've got far more stuff to paint then I have time, and I don't play demons.

think Fateweaver is incredibly useful (almost mandatory

I'm not sure what I"m going to do about that then because I really don't want to buy, build or paint another $50 metal model. When I paint the few remaining large metal models I have that's it, it is plastic from here on out for me for large models. I own Skulltaker and the other similarly sized Daemon HQ models, so I guess I'll have to make do with those HQ choices.

BrassScorpion wrote:

Stop putting Tzeentch and Khorne together!

As a proud owner of the original Realm Of Chaos books I can tell you that in early Warhammer lore it is Khorne and Slaanesh that hate each other and Nurgle and Tzeentch are acrimonious to each other. Tzeentch and Khorne were never bitter enemies in the original lore in spite of the Khorne eschews magic lore.

I don't think that has changed, other than playing animosity down overall. Daemons of opposing gods would have to test if they came with a certain distance of eachother or change targets.

Alpharius wrote:

Skarboy wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Skarboy wrote:Just buy the damn Bloodcrushers off a discount retailer and, voila, same price as the Killa Kans. I like the Fateweaver model (I know that's a mixed opinion) but doubt I'd ever use him.

If I'm buying at a discount, the Killa Kans will also be cheaper.

Yes. Quite the vicious circle. Hey, if they're too expensive, they're too expensive. Either give in and buy them, using a discount retailer to get some break, or don't. If these things don't sell, the price will go down, either from GW lowering them or from being able to pick up cheaper through third parties desperate to unload.

Has GW EVER lowered a price on a plastic kit, especially because it wasn't selling?

Are the Greatswords still ridiculously priced?

Yup, the old 8 man plastic CSM box when it first released. They dropped it from £15 to £12 due to public outcry, hell they even refunded the difference to people that bought it as the higher price if they provided a receipt!

You know whats an even bigger fail than the classic marine price? the fact that the backpacks arent even classic.

My first two words when seeing the price on bloodcrushers: "THE FU$@?!" I mean, GW was starting to look pretty good, having some awesome models and expected to be a decent price. But typical GW business screwed it up.

Augustus wrote:Stop putting Tzeentch and Khorne together!

As an old hat player of nearly 20 years, the current game is atrociously out of canon!

Aside from the 'Khorne & Tzeentch aren't enemies - Khorne and Slaanesh are' line about the canon, the biggest problem you've got here Augustus is that the fluff is arbitrary. Notice how all the Legions went away from Chaos, and how the rivalry between the Chaos Gods is non-existent now. Ever wonder why? Well if you can't field Slaanesh and Khorne together, then a person will pick one, and not buy the other. If you can mix, people will buy both. Limiting list choices = less sales opportunities. The fluff will change to meet whatever GW needs to pimp its new models, or lines that aren't selling well. Meanwhile, all the units that people are using that don't have models yet are essentially GW's 'market research'. If something isn't being used and doesn't yet have a model, then it won't get a model and probably won't make the next Codex. But if people are fielding lots of Hellpit Abominations or Tervigons, then guess who'll be getting new models next? People fielded lots of Fateweaver/Changeling armies, not so much Skarbrand or Ku'Gath. And - oh! - look who just got new model kits. What a shock! I look forward to models of the Doom of Malantai.

And Daemons aren't in the Chaos Codex because having them separate allows for a different product line and more potential sales. Gav Thorpe even said that the 'Daemons' that exist in the 'Chaos' Codex were the only compromise that he could get - those that count the beans wanted no Daemons in the new Chaos book because they wanted two different lines.

None of this points to GW being 'evil', it just points to them being a company, a company who cares about short-term profits and nothing for their actual customers beyond seeing them as the source of said short-term profit. And I assume that Australia must be some sort of Cockney Slang for 'Short-Term Profit', as that's the only damned way to explain our fething prices...

Personally, I like the fact that GW has loosened the ability to use the different Chaos themed models together regardless of cult. I collect them all and have been doing so for 20 years and I never really liked being restricted as far as using them together.

The cheap way they did Armour Through the Ages bugged me. They used the modern backpacks and bolters rather than the older versions. Modern arms I can live with (though that is still being cheap) but if I'm going to pay for a history series then I want it to be accurate or what's the point.
They should have included both the bolter that came before the current 'Godwyn' pattern and the one before that from the RT marines (which was also used on the old rhino).
For the backpacks all they had to do was a RT type which is pretty much what the Sisters of Battle use and the standard one before the current ones came out.

Polonius wrote:$53 for three is a deal compared to $25 a piece for things like sentinels.

it's a high margin item for GW, no doubt.

Actually, it's just GW's way of testing Customer price-sensitivity.

GW did it with the SM Termies, and again with the Empire Greatswords.

If they don't sell well, GW will simply hold price for a few years.

OTOH, if people keep buying at these inflated prices, if that's what the market will bear, then don't expect GW to relent on pricing...

BrassScorpion wrote:Personally, I like the fact that GW has loosened the ability to use the different Chaos themed models together regardless of cult. I collect them all and have been doing so for 20 years and I never really liked being restricted as far as using them together.

I guess that part was OK, but splitting the Chaos armies into 3 separate, never to mix armies is what really ticked me off.

I didn't 'give in' and buy 2 new armies either...

BrassScorpion wrote:Personally, I like the fact that GW has loosened the ability to use the different Chaos themed models together regardless of cult. I collect them all and have been doing so for 20 years and I never really liked being restricted as far as using them together.

Whereas some of us liked playing to the fluff, and didn't like it being re-written simply to generate more sales due to having less restrictions.

The Blood crushers models look really cool with the black paintjob, rather than the typical red. While I had expected the box to be between $44.50 and $49.50 US, $53.75 US is still alot cheaper than the metal versions. Additionally, the new models have unique poses and different "horns" from one another, which may not matter to some, but I really think it makes a big difference in the appearance of the models as a unit. Right now, I'm torn because I had put aside the idea of a Khorne daemon army in favor of a World Eaters army, just because I find the lack of wargear/gift options a little boring (not that CSMs really has tons of options, but what is a diehard Chaos player to do these days? ), however the Bloodcrushers are really causing me to debate that decision because they look really freaking cool!.

While I do agree the cost for the set of 3 is still high, I think like most gamers I'm going to be looking for a bargain on such expensive models and there are no shortage of websites offering up to 20% off on GW merchandise. With the 20% off the box comes to $43.00 US, which is reasonable enough, for me at least.


As for the rest of the daemons releases, they look nice enough, but not really my cup of tea. Not that I was expecting it, but I'd have loved to see plastic plaguebearers, but alas, no love for Nurgle this time around.

At least be thankful that Plaguebearers are one-piece models. Of all the metal standard Daemons, they were the least offensive when it came to ease-of-build.

Fair enough, but I'm just not really a fan of the current plaguebearers. I've owned some in the past and just don't really like them. In fact, I'd be happier if FW would just make resin versions, as I like Mark Bedford's Nurgle sculpts better then anything GW has produced. Not that I expect that to happen, but it would be nice. Right now the best option, in my opinion, is converting WFB Ghouls with greenstuff. Combine them with these heads, which I think look much better then the GW plaguebearers and it's a much better alternative(and cheaper) to the current metals. Anyway, I don't want to go to far off topic with plaguebearer discussion. I need to go do some list building and see if World Eaters or Khorne Daemons will be cheaper financially and then make a tough decision. At least I'm set on which Chaos God I'm giving my allegiance to.

Whereas some of us liked playing to the fluff, and didn't like it being re-written simply to generate more sales due to having less restrictions.

People who want to restrict their army lists based on 40K lore are still free to do so, while those of us who never liked it that much are now free of those restrictions. It's win-win.

guess that part was OK, but splitting the Chaos armies into 3 separate,

It's a cyclic thing. When I started all Chaos was mixed together, then they split some of it, then allowed mixing again and now it's split. Hopefully more mixing will be allowed again in the future. I agree with you, I don't like the forced split. It would be better if you could play mixed or split as desired.

BrassScorpion wrote:

Whereas some of us liked playing to the fluff, and didn't like it being re-written simply to generate more sales due to having less restrictions.

People who want to restrict their army lists based on 40K lore are still free to do so, while those of us who never liked it that much are now free of those restrictions. It's win-win.

guess that part was OK, but splitting the Chaos armies into 3 separate,

It's a cyclic thing. When I started all Chaos was mixed together, then they split some of it, then allowed mixing again and now it's split.

No, it's Win-Lose, because certain players no longer get to impose their rules of how the game must be played nor inflict their limitations on how armies must be composed on other players who don't share the exact same vision.

Meh, it's just different kinds of splits, trading splits by Marks for splits by Units.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:Personally, I like the fact that GW has loosened the ability to use the different Chaos themed models together regardless of cult. I collect them all and have been doing so for 20 years and I never really liked being restricted as far as using them together.

Whereas some of us liked playing to the fluff, and didn't like it being re-written simply to generate more sales due to having less restrictions.

Are they penalizing you for playing by the fluff? No! All it does is allow for more gaming options!

BrassScorpion wrote:People who want to restrict their army lists based on 40K lore are still free to do so, while those of us who never liked it that much are now free of those restrictions. It's win-win.

Klawz wrote:Are they penalizing you for playing by the fluff? No! All it does is allow for more gaming options!

The idea that following the fluff is somehow 'restrictive' is, of course, an ass-backwards way of looking at it, as it is a terrible method for writing rules. I don't know how many times I have to restate this, but here goes:

Fluff and Power should be congruous. The more fluffy your army, the powerful your army should be. Want to mix Khorne and Slaanesh? That's fine. But if you take a Khorne-Only army you should gain a tangible in-game benefit for doing so ie. the more you follow the fluff, the more the game should reward you.

Believe it or not, both Jervis and Gav Thrope have stated that people often don't remember the small penalties that come with lists and units (Open Topped Vypers, Mastery Tests on Daemon Weapons), but they do remember the small rules that benefit them (free Aspiring Champions for having Sacred Number units is a good example). For this very reason it makes sense to treat following the fluff with army construction as a benefit, giving actual bonuses and advantages to armies that follow the fluff. And I'm not just talking about Chaos, I'm talking about any army. Want to take Vulkan and Shrike in the same list? Ok, fine, but you should get neither option for Chapter Tactics, where as a proper Raven Guard army should be the only one to benefit from Shrike's rules (and I'll leave the idiotic need for special characters aside for this treatise).

Should you be restricted to only fielding God-specific forces? I don't think so. But you should be rewarded for playing all-Khorne or all-Tzeentch rather than just finding the best bits of each and conjuring up a NetDeck list (Fatecrusher! YAY!).

Cadaver wrote: (not that CSMs really has tons of options, but what is a diehard Chaos player to do these days? )

Wait and hope? Play other games in the meantime?

Us canadians are suffering the most with the bloodcrusher prices. They're 64.75 for 3! WTF!?!?!?! Ah well, it's better than 99$ for 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:People who want to restrict their army lists based on 40K lore are still free to do so, while those of us who never liked it that much are now free of those restrictions. It's win-win.

Klawz wrote:Are they penalizing you for playing by the fluff? No! All it does is allow for more gaming options!

The idea that following the fluff is somehow 'restrictive' is, of course, an ass-backwards way of looking at it, as it is a terrible method for writing rules. I don't know how many times I hate to restate this, but here goes:

Fluff and Power should be congruous. The more fluffy your army, the powerful your army should be. Want to mix Khorne and Slaanesh? That's fine. But if you take a Khorne-Only army you should gain a tangible in-game benefit for doing so ie. the more you follow the fluff, the more the game should reward you.

Believe it or not, both Jervis and Gav Thrope have stated that people often don't remember the small penalties that come with lists and units (Open Topped Vypers, Mastery Tests on Daemon Weapons), but they do remember the small rules that benefit them (free Aspiring Champions for having Sacred Number units is a good example). For this very reason it makes sense to treat following the fluff with army construction as a benefit, giving actual bonuses and advantages to armies that follow the fluff. And I'm not just talking about Chaos, I'm talking about any army. Want to take Vulkan and Shrike in the same list? Ok, fine, but you should get neither option for Chapter Tactics, where as a proper Raven Guard army should be the only one to benefit from Shrike's rules (and I'll leave the idiotic need for special characters aside for this treatise).

Should you be restricted to only fielding God-specific forces? I don't think so. But you should be rewarded for playing all-Khorne or all-Tzeentch rather than just finding the best bits of each and conjuring up a NetDeck list (Fatecrusher! YAY!).

This. This would be terrific!

H.B.M.C. wrote: Fluff and Power should be congruous. The more fluffy your army, the powerful your army should be. Want to mix Khorne and Slaanesh? That's fine. But if you take a Khorne-Only army you should gain a tangible in-game benefit for doing so ie. the more you follow the fluff, the more the game should reward you.

This, this, a thousand times, this. If you want to mix factions, there should be no penalty - there are literally limitless reasons why the aims and motivations of Slaneesh and Khorne might coincide temporarily, fluffwise - but the game would be markedly improved if there were bonuses for "pure" armies. And not just Chaos, either. Rather then remove allies from DH armies, there should be a bonus to a pure Sisters/GK/etc type army.

Or rather than adding more rules ('cos as we know GW is really good at that... ) why not just make it more expensive to mix 'n' match?

For example - in chaos armies if your general has mark of <insert greater power here> then he can have units with the same mark, unmarked or undivided. If your general has mark of chaos undivided, he's one of those rare individuals who has risen to power without being tied to one particular patron deity. Such a general can have they want in an army, but make MoCU a very expensive upgrade for the general concerned...

Munch Munch! wrote:Us canadians are suffering the most with the bloodcrusher prices. They're 64.75 for 3! WTF!?!?!?! Ah well, it's better than 99$ for 3.

Yeah, more of GW's Screw Canada pricing.

http://www.darksphere.co.uk

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk

http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk

Something is wrong when an individual can get them shipped to their door for less than a game store pays for them at wholesale.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Silly British and Americans complaining about their 'high price' Bloodcrushers.

Really? US$53.75 too much for all the American Daemon fans out there? Would you rather pay US$80 like us Aussies?

Or £32.50 seem like too much for the Poms among us? Would you prefer to pay £52 instead, 'cause that's the Aussie price.



Next time y'all feel like bitching about GW prices, remember what country you're from, then STFU.

Frozen, you just made me realize that Canadians can get better deals that Americans

Wow, Wayland is actually significantly cheaper to order from than The Warstore....Yay for the British pound being so close to the dollar for a change

Gobstomp420 wrote:Players have to be charged for the extra compatibility as well as the model itself. GW is charging you for convenience.

Only GW's fanbase is rabid enough to try and justify a surcharge for the privilege of using their product.