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As a new player for this game Its nice to see people are generous. I remeber back with more than one game the Zero Tolerance for Overage policy people had even friendly games. Now I get the deal with a Tourny and a pre-planned army, there is just no excuse for your points to be over at all in that kind of scenario.

However I consider myself as a good example, I'm still learning the scoring curve that goes with WYSIWYG, and I must say it is quite different from any other miniature game I've played where the individual pieces are very static in abilities

Solorg wrote:Seriously, yah, I don't allow opponents to go over the limit. If he's like, "I'm 8 points over!" I'm like, "I guess this space marine here (knock one over) had a heart-attack before the battle. Ah well, I guess the Emperor's Finest aren't all they're cracked up to be."

*cough cough* tool.

Shadowmarine wrote:

Solorg wrote:Seriously, yah, I don't allow opponents to go over the limit. If he's like, "I'm 8 points over!" I'm like, "I guess this space marine here (knock one over) had a heart-attack before the battle. Ah well, I guess the Emperor's Finest aren't all they're cracked up to be."

*cough cough* tool.

Lmao

But, I don't like it when people go over, I won't make a space marine palpitate, but it isn't right. In friendly matches that is, in tourneys it is a no-no..

So, after 4 pages, perhaps we've finally reached a consensus.

Friendly games A.) Many people allow up to 1% over for newer players, or for a hastily created list, which is then matched. The goal being to segue as soon as possible into...


Friendly games B.) It's a jerk move to ask for extra points, since it's puts your opponent into a bad spot: allow it and be at a disadvantage, or make him into TFG - so, no extra points.

OR

Tournaments: NO EXTRA POINTS EVER. NO MERCY. NO REMORSE.

so maybe we can sticky this or something and never have this thread again.

Ouze wrote:So, after 4 pages, perhaps we've finally reached a consensus.

Friendly games A.) Many people allow up to 1% over for newer players, or for a hastily created list, which is then matched. The goal being to segue as soon as possible into...


Friendly games B.) It's a jerk move to ask for extra points, since it's puts your opponent into a bad spot: allow it and be at a disadvantage, or make him into TFG - so, no extra points.

OR

Tournaments: NO EXTRA POINTS EVER. NO MERCY. NO REMORSE.

so maybe we can sticky this or something and never have this thread again.

/agree

Good call bro

In a tournament, never that's cheating bro.

In a friendly game, I adopt a slight grin, look at my opponent, and say, "XXX points ehh? I could use XXX points." 9 Times out of 10 my opponent will usually withdraw their request.

pogo wrote:usually if you come to a gaming store, id carry a list('s) with you at all times. esp if your carrying your army around

But how do you tailor your list to give you the best chance of beating the other guy (who actually had a list ready)?!!!

Why do so many people not have lists ready? I can only assume that it's so they can list-tailor.

Scott-S6 wrote:

pogo wrote:usually if you come to a gaming store, id carry a list('s) with you at all times. esp if your carrying your army around

But how do you tailor your list to give you the best chance of beating the other guy (who actually had a list ready)?!!!

Why do so many people not have lists ready? I can only assume that it's so they can list-tailor.

Perhaps because they don't happen to know at what point value they will be playing that day. Personally I prefer to play at 2000points and above. But if the only guy at the game store wants to play 1500 points instead I'll compromise and say how about 1750? Sometimes you just have to make a list up on the spot. If they game is planned ahead of time you should have no problem bringing a list w/ the right amount of points.

On another not, sometimes I mess w/ people that List tailor. I'll whip out 3 Land raiders and set them on the table before the game starts. When the other guy finishes building his list I'll set the LR's back in box and pull out the pieces I actually plan on fielding.

Ouze wrote:So, after 4 pages, perhaps we've finally reached a consensus.

Friendly games A.) Many people allow up to 1% over for newer players, or for a hastily created list, which is then matched. The goal being to segue as soon as possible into...


Friendly games B.) It's a jerk move to ask for extra points, since it's puts your opponent into a bad spot: allow it and be at a disadvantage, or make him into TFG - so, no extra points.

OR

Tournaments: NO EXTRA POINTS EVER. NO MERCY. NO REMORSE.

so maybe we can sticky this or something and never have this thread again.

I can agree with this. Can we get this stickied in the hopes that this topic won't come up again next week?

This thread pops up a few times a year.

The correct answer is 0 points over.

Teach the new players the importance of knowing how to calculate points.

Points values aren't speed limits: there are rules. 1,500 points means less than or equal to 1,500 points. To ask for an exception to this is already making you TFG.

pogo wrote:

RiTides wrote:When I said I was OK with being a bit over in friendly games, I simply meant if we're in a rush and my opponent didn't have time to add up a list precisely... or if I want to handicap the game and/or it's no big deal since I'm helping someone learn the rules.

I've actually been a few points over in a friendly game before, and it shocked me... but ended up not being a problem to my opponent, either.

i assume this is under the concept that your at his house making a list on the fly.

normally when i know when im going to play (witch is the only time ill bring my army out) ill acually carry a folder with a 500-1000-1500-2000-3000-10000 point lists.

i also usually make them so if its from 3000-10000 i can just dupe certian parts of the list for them....or i bring my labtop xD

I was making a list on the fly, but wasn't at his house- I had anticipated playing at a different point level then we ended up playing, and didn't have one ready.

Also, to those saying confidently you've "never" been over- well, if you've been playing for a long time, or try out different lists, I honestly doubt it. I say this, because I thought so myself- and the only reason I found out that it wasn't true for me, is that I went through my list again after the afore-mentioned game, and discovered I was in fact 4 points over.

I'm pretty anal about this stuff. No matter how careful you are, if you mix things up a lot, do pick-up games, and have been playing for a long time, it's bound to happen to you. That said, I'm talking about playing friendly games at varying points levels. For a tournament, I check my list probably 10 times... so I'm reasonably confident that that hasn't (and won't) happen.

As to having lists for every point level ready and on-hand... your above lists jump over all the 250 increments (common for fantasy), and now people are starting to play things divisible by 4 for percentage purposes. I used to carry a list for every 250 point increment, and this still happened to me.

Anyway, food for thought...

Thaylen wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

pogo wrote:usually if you come to a gaming store, id carry a list('s) with you at all times. esp if your carrying your army around

But how do you tailor your list to give you the best chance of beating the other guy (who actually had a list ready)?!!!

Why do so many people not have lists ready? I can only assume that it's so they can list-tailor.

Perhaps because they don't happen to know at what point value they will be playing that day. Personally I prefer to play at 2000points and above. But if the only guy at the game store wants to play 1500 points instead I'll compromise and say how about 1750? Sometimes you just have to make a list up on the spot. If they game is planned ahead of time you should have no problem bringing a list w/ the right amount of points.

Totally. But some people never seem to have lists ready in advance.

None. I always make my lists under the value, never over. I don't care if that flamer is an extra five points and you're at 1497 points. You can't have it.

My group has an informal "I'm over on points. Deal with it!" agreement. : )
We all know and trust each other, so we know we're not going to hose each other on something.
If we're a point or 3 over, it's okay. Once you hit the point where you're over by the cost of wargear, though... lose the wargear.

You're 10 points over? No. Lose a melta gun or something.
If you're 5 points over & you've got a 5 point piece of wargear somewhere, then drop it.

At a tournament, though, no leeway.

Eric

Zero. A points limit is just that a LIMIT. I mean there is no reason to be over, if you are just drop a 5 point upgrade/special weapon.

However I will handicap myself if against a newer player by reducing my cap. Not only will this make me a better player by forcing me to play down but it also allows the newer player a good game where he can learn how to deal with threats in smaller amounts as opposed to being face-rolled. Kind of the Allergy shots theory. Start small & build it up until you can deal with it properly.

"I'm just a little over my points limit, but I'll just have a slight point advantage"

"I'm just an inch out of charging range, but I'll just push them a little bit further"

"I just missed with my Melta gun, but I'll just go ahead and hit the vehicle"


Not much difference really.

I learned another thing on this thread: people are very bad at analogies.

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:"I'm just a little over my points limit, but I'll just have a slight point advantage"

"I'm just an inch out of charging range, but I'll just push them a little bit further"

"I just missed with my Melta gun, but I'll just go ahead and hit the vehicle"


Not much difference really.

So, by that logic, driving a little over the speed limit isn't that different from high treason.

Interesting.

As much over a they want. When i inevitably get beaten i can find comfort in the fact i could never have won. In fact i hate it when they are under, it gives them an 'excuse'...... Haha seems i have created an ouruborous...

No points over. As so many people have pointed out, even little bits of equipment can have a big effect on the game.
That combi flamer that you bought could decimate a unit of orks, or those melta bombs could stop a land raider.

Polonius wrote:

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:"I'm just a little over my points limit, but I'll just have a slight point advantage"

"I'm just an inch out of charging range, but I'll just push them a little bit further"

"I just missed with my Melta gun, but I'll just go ahead and hit the vehicle"


Not much difference really.

So, by that logic, driving a little over the speed limit isn't that different from high treason.

Interesting.

If you tend to compare a 7" charge to the crime of High Treason, than sure, why not.

Wow, that executioner is going to get quite the work out.

Well, that, or you accept that different violations of rules have different impacts on the systems that the rules are designed to uphold, which would be the general point that Polonius was making.

Which leads onto my point that instead of analysing how big an impact the violation would have on the outcome of the game, simply accept it as you would any other game rule and not violate it.

A single boltgun very rarely ever makes a difference to the outcome of game, so why are you much less likely to hear someone ask "You don't mind if we just say that one hit?"

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:Which leads onto my point that instead of analysing how big an impact the violation would have on the outcome of the game, simply accept it as you would any other game rule and not violate it.

Except people violate game rules all the time. How often have you allowed an opponent to backtrack and move a unit, or use an Eldar psychic power, or play with non-WYSIWYG models, or any of the other courtesies that are often exchanged in casual games?

Why is allowing somebody to be a few points over any different from other violations of game rules that make the game more interesting for both parties?

A single boltgun very rarely ever makes a difference to the outcome of game, so why are you much less likely to hear someone ask "You don't mind if we just say that one hit?"

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:Which leads onto my point that instead of analysing how big an impact the violation would have on the outcome of the game, simply accept it as you would any other game rule and not violate it.

A single boltgun very rarely ever makes a difference to the outcome of game, so why are you much less likely to hear someone ask "You don't mind if we just say that one hit?"

Because that extra hit could potentially kill the trygon that was going to charge the following turn, causing the whole game to crash and burn.

I have played WHFB and I was 500 points under my opponent. It gave me a challenge, and it is a game so why not?

Were I to enter a tournament? I would be at or below the limit but never above. Bringing more points than allowed to a tournament is cheating (and high treason).

In any other game - who cares? We routinely have armies that are 1857 points rather than 1850 or 2002 points rather than 2000 or whatever. Hell, the last event we held didn't even have points limits. It was just "take what you want and go". We have games of 2000 points fighting 4000 points, and 1500 points taking on 1200 point armies. We had a blast.

Polonius wrote:So, by that logic, driving a little over the speed limit isn't that different from high treason.

Dude, driving over the speed limit is high treason. Everyone knows that!

insaniak wrote:It would depend on the situation. And the opponent.

In a tournament setting there shouldn't be any leeway at all. The points limit is the limit. That's why it's called a limit.

In a friendly game, I'll generally not mind a few points here or there if you're making a list up on the spot. If you're walking into a gaming session with a prepared list though, frankly there's no excuse for being over.

I wouldn't refuse to play, particularly if given time to adjust my own list accordingly... but I do consider it poor form.

I would have to agree with Insaniak with this one. It ok to be under, but never over. Not even a single point

MagickalMemories wrote:You're 10 points over? No. Lose a melta gun or something.
If you're 5 points over & you've got a 5 point piece of wargear somewhere, then drop it.

I'd prefer my opponent to be 5pts over than to start the "this meltagun is actually a flamer" nonsense.