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Rymafyr wrote:Whats scarier is if GK do end up being way OP and it starts driving off players from the hobby...

That's not scary at all. It will never happen. There have been other armies that have had a new Codex come out and they were WAY op. People will figure the GK out, just like the Iron Warriors scare of 40kv.3.5, just like every other army/codex before and since. Then, a new codex will come out and everyone will flock to that and this argument will pop up again.



King Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Whats scarier is if GK do end up being way OP and it starts driving off players from the hobby...

That's not scary at all. It will never happen. There have been other armies that have had a new Codex come out and they were WAY op. People will figure the GK out, just like the Iron Warriors scare of 40kv.3.5, just like every other army/codex before and since. Then, a new codex will come out and everyone will flock to that and this argument will pop up again.



King Ghidorah

Speculative 'if' there Ghidorah. And honestly, it will take only one time for it to happen to really hurt the hobby. At best such an army would be removed from tournament play at worse you would have loads of people refusing to play against an OP army even in pick-up games. You say it would never happen but nobody plays to lose every single game against one army. Even the 'illusion' of balance is far better than actually having one army that is an auto win.

I'm not saying GK are this army, but I am presenting a point based on the continuing OTT nature of Ward Marines. Here's to the hope he writes the next CSM codex. It will be awesome to read the fluff about how a single lowly chaos convert slices and dices his way into the golden throne and carves all four of the chaos gods' names into the emperor's dried out husk of a heart.

I will not disagree with most of your statements regarding OP codices. Not at all. However, my reply was less speculative than your offering about people stopping the support of 40k because of OP codices. Again I say, that will never happen. In fact, the mere thought of it is, to me, wilely fantastic and ulta-dramatic. Maybe an isolated customer or so, but nothing en masse and certainly not anything that would affect GW's bottom line.

Never-ending unreasonable price hike will likely do that well before OP codices ever will.



King Ghidorah

Rymafyr wrote:

Ghidorah wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Whats scarier is if GK do end up being way OP and it starts driving off players from the hobby...

That's not scary at all. It will never happen. There have been other armies that have had a new Codex come out and they were WAY op. People will figure the GK out, just like the Iron Warriors scare of 40kv.3.5, just like every other army/codex before and since. Then, a new codex will come out and everyone will flock to that and this argument will pop up again.



King Ghidorah

Speculative 'if' there Ghidorah. And honestly, it will take only one time for it to happen to really hurt the hobby. At best such an army would be removed from tournament play at worse you would have loads of people refusing to play against an OP army even in pick-up games. You say it would never happen but nobody plays to lose every single game against one army. Even the 'illusion' of balance is far better than actually having one army that is an auto win.

I'm not saying GK are this army, but I am presenting a point based on the continuing OTT nature of Ward Marines. Here's to the hope he writes the next CSM codex. It will be awesome to read the fluff about how a single lowly chaos convert slices and dices his way into the golden throne and carves all four of the chaos gods' names into the emperor's dried out husk of a heart.

1) Fluff is irrelevant to game balance ;
2) That story would be even more hilarious than the baying of the sheeple and the MONTHS of nerd-rage ;
3) Ward's books are balanced against each other.

You *seem* to have fallen for the trap of thinking multiple books, in fact, half of the books released this Edition (or maybe more) are Overpowered. This CANNOT in fact be true. Where that happens, they are in fact the baseline, and other things can only be called underpowered, not the reverse.

If you mean only the fluff is OTT, then so what? It always has been.

You're right that IF that happened it would be very bad for the hobby - but it DID happen throughout 2e and 3e. Hobby's still here, and, if anything, better.

Ultimately you are right, pricing will be their downfall. It most certainly is the reason I buy very little from them anymore. Admittedly my statement is over speculative but to be truthful most of us in this hobby are 'ultra-dramatic' and have a huge investment of ourselves in our toy soldiers.

The idea is sadly already germinating as this isn't the first thread I've seen where 'not playing army X' was being considered. I've thought about it myself but for me, since I get so few chances to have a match, I refuse no offer to play.

I don't understand why someone would duck playing GK for fear of them being overpowered or whatever. They die like Marines just the same, and their killing power is greatly overstated. Even if you're playing as a daemons player, you've got enough anti-Marine stuff that will eat them alive, like Bloodletters and flamers.

I welcome a GK opponent so I can pop his rhinos with my autocannons then pulp the expensive Marines inside with my battle cannons. Nothing in that codex is especially terrifying unless you're running a similarly elite army; the only armies I can see having real trouble against GK are similar power armored elite armies. The prevalence of power/force weapons is bothersome.

Elessar wrote:1) Fluff is irrelevant to game balance ;
2) That story would be even more hilarious than the baying of the sheeple and the MONTHS of nerd-rage ;
3) Ward's books are balanced against each other.

You *seem* to have fallen for the trap of thinking multiple books, in fact, half of the books released this Edition (or maybe more) are Overpowered. This CANNOT in fact be true. Where that happens, they are in fact the baseline, and other things can only be called underpowered, not the reverse.

If you mean only the fluff is OTT, then so what? It always has been.

You're right that IF that happened it would be very bad for the hobby - but it DID happen throughout 2e and 3e. Hobby's still here, and, if anything, better.

1) I never said Fluff was relevant
2) The short thought of a story line I proposed was intentionally meant to be as OTT as possible and intentionally sarcastic since it's a mirror of fluff from the GK codex.
3) That's a presupposition since the GK codex was just released and if true, then people should only play Ward Marines against other Ward marines as Tyranid, IG and DE are obviously not Ward books.

The rest is just a matter of perspective. Granted if the new baseline is Ward books then everything else is underpowered. However, the divide still remains.

Ultimately the point being made is about 'fear' as BrotherSRM pointed out. The OP is asking if it would be bad sportsmanship to refuse playing against GK. Obviously the thing driving such a thought comes down to fear. Fear of losing a game, being humiliated, having your army decimated etc. And even if you don't think that fear is a rational thing, since this is only a game of toy soldiers, every single person has it.

Rymafyr wrote:... but to be truthful most of us in this hobby are 'ultra-dramatic' and have a huge investment of ourselves in our toy soldiers.

100% QFT. Truer words are rarely spoken here.


King Ghidorah

When I read the new GK codex---I don't think poor Orks.

I think poor Nids.

Poison Gaunts still run over GKs like everything else. *Shrug*

Difficult, but not auto-lose, fo' sho'.

I'd be more worried about Inquisition lists than any pure GK armies.

Considering most lists will probably have Purifiers---the thought of two purifier squads hitting a Gaunt unit---would make the Tyranid side of me wince.

Elessar wrote:Poison Gaunts still run over GKs like everything else. *Shrug*

Difficult, but not auto-lose, fo' sho'.

I think it is rude to tell a player " I won't play against you because you play (insert list)". I had some guy tell me that and it was me and another friend there we just ignored him and ge sat alone.

This is a social hobby and it's part painting modeling and part playing games if it be friendly fluff or competitive. If you want to be a jerk and say you play a Matt ward book then stop playing 5th edition cause he had a hand in that as well.

Getting back to your orginal question, yes ducking a GK army makes you a bad sport. It makes it sound like all you care about is winning and since you don't feel you can do that then you are going to stay home a pout. Yeah its probably for the best anyways since you most likely would give your opponent a miserable game just to prove whatever point you are trying to make. I understand that playing cheesy overtooled tourney lists somewhat sucks and its a reason I too tend to avoid most tourneys as well, but if I show up for open gaming I play whatever and whoever wants a game. You sound like the local a-hole in every store who wont play kids or customizes his list depending on his opponent. Whatever, sit in your corner and brood, you wont be missed.

I wouldn't let anyone proxy anything that does not look alot like it. If he can have blood angels as gray knights i can have orks without any arms as gray knights too.

That would be entirely fair, if he's proxying. If his army is Counts As, and WYSIWYG despite colour scheme, then no.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Worglock wrote:I don't play tournaments and I've already made it well known locally that I will not play against anyone with a Ward Knights army (which was added to my standing moratorium against playing against Ward Angels.)

And it's not even that I think the army is that good (and that Stormravens have a drug coating on them that forces people that use them to pile as many points into the thing as possible and then go flat out so they get shot down and lose half their army.) It's the principle of people jumping on the latest M. Night "Herpaderpadoo" Ward pile of gak.

How can you tell if someone "jumped ship" to Blood Angels? What about people that played them before last April, people that joined the hobby after April, or even people that always liked the Blood Angels but didn't want to play with a PDF codex?

Agreed, if someone refused to play me because they were morally opposed to the authour of my Codex I'm pretty sure I'd laugh at them.

The meaningless vitriol in that post was hilarious.

I agree with the reply, except that I don't play BA or GK so I'd be laughing at the person who just refused to play some other guy. Either way, BA aren't even scary enough to justify Worglock's original bout of prejudice. It's almost as though he suffers from some ingrained hatred of Mat Ward... and I don't see how that can be inherited.
Is it possible that he formed this opinion by taking a similarly baseless forum post as absolute and irrefutable fact?

AgeOfEgos wrote:Considering most lists will probably have Purifiers---the thought of two purifier squads hitting a Gaunt unit---would make the Tyranid side of me wince.

Elessar wrote:Poison Gaunts still run over GKs like everything else. *Shrug*

Difficult, but not auto-lose, fo' sho'.

You should try getting your two 20+ model Ork units multicharged by two remaining Purifiers... I don't think I've ever felt so ashamed as a player!

Two Purifiers? They shouldn't have been able to multi-charge. Diagram plox?

MajorSoB wrote:Getting back to your orginal question, yes ducking a GK army makes you a bad sport. It makes it sound like all you care about is winning and since you don't feel you can do that then you are going to stay home a pout. Yeah its probably for the best anyways since you most likely would give your opponent a miserable game just to prove whatever point you are trying to make. I understand that playing cheesy overtooled tourney lists somewhat sucks and its a reason I too tend to avoid most tourneys as well, but if I show up for open gaming I play whatever and whoever wants a game. You sound like the local a-hole in every store who wont play kids or customizes his list depending on his opponent. Whatever, sit in your corner and brood, you wont be missed.

Way to add constructivley to a topic, Oh and also personally attack someone and assume alot about them. I feel that purifiers not only charging but on BEING charged can potentially wipe out 12 to 15 models out of a 30 strong squad with low saves is a terrible rule, and that they are spammed to take advantage of this lack of foresight rule for maximum benefit. Just as many people think longfangs are way undercosted for their abilities (which have been proven in more than one tournament recently). But I dont see the point in telling you this, since your just an alt troll account with 15 posts.

Just play the game no matter what silly list your oppoennt brings.

And as an Ork player what's the worst that can happen? You get wiped out? Well that's okay then because that doesn't counts as an Ork loss now, does it?

cgage00 wrote:I think it is rude to tell a player " I won't play against you because you play (insert list)". I had some guy tell me that and it was me and another friend there we just ignored him and ge sat alone.

This is a social hobby and it's part painting modeling and part playing games if it be friendly fluff or competitive. If you want to be a jerk and say you play a Matt ward book then stop playing 5th edition cause he had a hand in that as well.

At the same time, it's not all that much fun to show up looking for a friendly game at your FLGS and run into a guy who brought his WAAC tournament army that will wipe the table with you. I enjoy the challenge of tournament play, but I also enjoy playing more casual laid back games against non-netlisted fluffy armies at times.

If I show up with a non-competitive army and agree to play a WAAC army the game isn't really fun for either player as the WAAC guy isn't challenged and the non-WAAC guy doesn't stand a chance.

I'm not saying that GKs are some kind of vastly OP army, but there are some nasty builds that I'd shy away from playing if I show up with a non-competitive army. I may want to come back and challenge the same army the following week with my tournament build and test my skills and list against it.

Augustus5: You've pretty much described the core of the gaming hobby. It's always been this way.

augustus5 wrote:

cgage00 wrote:I think it is rude to tell a player " I won't play against you because you play (insert list)". I had some guy tell me that and it was me and another friend there we just ignored him and ge sat alone.

This is a social hobby and it's part painting modeling and part playing games if it be friendly fluff or competitive. If you want to be a jerk and say you play a Matt ward book then stop playing 5th edition cause he had a hand in that as well.

At the same time, it's not all that much fun to show up looking for a friendly game at your FLGS and run into a guy who brought his WAAC tournament army that will wipe the table with you. I enjoy the challenge of tournament play, but I also enjoy playing more casual laid back games against non-netlisted fluffy armies at times.

If I show up with a non-competitive army and agree to play a WAAC army the game isn't really fun for either player as the WAAC guy isn't challenged and the non-WAAC guy doesn't stand a chance.

I'm not saying that GKs are some kind of vastly OP army, but there are some nasty builds that I'd shy away from playing if I show up with a non-competitive army. I may want to come back and challenge the same army the following week with my tournament build and test my skills and list against it.

If he isn't trying to cheat, it isn't at 'All Costs'...

Surtur wrote:Scream Waaaaagh in their face until they leave. A surrender is still a win for you!

LOL THIS IS SO AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elessar wrote:
If he isn't trying to cheat, it isn't at 'All Costs'...

By that same logic, if he isn't pointing a gun at you it isn't "All Costs":

Haha, I wish there was a '+karma/like' option on this forum

Orock wrote:

MajorSoB wrote:Getting back to your orginal question, yes ducking a GK army makes you a bad sport. It makes it sound like all you care about is winning and since you don't feel you can do that then you are going to stay home a pout. Yeah its probably for the best anyways since you most likely would give your opponent a miserable game just to prove whatever point you are trying to make. I understand that playing cheesy overtooled tourney lists somewhat sucks and its a reason I too tend to avoid most tourneys as well, but if I show up for open gaming I play whatever and whoever wants a game. You sound like the local a-hole in every store who wont play kids or customizes his list depending on his opponent. Whatever, sit in your corner and brood, you wont be missed.

Way to add constructivley to a topic, Oh and also personally attack someone and assume alot about them. I feel that purifiers not only charging but on BEING charged can potentially wipe out 12 to 15 models out of a 30 strong squad with low saves is a terrible rule, and that they are spammed to take advantage of this lack of foresight rule for maximum benefit. Just as many people think longfangs are way undercosted for their abilities (which have been proven in more than one tournament recently). But I dont see the point in telling you this, since your just an alt troll account with 15 posts.

No, I was correct on everything I assumed about you! FYI, the reason I have so few posts is because there is so little here on Dakka worth commenting on. You can justify your reasoning behind not wanting to play GK with all the pointless math hammer that you would like, but in the end you come off as someone who prizes winning well above every other part of this hobby. Good job, again if I want to find you I am sure you will again be sulking in the corner or packing up your toys and heading home since no one want to play your way. The fact remains I answered your question just like many others who posted here and YOU didn't like what you heard.

Only the two sentences of your post were a response to his question. The rest of it was largely hostile invective that you presupposed onto him based not upon what he wrote, but your own feelings on someone you've never met.

I think it best we draw this to a close here for now.