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no they don't, that was my point!

I was not really trying to lift that to make it seem you were saying otherwise, sorry if it read that way.

I was trying to add to your statement. Ooops.

of course not ! if the opponent has a point more than you it could mean that they fit in an overpowered unit or upgrade!

asmith wrote:I really am suprised people are so hung up on having the points match exactly.

It's not that the points need to match exactly. It's that a point limit is the maximum you can take.

I often times field armies that are a few points below the maximum if there's no upgrade I want. And, with mech Eldar, there's no cheap upgrade for anything less than 10 points

That means sometimes I have an army with more points than my opponent, and sometimes my opponent has more points than me. But, we both have to be at or below the limit we agreed upon.

It's hard to communicate 100% clearly on the internet, I have the same problem myself a lot of the time.

I really would like to get some response on this because it seems like everyone is solidly on one side of this issue, and to my point of view even something as large as 5-10% of the point total difference would be largely invisible to most players in most games. I mean it's one thing if you are the two best generals in the world playing the two most point optimized lists in the world (I still think thing like who goes first could trump a 5% point difference), but to most players playing friendly games it doesn't make a lick of difference.




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@ Grakmar: Why couldn't it equally be the approximate number of points you were going to play at?

If I'm over I tend to offer my opponent the chance to match me. "Can you add another 15 points?"

If they can't, or don't want to, I'll cut down to 0.5% over. I think that's a negligible amount.

asmith wrote:@ Grakmar: Why couldn't it equally be the approximate number of points you were going to play at?

So long as both players are aware before building their list that it is only an approximate value, that's not a problem.

But if you agree to a points limit, then that limit is as high as you can go. Again, that's the whole point of it being a limit.

For those who think that holding an opponent to the points limit is over the top, what's the point of agreeing to a set limit if you are going to ignore it? Surely the player who has agreed to a limit and then expects to be allowed to ignore it is the one being unreasonable, not the player expecting that the agreed limit should be treated as what it is.

If those 5 points really have such a negligible impact on the game, cut them from the list and save arguments.

0. As others have said, it's a limit for a reason. Take off a man, or cut a gun somewhere. It'll make you a better player, and you'll learn what's really necessary, versus what you're adding just to add.

@ insaniak: You have a point there!

but how many people are that clear that it is a points limit? We usually have a conversation that goes something like:

"how many point?"

"Oh I dunno... 1850?"

Is it a stated rule or generally accepted convention that the point number is a hard and fast limit?

insaniak wrote:
If those 5 points really have such a negligible impact on the game, cut them from the list and save arguments.

That's really the point I've never seen a response to. If the x number of points REALLY is so negligible, why can't you cut it to get down to 2000 or 15000 or whatever?

why worry about it at all? the difference is negligible. (that's the point I'm trying to make anyway)

asmith wrote:but how many people are that clear that it is a points limit?

Everybody should be. It's clearly listed as such in the first step of the 'Organising a battle' sequence on page 86 of the rulebook.

Consider me informed I guess.

Seriously, yah, I don't allow opponents to go over the limit. If he's like, "I'm 8 points over!" I'm like, "I guess this space marine here (knock one over) had a heart-attack before the battle. Ah well, I guess the Emperor's Finest aren't all they're cracked up to be."

It is a point limit, not a suggestion. You can be under, but not over.

That is one rule I pretty much don't bend on.


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insaniak wrote:

If those 5 points really have such a negligible impact on the game, cut them from the list and save arguments.

It is another Termagant for me, or Melta bombs for a justicar, or another skink. Yeah, 5 points is a noticeable and and potentially game changing number.

i may seem like a hard a$$

for me the limit is the limit if i say 1500 points i dont mean 1502 or even 1500.000000001

usually if you come to a gaming store, id carry a list('s) with you at all times. esp if your carrying your army around

I'm ok with one or two points over, with special consideration for any other Dark Angels Codex users. I know from experience how hard it is to balance armies from that book, so 5 to 10 points over is ok with me in that instance. (Note: I do hold myself to a different standard; I expect all of my armies to fit completely under the assigned limit, even if I have to break theme slightly to comply. I'll find a good reason fluff-wise.)

daedalus wrote:

The_Savior wrote:
Also, I think some people are missing the point of friendly games...

Might as well call it "Serious Practice Time"

Kinda hard to find that some people can't play a game with even 1 extra point. It's a game... pure and simple.

Okay, lets play Risk, but I get 2 more territories than you, and I get to pick those off the top, before we roll off to see who picks. No? How about tennis and we start 15-love? How about you serve with your offhand? A friendly game should be friendly, but it should be fair. When you're munchkining in more points, the underlying premise of it being 'friendly' or 'sporting' goes away.

"I'm sorry you consider it fluffy that your Tac Squads all have a TLLC Razorback. Perhaps you should rethink some other portion of your army to make it work?"

How about this, how about we just up the amount to how much you're (hypothetically) over, and you give me 10 minutes to rework my list?

I don't play risk, nor I don't like tennis.

However... I've played games where you start at a disadvantage and won.

It's a challenge nonetheless even if it's a mistake.

I'm okay with this on Warhammer, being the fact I've played before with 200-400 points less in my lists before.

If I can handle it, you can handle it.

I can see where you're coming from... I'm guess I'm just a little more friendly. Also I guess you could say I just don't care... I'm not one of those look at my W-L-D record people, so yeah.

Re: topic

0

Being new, when I entered this topic I thought I'd allow a few extra points, just to keep things smooth and steady. After reading through it, I've changed my mind.

zero or under.

asmith wrote:why worry about it at all? the difference is negligible. (that's the point I'm trying to make anyway)

Thales, said to be the first philosopher, argued that there was no difference between life and death. “Then why not die?” he was asked. He shot back, “Because there is no difference.”

When I said I was OK with being a bit over in friendly games, I simply meant if we're in a rush and my opponent didn't have time to add up a list precisely... or if I want to handicap the game and/or it's no big deal since I'm helping someone learn the rules.

I've actually been a few points over in a friendly game before, and it shocked me... but ended up not being a problem to my opponent, either.

RiTides wrote:When I said I was OK with being a bit over in friendly games, I simply meant if we're in a rush and my opponent didn't have time to add up a list precisely... or if I want to handicap the game and/or it's no big deal since I'm helping someone learn the rules.

I've actually been a few points over in a friendly game before, and it shocked me... but ended up not being a problem to my opponent, either.

i assume this is under the concept that your at his house making a list on the fly.

normally when i know when im going to play (witch is the only time ill bring my army out) ill acually carry a folder with a 500-1000-1500-2000-3000-10000 point lists.

i also usually make them so if its from 3000-10000 i can just dupe certian parts of the list for them....or i bring my labtop xD

If they allow me to go over, I'll let them go over the same amount of points.

0. I have never been over, asked if I could be a little over, nor allowed my opponent to be over. If we are playing a game at 500,1000,1500, or 2000 it is that number or lower. That's simply how the game is. Then again I play to win and in competitive environments.

Personally I have a free range of maybe 5-10 points apart.

It's just a bit more friendly that way.Sometimes one model is just one or two points over the limit,you can hardly drop a 25 point Noise Marine because of a few points are over the limit.

Anyway,having an extra twin-linked bolter kinda fails to make an impact fighting against a 2000 points army led by Calgar and Tigrius.

But I like having exactly 2000,since it's a nice round number,and I keep my interchangible squads the same points value for easy rotation.

The points limit is a limit.

1. The one game-deciding combiweapon may be exactly those five points he was over, and then what?

2. If a minor difference doesn't matter, then define minor. Isn't 50 points minor in a 2500 points game? That's one SM trike right there, not to mention what other armys could field for that amount. And once you define minor (for example as 0.5%), a 2000-points-game suddenly is a 2010-points-game. And hey, sorry, but I'm over by five points, 2015, that's minor, isn't it? In the end, you'll be playing a rather one-sided 3000-points-game.

[/sarcasm] Scr.

In a friendly, 5-10pts (and then I'll equal it).

In a tournament, not one point over.
It's called a 'points limit' for a reason.

Asherian Command wrote:If they allow me to go over, I'll let them go over the same amount of points.

If both people are playing at or below the same agreed upon value, no one is going over.

This is the same as simply deciding to play a higher value game.
The problem is that by (deliberately) going past the agreed upon value, and then informing your opponent that he should take an extra xxx points is being . . . shady at best.

If you are making lists together (or at the table anyway) it does not have to be a matter of "going over" so much as having a floating value that you both aim for. "Let's go 1500. . .hmmm, I cannot seem to figure out how to remove an upgrade instead of a model so I am at 1505--want to play that instead?" is more than acceptable most anywhere I have seen.

If the lists were pre-generated it will (generally) be much harder for your opponent to get use from the extra points that you (deliberately abused your agreement to) generate your list around from the start.

So be a sport and honor your agreement.

This is entirely different than making a mistake.
I played a guy who accidentally went over by almost 20% of the value of the game. After figuring it out, it was simply a matter of laughing and finishing with the lists were started with anyway. I lost but had a grand time doing so, and have happily played the same guy since--with only the occationally ribbing about his math skills.

I think I'm in the camp that says in competitive play there should be no extra points over.

However in friendly play, especially one of those really ad-hoc on the spot games, I will allow points over in certain cases.

For example, if they have 1000pts list, and they add a 5pt upgrade, then that is uncool, because they intentionally exceeding the limit and gaining an advantage in the process. However, say I am playing someone with a unit that must be 10 models minimum, and they have enough points for 9 models, but adding one more takes them to 1007, then I will usually let the extra 7 points slide as it means I won't be sat there scratching my backside (and wasting valuable hobby time) waiting for them to re-structure an on-the-spot list.

As for me, my ork list comes in at 998 pts, hasn't changed for about 18 months, and I still suck at winning games!