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Nurglitch wrote:Making Wings for Daemon Princes cost 60pts is what it takes for there to be an honest choice for players between taking Wings and not taking Winds.

the Dreadnought only shoots at the closest unit in its 45 degree weapon lines of sight, not the unit of Chaos Space Marines directly behind it and not visible to it.

While 20 pts is too low (should be 25 for most HQs), Wings on a Daemon Prince is not worth 60 pts - that's paying more than a CSM Rhino, for pity's sake. He doesn't hit has hard as full squad of Cult Marines or Chosen, so he shouldn't pay more. A Rhino is 35 pts, so I'd charge up to 30 pts for Wings on a DP, 25 on a Sorceror. But really, Wings have been overpriced for far too long, so encouraging mobility by default is a good choice. What's a real error is not having Wings (and Icon/Marks) available for the Greater Daemon.

I think that we would all like to see the Crazed argument removed. You're wrong, BTW. A Dread can see 360 degrees, and *will* shoot the Daemon Prince standing behind him.

If 60 pts was worth spending on Wings for a Daemon Prince, we wouldn't see any Daemon Princes without Wings. Wings double the utility of a Daemon Prince, allowing it to hunt vehicles, Deep Strike, and use weapons like Wind of Chaos more effectively. Wings should be priced accordingly.

Speaking of vehicles, I recommend you read the Line of Sight rules for Walkers. Walkers are vehicles and have lines of sight defined by their ranged weapon mounts, which on Walkers have a 45 degree arc to their front. If a unit is not within one of these 45 degree front arcs at the beginning of the shooting phase, it is not visible to a Chaos Dreadnought in a Fire Frenzy. So as it turns out, your opinion is the one that is wrong. Which is why the rule needs to be clarified so that you don't continue to advocate for such an opinion.

Crazed definitely needs to stay in the next version of the Codex as it makes Chaos Dreadnoughts a lot of fun to play and encourges players to use tactics that reduce the risk of fratricide, rather defaulting to a particular configuration when they take Chaos Dreadnoughts at all.

Take the current codex.
Shred it.
Burn it.
Take the 3.5e codex.
Start from there.

Fix points costs, update everything to 5e, make options for every chaos Legion, throw in some new units that everyone will buy, print it.

Reprint the 2nd edition codex with the Abaddon cover art redone.

Walkers can pivot about their waist 360 degrees, ergo, 360-degree LOS.

We need something like a venerable dreadnought. It loses crazed, gains +1 BS and WS and can take something different that a regular DCCW. Like a blood talon, except chaosy. Of course, this would bring its cost up to at least 150 base...

JohnHwangDD:

Indeed, and if under the influence of Fire Frenzy then they pivot towards the closest, visible unit. That means there has to be a unit that is the closest unit and a unit that has to be a visible unit, and that once there is one unit that satisfies both of these conditions, then the Dreadnought pivots towards it. Ordinarily a Walker can pivot in the Shooting phase before checking for range and line of sight to a target, but as in so many things, special rules take precedence over general rules.

Samus_aran115 wrote:We need something like a venerable dreadnought. It loses crazed, gains +1 BS and WS and can take something different that a regular DCCW. Like a blood talon, except chaosy. Of course, this would bring its cost up to at least 150 base...

+1 to this idea.

As well as this, I would like fire frenzy tweaked in the next dex so that the closest *enemy* units are targeted first, with friendly units only targeted if no enemy units are in range. I would also like to see blood rage being replaced with fire frenzy on the crazed table if the dread has no DCCW equipped (or if its current DCCW weapon has been destroyed).

Uhhh... I don't quite think that's what he meant. But that's a pretty good point. I, for one, would like to see the marks removed, except for Undivided. Nobody uses them. Also, possessed that don't suck, and maybe a couple pages showing a couple special rules (one good, one bad) that you can take for free and play a specific Legion.

You know, I really don't know the difference in editions since I just started. Has the CSM been nerfed in the past or something? Can anyone give me a n00b break down

disel24 wrote:You know, I really don't know the difference in editions since I just started. Has the CSM been nerfed in the past or something? Can anyone give me a n00b break down

The old book had extensive wargear, rules for every legion, and interesting fluffy options. The new one is a pale, boring shadow of the old one.

It's not about power, it's about options, fun, fluff. The new one is at least as powerful than the old one.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Walkers can pivot about their waist 360 degrees, ergo, 360-degree LOS.

Yes, but you measure LoS after you roll, don't you? Which means that, if there was nothing in the 45 degree arc when fire frenzy is activated, nothing is visible to it, then fire frenzy won't shoot at anything.

I'd pay 30 points for wings for a Demon Prince. 60 is too much. And I noticed tonight that hive tyrants are getting overcharged for wings too.

Crazed needs to either change back to the way it was last codex, or be removed completely. Dreadnoughts aren't supposed to be a liability.

bosky wrote:Reprint the 2nd edition codex with the Abaddon cover art redone.

I approve of this plan.

But no Typhus in 2nd....
I like my manreaper.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'd pay 30 points for wings for a Demon Prince. 60 is too much. And I noticed tonight that hive tyrants are getting overcharged for wings too.

60 points to five that beast of a unit jump abilities is not too much.

juraigamer wrote:I'm reasonably happy with the codex, sure a few things could use some tweaking, such as making the friggin demon prince not die from massed bolter or lasgun fire so easily, but there is one glaring thing that bugs me...

WHY do the special characters, direct servants and favored by a single chaos god NOT have ETERNAL WARRIOR. WTF. Honestly. Also cultists would be great.

My personal favorite is Lucius the Eternal not having Eternal Warrior....

-Loki- wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'd pay 30 points for wings for a Demon Prince. 60 is too much. And I noticed tonight that hive tyrants are getting overcharged for wings too.

60 points to five that beast of a unit jump abilities is not too much.

60 points is too much for any one model to get wings. I don't care if it's a demon prince, hive tyrant, or what have you. 60 points is too much for any one upgrade.

Give me a real Codex so that I can start using my Thousand Sons again!

Noisy_Marine wrote:60 points is too much for any one model to get wings. I don't care if it's a demon prince, hive tyrant, or what have you. 60 points is too much for any one upgrade.

I'd pay 60 points to give a Phantom Titan or Warlord Titan wings.

I wouldn't pay 60 points for any current 40k model to get wings.

For a 40k model to pay 60 pts for wings, I'd need it to be like at least:

WS6 BSx S6 T6 W3 I5 A6 Sv3+/5++ with a Power Weapon

Basically, I need it to *reliably* kill 4 Space Marines or any common Vehicle on the Charge, and with only 4 Attacks, a Demon Prince isn't quite good enough to do that. 6 WS6+ Attacks will hit 4 Marines or 1 moving Vehicle, so that works just fine. 4, not so good.

If you want A5+1 WS7 S6 attacks, get a Daemon Prince with the Mark of Khorne.

one important thing we're missing is a suitable adjective. space wolves have wolf, blood angels have blood, we have..... nothing. personally I won't be satisfied until every single fething piece of wargear in the chaos codex is described as a demon this or a demon that. I want demon marines with demon bolters and a demon special rule running around doing demon things all over the battle field. with their demon-ness.

abaddon=gargamel wrote:Uhhh... I don't quite think that's what he meant. But that's a pretty good point. I, for one, would like to see the marks removed, except for Undivided. Nobody uses them. Also, possessed that don't suck, and maybe a couple pages showing a couple special rules (one good, one bad) that you can take for free and play a specific Legion.

wat

I want to be able to take four blastmasters in a unit of havos with MOS....Seems reasonable to me.

me too. sorry not marks. icons. you're either a noise marine or you arent. no more icons.

I play CSM as my main army and I still don't understand the difference....

Marks= Lords and stuff?
Icons= Grants marks to all models in unit?

currently marks only apply to hq choices. in the last codex most units could take them. the mark was the only difference between a unit of normal guys and a unit of cultists. putting the mark of slaanesh on your csm made them noise marines, for instance. icons had special 1 shot abilities, usually a shooting attack. now icons just make your guys half-assed cultists....

Samus_aran115:

A Mark of Chaos confers the associated bonus to the Marked model, with the Marks borne by specific units like Berzerkers being worked into their profiles. So a Chaos Lord with a Mark of Khorne has A4

A unit with an Icon also get the benefits of the particular Mark, and can act like a teleport/summoning beacon, but only so long as the model equipped with the Icon survives. When he is removed as a casualty, the unit no longer benefits from the Mark.

Nurglitch wrote:Samus_aran115:

A Mark of Chaos confers the associated bonus to the Marked model, with the Marks borne by specific units like Berzerkers being worked into their profiles. So a Chaos Lord with a Mark of Khorne has A4

A unit with an Icon also get the benefits of the particular Mark, and can act like a teleport/summoning beacon, but only so long as the model equipped with the Icon survives. When he is removed as a casualty, the unit no longer benefits from the Mark.

So then why the hell do we pay 40 points for a 4++?

And also, that's bullcrap. No wonder no one really puts icons on CSM units.

Firstly, it's 40pts for a 5+ Invulnerable save for Chaos Space Marines. For the purposes of comparison, that's a Force Dome that can't be dispelled, and that costs 1/2 of a Space Marine Librarian, doubles as a teleport homer, and diversifies a unit. That's 4pts apiece for a unit of ten. It works in close combat and against shooting, and gives Chaos Space Marines a Iv5+ against things like Battle Cannons, Plasma Cannons, Thunder Hammers, and the like.

Secondly, yes, people really do put Icons on Chaos Space Marine units. The most popular is the Icon of Chaos Glory, but I personally like the Icon of Khorne.

With all due respect, Possessed and Thousand Sons do not suck.

Get rid of generic Greater and Lesser Daemons in favour of the ones from Codex: Chaos Daemons. No Soul Grinder though-Chaos Space Marines already have the Defiler.

Add some special characters from the Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion. Prehaps the Word Bearers could get the Warmonger (the Chaos Dreadnought from the Dark Apostle series). He could be a beefed-up Chaos Dreadnought without the "Crazed" rule, and a rule saying that all friendly units within 6" of him are Fearless, due to his inspiring presence.

Dreadclaw Drop Pods would be good. Legion special rules would be awesome-Hooray for Word Bearers! And how about a Chaos Land Speeder?