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been a while since i read that book, which story was his?

badab war one

chowderhead13 wrote:When I got the Ledgends of the Space Marines, I had no idea about Goto. 2 minutes into his story, I threw the book out the window. His taint can only be purged with fire. Or an IP hammer if he even tries writing a book again.

I sentenced him to Death by Killer Bees many a time.

Devastator wrote:badab war one

that's funky

my copy doesn't have that story

wut?

hehe...

C.S. Goto: "I’m not somebody who is excited by violence, so it is rarely included in these novels for its own sake...."

Soapoperahammer?

Peacehammer?

Daytimemmydramawinnerhammer?

Anyone up for game?

ENOUGH OF THE GOTO HATIN'!

So he was not quite on top of the specifics of the established 40k canon. I have read his Eldar book, his short story in 'Let Gallaxy Burn', and although fluffwise inaccurate they were still engaging stories, and he wrote them fluidly and stylistically. (more than can be said for a lot of the gak library books).

You can't fault a guy for trying to use his imagination in a very restricted vacuum of a universe of fluff.

Personally I think the Farseer surfing on a Falcon is a great mental picture. They are that nimble, they're friggin space elves! They forsee when the Falcon will bank, and move and adjust themself accordingly.
Anyone who has read 'Fellowship of the Ring' will notice that nowhere does it have Legolas doing backflips on the back of the troll, and I don't believe him sliding down the trunk of an Oliphant was in 'Return of the King' either... but nobody complained when they saw it in the movie, did they? Why? Because it was cool! because it was entertaining!

Oh no! Marines with multilasers! Dan Abnet has a sidekick guy in his books who lugs around an autocannon by himself. '15 Hours' has IG grouped in squads of 5, there are plenty of indescrepancies. Eisenhorn (an INQUISITOR and Daemon hunter!!!) flips out with fear when he sees a Chaos Marine. Indescrepancies exist everywhere.

The guy is just trying to tell an entertaining story and unfortunately, his imagination is restricted by a pre-existing universe and a fan base made up largely of unimaginative nerds who criticize everything that wasn't handed to them as canon. Give the guy a break.

Guitardian wrote:ENOUGH OF THE GOTO HATIN'!

So he was not quite on top of the specifics of the established 40k canon. I have read his Eldar book, his short story in 'Let Gallaxy Burn', and although fluffwise inaccurate they were still engaging stories, and he wrote them fluidly and stylistically. (more than can be said for a lot of the gak library books).

You can't fault a guy for trying to use his imagination in a very restricted vacuum of a universe of fluff.

Personally I think the Farseer surfing on a Falcon is a great mental picture. They are that nimble, they're friggin space elves! They forsee when the Falcon will bank, and move and adjust themself accordingly.
Anyone who has read 'Fellowship of the Ring' will notice that nowhere does it have Legolas doing backflips on the back of the troll, and I don't believe him sliding down the trunk of an Oliphant was in 'Return of the King' either... but nobody complained when they saw it in the movie, did they? Why? Because it was cool! because it was entertaining!

Oh no! Marines with multilasers! Dan Abnet has a sidekick guy in his books who lugs around an autocannon by himself. '15 Hours' has IG grouped in squads of 5, there are plenty of indescrepancies. Eisenhorn (an INQUISITOR and Daemon hunter!!!) flips out with fear when he sees a Chaos Marine. Indescrepancies exist everywhere.

The guy is just trying to tell an entertaining story and unfortunately, his imagination is restricted by a pre-existing universe and a fan base made up largely of unimaginative nerds who criticize everything that wasn't handed to them as canon. Give the guy a break.

@Guitardian - I think the problem C.S. is running into here. is that, concerning our hobby, (Warhammer 40K) there is no room for "Imagination."

This is grim/dark future.

We expect accurate accounts of 'reality' in a fictional setting. Every fiction novel / setting is defined by a set of rules and standards. You have to conform to a sense of believability. It helps us identify what is amazing and what is mundane.

When you move away from 'cannon,' and begin doing whatever you want. Then you need to expect criticism...

If your break from cannon is (in short) 'awesome' then many times it replaces the cannon, and becomes the cannon it'self.

When it isn't 'awesome' ... well you get threads like this.

....I forgot where I was going with this...

BossBig'un wrote:hehe...
C.S. Goto: "I’m not somebody who is excited by violence, so it is rarely included in these novels for its own sake...."
Soapoperahammer?
Peacehammer?
Daytimemmydramawinnerhammer?
Anyone up for game?

BossBig'un wrote:I think the problem C.S. is running into here. is that, concerning our hobby, (Warhammer 40K) there is no room for "Imagination."
This is grim/dark future.

Have you read anything by Goto? It is not the lack of violence ("piles of mutilated bodies") or too much imagination (Slaanesh worshippers, Slaanesh worshippers, Slaanesh worshippers ...) that qualifies his work.
Even when for him, torturing an injured and helpless female Farseer to death for 180 pages seems not to be considered violence but sexual foreplay
He writes Eldar novels as if Eldar had raped his wife.

Guitardian wrote:ENOUGH OF THE GOTO HATIN'!

So he was not quite on top of the specifics of the established 40k canon. I have read his Eldar book, his short story in 'Let Gallaxy Burn', and although fluffwise inaccurate they were still engaging stories, and he wrote them fluidly and stylistically. (more than can be said for a lot of the gak library books).

You can't fault a guy for trying to use his imagination in a very restricted vacuum of a universe of fluff.

Personally I think the Farseer surfing on a Falcon is a great mental picture. They are that nimble, they're friggin space elves! They forsee when the Falcon will bank, and move and adjust themself accordingly.
Anyone who has read 'Fellowship of the Ring' will notice that nowhere does it have Legolas doing backflips on the back of the troll, and I don't believe him sliding down the trunk of an Oliphant was in 'Return of the King' either... but nobody complained when they saw it in the movie, did they? Why? Because it was cool! because it was entertaining!

Oh no! Marines with multilasers! Dan Abnet has a sidekick guy in his books who lugs around an autocannon by himself. '15 Hours' has IG grouped in squads of 5, there are plenty of indescrepancies. Eisenhorn (an INQUISITOR and Daemon hunter!!!) flips out with fear when he sees a Chaos Marine. Indescrepancies exist everywhere.

The guy is just trying to tell an entertaining story and unfortunately, his imagination is restricted by a pre-existing universe and a fan base made up largely of unimaginative nerds who criticize everything that wasn't handed to them as canon. Give the guy a break.

I actually disliked Legolas' antics quite a bit in the films, but that's beside the point. I can see what you mean, that perhaps many of us are inflexible in our approach to fluff, but when it condradicts key tenets to the general mythos, then we have a problem. Goto generated quite a few such instances trying to do something "entertaining" which, whilst an admirable goal, didn't really sit well with many fans. I know that quite a few Eldar players hate him for his work on their favourite race, and not because of tank-surfing (which would be feasible with Eldar, though probably impractical in a battle situation) either. It would make sense for Eisenhorn to fear a CSM, it's a bloody marine for god's sake. He's only human, after all.
Quite frankly, I feel you are trying to play down some of the "specifics" that Goto misses. He may write fluidly and stylistically, but believe me, that doesn't mean his flaws should just be overlooked because he has imagination. Other authors can do it fairly easily without it being rubbish. Take Pasanius from the Ultramarines series, for example. He has a whole bunch of stuff written about him that doesn't happen in a game, but people like it because it's not over-the-top. I can't speak for anything Dan Abnett writes, I tend not to read much of his work, but if I were to showcase an author who can BOTH write well and not run rampant, I would say Aaron Dembski-Bowden is the nearest you are going to get with his Night Lords stuff. Unfortunately, Goto does not yet realsie there are limits to what people can accept as "cool" and not "Mary-Sue."

Kroothawk wrote:

BossBig'un wrote:hehe...
C.S. Goto: "I’m not somebody who is excited by violence, so it is rarely included in these novels for its own sake...."
Soapoperahammer?
Peacehammer?
Daytimemmydramawinnerhammer?
Anyone up for game?

BossBig'un wrote:I think the problem C.S. is running into here. is that, concerning our hobby, (Warhammer 40K) there is no room for "Imagination."
This is grim/dark future.

Have you read anything by Goto? It is not the lack of violence ("piles of mutilated bodies") or too much imagination (Slaanesh worshippers, Slaanesh worshippers, Slaanesh worshippers ...) that qualifies his work.
Even when for him, torturing an injured and helpless female Farseer to death for 180 pages seems not to be considered violence but sexual foreplay
He writes Eldar novels as if Eldar had raped his wife.

Sadly I have read all his books. I am not a fan....I don't get why you quoted me?

The quote about violence is an actual quote from an Interview with C.S. Goto. - It was reflective of his "missing the point" of WARHAMMER.

The second quote was directed at Guitardian's defense of C.S. Goto, and was a civilized reply, and explained the merits of the argument many make here, possibly less than eloquently**

**i.e. see "slowed Writer is slowed"

.... please re-read both posts. Thanks.

i see what you mean.


I think Goto has a very short sighted view of the 40k universe. there is a TON of room for creativity.

the problem is when people pick up a 40k novel they expect, surprise suprise, a 40K novel. not a novel that utilizes images and people from the 40K universe in a way that realistically wouldn't happen in the 40K universe.


Goto writes 40K novels in the same style that Star Wars novels are written. basically doing whatever he wants as long as it doesn't conflict with established principals and events(except he leaves out the part about not conflicting)


Eldar and SMs uniting against Chaos forces isn't unheard of, but you better do one hell of a job explaining how, why and to what ends it is happening or i can't belive it. and the Eldar and SMs better turn on each other near the end or else...



Goto seems to forget the basic principal of 40K and it is clear he doesn't care.

"to be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions.

it is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable.

Forget the promise of progress and understanding.

for in the Grim darkness of the Far future there is only War.

there is no peace amonst the stars.

only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods"


he should go write Star Wars or romance novels where his work would be appreciated. not here where he is twisting the impressionable minds of little children as to the true reality of the 40K universe.

Please see the following example: Full of imagination, win and whimsy... but if it was published as cannon. I would quit Warhammer forever. No disrespect to the author...Commisar Steve is my new dakka Hero!!!.... but stilll....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313386.page

You just can't.... look.....away.....

Wow. So that's what Superman does these days.

No, his taint must be cleansed with a Daemonhammer, where the hell is Torquemada Coteaz?

He'll get rid of him real quick.

Kanluwen wrote:Much like alot of the laws regarding rape are created in reaction to heinous events, C.S. Goto heralded a new era of Black Library's draconian rule on their authors.

I like to call it "Goto's Law", personally.

Yes, the new rape laws are good, but it doesn't help the victims already violated.

Some of you guys have got a vision of what 40K is about and it seems you can't accept that someone else can have a different vision.

Take any number of the Black Library authors' depictions of 40k and compare them to Goto.

He is the only one, since the days of Rogue Trader and the Draco series with Soap Opera Marines falling in love with Eldar, Eldar Farseers being secret Slaanesh worshippers(which is asinine in and of itself, because even the most far flung branches of the Eldar[the Dark Eldar and the Corsairs/Exodites/Harlequins] still don't worship Slaanesh), etc.

He seems to have had little to no grasp as to what 40k was thematically 'about', which is kinda important when you're writing within an established environment.

Kilkrazy wrote:Some of you guys have got a vision of what 40K is about and it seems you can't accept that someone else can have a different vision.

No. There is a difference between "Different Version" (Like Alpharius is a Good Buy but not really but maybe he is) and "CSGotoverse" (Pedophile Slaanesh Worshiping Farseers and Karskin/Termi BFFs).

It sounds all right to me.

40K is meant to be grimdark, isn't it?

Not being disagreeable for disagreeablity's sake...

But Grimdark doesn't mean that anything goes as long as it is "grimdark."

The Imperium has been doing it a certian way for thousands of years. There are reasons that "Multilasers" aren't an option for the Space Marines. Their wargear is sacred to them. They wouldn't pick up a shruiken catapult and say "Wow this is a cool gun" ... and then use it exclusively... just as they wouldn't issue ork war buggies to thier scouts...

They might use them, but not as S.O.P. I mean, there are spoons in WH40K, but they aren't going to replace their CCW with them.... albeit it woud be imaginative... POWER SPOON!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just think that his writing is not accurate to the warhammer 40K universe.

If he isn't going to adhere to the "Setting" he shouldn't write for it.

Good writing or bad writing is a matter of opinion and we can endlessly deate the merits or demerits of it until we are green in the face.... but ultimately I think that the majority of the posts here 'against' C.S. Goto is his poor concept and retconning choices.... do you agree/disagree...???


Black Library made a poor decidion alowing him to dismiss 20+ years of GW history IRT and 40K plus years of History in the 40K Universe.

ust my $0.02.

Kilkrazy wrote:It sounds all right to me.

40K is meant to be grimdark, isn't it?

Again, I would have to disagree. As Boss Big 'Un has pointed out, Grimdark isn't a licence to do whatever you feel like. The Eldar as a race have a very long history and character in the game's universe, and a lot of what Goto has written goes against that character completely. Slaanesh, for example, isn't out to get the Eldar to worship him, he just wants to eat their souls (as well as other things, but hey, let's not go there.) The whole reasons for the spirit stones every Eldar wears is so their soul doesn't go into the warp and be eaten by Slaanesh. I'm not saying that authors should stick to what's been done before - indeed, creativity in some of the BL books would be great - but there is a difference between creativity and nonsense.

GW frequently 'retcon' stuff themselves.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW frequently 'retcon' stuff themselves.

True indeed, but not to that extent, I'm sure you'll agree. Or maybe they do; my memory isn't great. Either way, that's a key part of what the Eldar are about, and therefore extremely unlikely to change. The fact that Goto ignored that is what caused so much anger.

Just chalk it down to unsubstantiated rumours.

Kilkrazy wrote:Just chalk it down to unsubstantiated rumours.

Wouldn't surprise me. There was a rumour once that the BA codex would have marines riding giant vampire bats a la Thunerwolf style. You go figure that one out.

Instead we god The Blood Blood Blood Talons with the Blood Fists and the Blood Chalices and the Blood lances and the Blood Armours with BFF FOREVER Necrons.

Mat Ward = CS Goto 2.0

Gwar! wrote:Instead we god The Blood Blood Blood Talons with the Blood Fists and the Blood Chalices and the Blood lances and the Blood Armours with BFF FOREVER Necrons.

Mat Ward = CS Goto 2.0

He's not as bad as that. Yet.

Give him time, though, and...

@Boss Big'Un

I actually have a old citadel lead figure of a space marine scout with an eldar shuriken catapult, which makes your idealism of the space marines wrong and wrong again.