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According to Kohn (_No Contest_, 1986) the drive to win games at all costs is due to modern Western cultural mores which equate success at life, and also one's own self-image and self-esteem, with success at competitions, including everything from games to sports to grades to promotions. So, Kohn would argue that a person who actually feels frightened of losing, and unhappy when they do lose, rather than just enjoying the game for its own sake, has poor self-esteem. He would go a little beyond that and claim that the desire to play games at all is basically unhealthy and predicated on low self-esteem, but he is some kind of a commie.

I find this funny.

If *I* was playing Grey Knights, I'd refuse to play YOU, because it would be too easy, and I would have no fun.

My enjoyment is largely predicated on challenge, thanks.

Crimson Devil wrote:To answer your question. Yes it does.

Don't judge people based on their army choice. You don't know how long the "Cheesey powergamer" struggled through the bad time with an old codex. Case in point; The GK deserve a powerful new dex.

Each codex goes through the same pattern.

Stage one: Wild rumors; "OMG it's so broken that Grey Knights shoot lascannons out their butts!"
Stage two: The new codex is the CHEESE! I hate bandwagoning power gamers!"
Stage three: Normal play
Stage four: "The fluff is nice, but that army is definitely a second tier list."
Stage five: "I can't believe you still play with that codex. You must like losing."
Stage six: "Our codex is so old and busted. We need lascannon butts!"

Based on your logic no-one in their right mind will ever get to stage 4 with the abortion that is the GK fluff.

Subjective assessment alert!

I enjoyed the fluff.

Does ducking a certain codex make you a bad sport? Yeah, kind of.

Of course this comes from a guy who doesn't want to play an opponent who tailors his list to fight yours right before the game (which I consider to be extremely poor sportsmanship), so take it as you will.

Etna's Vassal wrote:Does ducking a certain codex make you a bad sport? Yeah, kind of.

Of course this comes from a guy who doesn't want to play an opponent who tailors his list to fight yours right before the game (which I consider to be extremely poor sportsmanship), so take it as you will.

Your example is not merely poor sportsmanship, but cheating. That person is a gak, and should be punched in the balls if they will not modify their behaviour. Or ostracised, whatever gives you more satisfaction.

Elessar wrote:Your example is not merely poor sportsmanship, but cheating.

Cheating? Seriously? A little extreme there...



King Ghidorah

Agree with Stalker.

At OP, yes, I do feel like it is bad sportsmanship.

If someone takes the time and resources to obtain a 40k army I have no issue playing them regardless of what army.

I hate playing Tau, it just frustrates me, but I do. I also mostly and in it for the collecting, modeling/painting and when I play I don't expect to win so I have no problem playing whatever army.

However, it's your time and if you don't want to play a certain army, short of a tournament, no...you don't have to. It's your choice.

My friend that plays Tau will only play my Tyranids, as he refuses to fight space marines at all. I find that attitude ridiculous, and that's is what I'm against. I have 3 armies, so fine, I'll use that one, but he only has Tau, and I hate Tau, so what if I had the same attitude?

Hope any of this makes sense for you?

Elessar wrote:Subjective assessment alert!

I enjoyed the fluff.

I suppose there had to be 1 person in the world that enjoyed that awful pile of tripe Ward wrote, that goes so much completely against what grey knights are/were that his work is NOT fluffy in the slightest, add to that awful models for the characters, monkey and transformer and I can see allot of good solid justification for people not playing against grey knights

Stella Cadente wrote:

Elessar wrote:Subjective assessment alert!

I enjoyed the fluff.

I suppose there had to be 1 person in the world that enjoyed that awful pile of tripe Ward wrote, that goes so much completely against what grey knights are/were that his work is NOT fluffy in the slightest, add to that awful models for the characters, monkey and transformer and I can see allot of good solid justification for people not playing against grey knights

This is why I love GW gamers What defines fluff? The source material. If someone writes the source material, it is impossible for it not to be fluffy. There's new fluff and people have such a hard time swallowing it (who doesn't love having their chaos army docked fluff points at a tournament even though the book was designed to mix and match and legion play is completely impractical...).

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

Elessar wrote:Subjective assessment alert!

I enjoyed the fluff.

I suppose there had to be 1 person in the world that enjoyed that awful pile of tripe Ward wrote, that goes so much completely against what grey knights are/were that his work is NOT fluffy in the slightest, add to that awful models for the characters, monkey and transformer and I can see allot of good solid justification for people not playing against grey knights

This is why I love GW gamers What defines fluff? The source material. If someone writes the source material, it is impossible for it not to be fluffy. There's new fluff and people have such a hard time swallowing it

there is a massive difference between a change in fluff and the words of a complete moronic muppet who has no idea what he is doing at the best of times, yet is still allowed the free will to be in charge of new books rewriting every single last bit of fluff and turning something like the grey knights into chaos worshipping, transformer humping, captain scarlet impersonating retards of the highest caliber.

I've played a few games as grey knights, except for a few models (Im looking at you culexus assassin) the're no where near as cheese as everyone acts like they are. The fluff is a different story but I digress, they die like every other marine and aslong as you act accordingly you'll be able to win.

p.s. with all the death anti-daemon stuff you'd think the're fighting daemons in fantasy.

Stella Cadente wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

Elessar wrote:Subjective assessment alert!

I enjoyed the fluff.

I suppose there had to be 1 person in the world that enjoyed that awful pile of tripe Ward wrote, that goes so much completely against what grey knights are/were that his work is NOT fluffy in the slightest, add to that awful models for the characters, monkey and transformer and I can see allot of good solid justification for people not playing against grey knights

This is why I love GW gamers What defines fluff? The source material. If someone writes the source material, it is impossible for it not to be fluffy. There's new fluff and people have such a hard time swallowing it

there is a massive difference between a change in fluff and the words of a complete moronic muppet who has no idea what he is doing at the best of times, yet is still allowed the free will to be in charge of new books rewriting every single last bit of fluff and turning something like the grey knights into chaos worshipping, transformer humping, captain scarlet impersonating retards of the highest caliber.

Yup. Yet I have this sneaking suspicion you would still be one of the guys who says "those two chaos gods wouldn't work together! $(@#&$(@*$!!!" The back story can be rewritten, and that's one of the weaknesses of relying on a company to produce you're fun.

I'm not sure where all the Chaos Worshipping came from when reading the book. I'll admit, Draigo's story is.. well... I'm sure there aren't many who don't scratch their heads at that... but other things aren't so bad. I like the idea of the Purifiers. I wish that they did more to make the Dreadknight seem as if it had been there before, but it doesn't have very good background. 'It's alien? It's Imperial? It's... What?' Yeah, no one knows, and that's good enough I supposed.

Really some harsh criticism passed on the opening poster. I'm not 100% sure that it's bad sportsmanship. Heck, when Blood Angels came out, that's the only army out there that I had to play against, and I just.. stopped playing for a bit until some people strated not wanting to play them anymore. Why? Because I got bored of playing against Blood Angels. If the reason you stop playing Grey Knights is because you get tired of seeing the same army over and over again, I don't think that's bad sportsmanship to just head home.

The only difference is, if you agree to play someone, and then decide not to only AFTER they say they're playing Grey Knights, no good. Go to the store, if you don't see someone you want to play.. you can always head back home and paint.

Hell with ducking GK. I'm gonna duck playing that Eversor Assassin! That frikkin thing is the deadliest it has EVER been. Bye-bye Farseers...



King Ghidorah

Stella Cadente wrote:
I suppose there had to be 1 person in the world that enjoyed that awful pile of tripe Ward wrote, that goes so much completely against what grey knights are/were that his work is NOT fluffy in the slightest, add to that awful models for the characters, monkey and transformer and I can see allot of good solid justification for people not playing against grey knights

Awful models? Really? Draigo's face is kinda funky but you can just give him a helmet and he looks fine. Crowe is a solid figure. The Jokearo is up to taste, but well sculpted. The dreadknight is downright goofy, but I'm not wretching just looking at it or anything.

Ghidorah wrote:Hell with ducking GK. I'm gonna duck playing that Eversor Assassin! That frikkin thing is the deadliest it has EVER been. Bye-bye Farseers...



King Ghidorah

Must be a typo, since the Eversor is the WORST Assassin now.

So long as your playing GK and not powergaming the dakka out of it, no one should have a problem.

ChrisWWII wrote:The only time I would refuse to play against them would be if the player was one of the type of people who constantly bandwagon jumps. If I know and see that the same grey tactical marines have been Vanilla Marines then Wolves, then Angels, and are now becoming Grey Knights, THEN I would refuse to play. If I play the guy and he turns out to be an annoying d-bag, then I'll refuse to play them no matter what army they take.

However, in the end it's up to you. I would call it poor sportsmanship to refuse to play an opponent just because they're Grey Knights, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

QFT

Thank you for taking the thoughts directly from my brain.

Never duck out of a battle. Especially Orks; you should be the first to jump at the chance to fight them.

It's the Orky thing to do.

Brother SRM wrote:Awful models? Really? Draigo's face is kinda funky but you can just give him a helmet and he looks fine.

the face is one yes, the pose is another awful point, static, fat and weird, especially the sword arm, and its too busy as always for a GW model, which looks stupid.

Brother SRM wrote:Crowe is a solid figure.

if by solid you mean as static as possible with a stupid friggin daemon sword, then yes he is "solid"

Old curmudgeon says: Grey knight used to be just a simple unit entry. Why are they deserving of their own codex? There is no Codex: Devastators, no Codex: Genestealers. Can I play against them with my codex: Chaos Lord? Well, I'd rather play against them with my Codex: Monolith army. I personal could care less about their rules or models, I wouldn't play them on fluff principle: there are no Daemons in my army.

Exception. I would play an apocalypse game of Imperial forces (Guard and/or Space Marines) with some (small amount) Grey Knights allies if I was taking a Chaos (chaos space marines and Daemons) army, as this is more in line with the fluff. (And also it would be awesome!)

Shoot them dead. Plain and simple.

Let's see. Name calling and even threats of violence. Over the overpowered Speds Mahreens of the month.

Objective *and* entertaining.

Though I admit that I'm surprised that my heritage wasn't called into question.

sourclams wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:Some people are WAAC.

I think this is the point you're trying to make, but WAAC is not 'plays a competitive list'. Ducking anything that you think will be 'hard' to play against so that you can stand a better chance of winning exhibits more of a WAAC mentalilty than people who have picked up Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Grey Knights as their new army.

If that is actually your point, then I'll just say I've elaborated on it.

sourclams wrote:

Pacific wrote:I'm trying to understand the mindset of the OP but I really can't. It's a bloody game, have you got some kind of rule where if you lose a trapdoor opens beneath your feet and you fall down a tube and into a pit of crocodiles?

It's the WAAC mindset, pure and simple. You don't have to actually be any good at the game to be a WAAC player.

I love you sourclams.

Your stance, boiled down, seems to be 40k is a game where each codex has a power value, and a higher value will automatically defeat a lower value. I posit to you, sir, that you are wrong in several ways. Putting aside the intricacies of the meta game, and the tuning of the lists, and all that other stuff - the fact is, that some players just suck no matter what army they run. I guarantee you that if i played Dashof pepper with GK he could beat me with literally every other codex out; because he is a great player and I am a very poor one.

So, the the debatable fact over which codex is or is not more overpowered is largely irrelevant. People still will build poor lists, make poor choices, and have bad luck.

I still don't see the problem. I looked at the codex, the purifiers ability only hit on a 4+ and still normal armor saves apply. Those are some of the best odds an Ork can get.

Killem with Nobz or MANZ. At that the Purifiers are an elite choice so there are only going to be three groups of em and a unit is like 4 and a unit leader.

Didn't see anything too scary.

They will still krump tha same.

Unless I take crowe... then it's troop choice

Ouze wrote:Your stance, boiled down, seems to be 40k is a game where each codex has a power value, and a higher value will automatically defeat a lower value. I posit to you, sir, that you are wrong in several ways. Putting aside the intricacies of the meta game, and the tuning of the lists, and all that other stuff - the fact is, that some players just suck no matter what army they run. I guarantee you that if i played Dashof pepper with GK he could beat me with literally every other codex out; because he is a great player and I am a very poor one.

So, the the debatable fact over which codex is or is not more overpowered is largely irrelevant. People still will build poor lists, make poor choices, and have bad luck.

Good post, though I would contest the existence of the 'metagame'.

I'm torn either way as I can see both sides of this coin. Is intentionally not playing against someone who uses a certain army bad sportsmanship? I'd say yes. By the same token if you are going to have no fun because said army is to OOT and OP, why waste your time?

Granted we don't know how GK are gonna play yet. Whats scarier is if GK do end up being way OP and it starts driving off players from the hobby or starts causing people not to play against them.