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What is wrong with everyone! If people like Dash get your backs up then you have no hope.....Yes Dash, you may be a good player, and i would love to give you a game sometime (although me living across the pond, this seems impossible) and yes, i like a challenge as much as the next person. In a game of 40k, if its serious as most Tourny's are, you are playing against the person as well as the army.
If your oppo comes out full of himself and oozing cofidence, then you are gonna think 'Hang on, can I really beat this guy?'. What Dash says is in essence true, however i dont really need to know about your personal life or how blissfull your married life is, or even how much money you make....im here to play a game of 40k. So just get on with it!


Peace.

In my time, I have seen all kinds of players. I've played great ones, and ones that made me want to put my head through a wall. I've actually got a friend who plays 40K who is kind of like Dash. A great amount of my experience in the game has come from playing him. It took me a few years, but I finally beat him in a straight-up competitive game. I just wanted to see if I could do it....finally. I'm not going to jump into the back and forth, but there are some points he makes that are valid, if only from a standpoint of actually improving your game via experience.

Anyways, more to the point of the thread, I see the "WAAC" style of play as the real threat to the hobby. That goes well beyond the whole competitive vs over-competitive vs fluffy play argument. An old store I frequented had one player who literally cheated his way right out of the store. Players recognize it and refuse to play that type of player. Fast forward to today and a new shop and new games other than 40K. We had a FoW player who we literally had to sit down and explain why we weren't playing with him. The final straw was when he started playing German marching tunes after his PanzerGernadier Army won a game. Not cool. It was doubly bad when we realized he was playing with excessive point lists. I literally saw the guy for the first time in three or four months last week. Dunno if the lesson was learned or not, but we'll see. I told him I would play him. Maybe giving him a good game and not treating him like a pariah might help to bring him back to the fold.

I think, at the end of the day, if you really don't like the attitude of a particular player, then you shouldn't play that person. Other than showing them up (which sometimes can be satisfying on its own), why cause the frustration to yourself? The other side of this though, you don't get better playing soft targets. I guess it is all about balance and what you are willing to put up with.

I think I see the real problem with the discussion between Dash and CadianComander. If what Cadian said is true then as a female player of 40k, (there really is such a thing?) then even though you both are typing in english you really aren't speaking the same language. Interpretation wise at any rate. Otherwise there wouldn't be such a thing as classes on communicating in a relationship. What I heard from what you said was... ect ect. Strange but true the genders do not communicate or interpret things the same way.

So back to the tabletops to have fun!

I think there are definitely a lot more PTW types, but that's coincided with the new SW and BA codices.

It's impossible for them to lose

Zakiriel wrote:I think I see the real problem with the discussion between Dash and CadianComander.

Except that it wasn't just CadianComander.

Anyone who can take my answer to "You're a little man out to prove something" and turn it into "Dash is an an obnoxious braggart" has communication issues with me. It is further reinforced when the parties responsible for such gross misinterpretation have the spelling capability of eight year olds. It is inflamed when said eight-year old grasp of concepts is offensively sprayed across Dakka.

And this is why I could never be a moderator here. Willfully stupid people offend me, I believe they are second rate citizens without the ability to contribute to the world or society, and they should not be allowed to participate in intellectual conversation.

My ban button would be hard at work. All day long. Dakka would become readable again, have more content rise to the top, but its readership would go waaaaay down. Well, at least its logged-in readership. Then again, I firmly believe that most of the people contributing to the noise ratio on Dakka have no interest in its content anyway.

Topically - that's what I consider a TFG on the internet.

That kind of attitude is probably why people argue with you/object to your opinions.

A few of your posts are amusing, educational and cool

but this last one is about as far from it as you can get. It is as bad on an "intellectual level" as the ones you accuse of all sorts :/

Dashofpepper wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Overly competitive people will ruin anyone's day. They need to validate their life somehow, and some choose to do so with little plastic men pretending to fight.

Yeah? I'm a competitive as it gets. I've never found much challenge locally, so spend thousands of dollars to travel around the country to rub peoples' faces in the dirt (or to get my own rubbed in the dirt).

I'm guessing that you're not particularly skilled at 40k, and have had your army of little plastic men beaten into the ground one too many times and are now angry at all of us?

Hyper-competitive people play FOR THE LOVE OF THE CHALLENGE. Let me be the one to burst your bubble. I'm 30 years old, a formerly decorated army officer, have an Ivy League education from the most academically challenging school in the country (so says the Princeton Review anyway) that I paid for with sweat and blood (orphans don't have parents to give them scholarships). These days, I'm happily married, have no kids, have expensive toys, make enough money to do ANYTHING I want...I get to travel all over the country playing 40k because I want to. Exactly what do you think I need to validate? I play competitive 40k for the love of playing competitive 40k.

I don't keep trophies, I give away my prizes for winning tournaments as often as not, and if I'm playing a scrub, I get out an uncompetitive list.

Three questions I ask before every non-tournament game:
1. Do you know who I am?
2. Rate your tactical skill on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best 40k player in the world.
3. Is there an army you'd prefer to play against?

If they don't think they are Horus Reborn, or at least as gifted as Abbadon, I don't pull out the curb-stomping tools. You haven't been given the same courtsey by your local competitive players, but your bitter cynicism about why competitive people play 40k is misplaced, misguided, and offensive. The WORST part of 40k is when you're curb-stomping some hapless guy, you feel bad about it...and he doesn't care to hear about how to improve his own game. Then he gets sulky, angry, and is more likely than not to start some drama when you aren't there about how cheesy and WAAC you are. Despite the fact that you brought CLOSE COMBAT NECRONS to fight against his Razorspam netlist.

People play 40k for different reasons, but all of them end up being "fun." I can't wait to go home tonight; my wraiths are finally finished painting (flower wraiths for the Garden of Silence); they have brown roots, green bodies, yellow faces, black eyes, bloody claws, and the finishing touches tonight will be poking their heads through small fabric flowers to make them look like daisies.

I have this army to deal with people who have your attitude about people like me. So I can stomp on their bitterness and expose them as a self-delusional fraud. First I beat the crap out of them with my Necrons. Then we switch sides and I beat the crap out of the Necrons with their army.

Overly competitive people don't ruin anyone's day. Spiteful people ruin EVERYONE'S day, as does turning impotence into anger at someone else for exposing it, and all that jazz.

TFG is not the competitive player in your shop.
TFG is the guy who cheats because he's not good enough to compete.
TFG is the guy who causes animosity because he's not good enough to compete with the competitive player.

That kind of overreaction reveals that there is at least some impetus for you to validate thineself...

To be fair, Henners91, he could just be burned from what he feels is a constant assault on people who share his play style from those who are prone to sulking at a loss. I'm not implying any of the posters here are sulkers, for the record.

@Dashofpepper - My original statement was worded incorrectly and taken the wrong way. I tried to Clarify with this:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:
i did not say people who play to win are TFG, i said overly competitive people definitely are.

Being overly competitive is more of a personality flaw, the kind of guy who has to 'one up' any story you tell, or he feels he has to be better than everyone at the most mundane of things. Like he'll say he can vaccum the carpet faster and better than you, or he can tap a fork on a table faster than you...
That kind of crap.

From everything you've said, you sound like you are a highly competitive player. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that (as far as i'm concerned).
As I stated previously it is OVERLY competitive people that annoy the crap out of me. This being a personality flaw, not just a desire for challenge.
These are the people who are not fun to play with because every dice role that doesn't go their way drives them to slap the table in rage, or any good rolls or moves on your part gets you a glare or a tirade of curses.

I hope you see my original intention, as i actually have nothing wrong with the way you say you play. Hell, hit me up next time your in Atlanta and we can have a go, my Salamander's are always itching to scrap with there old nemesis the DE.

And as to those who think I posted this because I lose and cry all the time i direct you to yet another earlier post of mine:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:
Exactly,
Healthy competition is expected and encouraged. It is the overly competitive that can kiss off. I'm playing this game to have fun, I want to win, but it is certainly not the most important moment in my life. If I lose...I lose, so long as it was a fun game than I don't care.

But this being the internet, you can keep on believing what you want.

Guys, this is just a game of toy soldiers.

what Kilkrazy said!!

To get so offensive/OTT over what is in essence a game of toy soldiers is laughable.

redeyed wrote:That kind of attitude is probably why people argue with you/object to your opinions.

I've said this before, and will again: I am a blunt person, and prefer to cut to the chase. I have a low tolerancy for stupidity, but Dakka's rules have forced me to heavily moderate what I say. I don't *care* when people don't like my attitude. I've grown inured to the massive amount of trolling here when I write a tactica, or a batrep, or talk about a tournament or something. If someone can't value thoughtful feedback on an issue because they are either not smart enough or too petty to not feel offended by a blunt presentation, they don't have an opinion worth listening to in the first place. That's not arrogance, that's impatience with self-imposed mediocrity.

The world is full of pettiness, spitefulness, and mediocrity. Everywhere. I have no interest in appeasing the masses, my only interest is in helping those trying to distance themselves from the pile of worthless gak that costitute the masses.

I *HAVE A PROBLEM* when the sludge-pile belches forth a bilous pustulence labeling those people trying to rise above the midden-heap as "bad." NO ONE has a right to label achievers as bad, or claim they are trying to justify their existence. That attitude is the foundation of humanity's stagnation. That is anti-progress.

Hyper-competitive gamers are not the problem. People who think that achievers need to be put in their place because they're no better than anyone else are. Why would I give two feths and a rat tail that a people who I think are worthless don't like what I say?

40k doesn't create "go-getters" or "achievers." Its just another outlet in which people display their natural tendencies.
--------------------------------------------------
On a brighter note: For all you hyper-competitive people out there..don't let the sludge keep you down. Study that rulebook. Tweak your army. Practice GT scenarios. Find the biggest, baddest player in your area and play them until you learn to beat them. And if you are the baddest player, expand your playing network beyond your local scene. Ignore the schmucks who can't beat you and start blaming your own ambition for their inadequacies.

People in this thread: None of that is directed at any of you in particular, but rather at a distasteful mindset. If you're feeling targeted via description of your own thoughts, pause. Consider for a moment what you can do to make the world a little bit of a better place. Do it. Don't rabble on, find something meaningful and lasting that will improve something. Don't accept your station in life, strive to improve yourself.

I understand where you're coming from DoP. Sometimes I feel like mediocrity is culturally celebrated, and not just in wargaming. Being ambitious enough to want to be the best is just considered bad.

I dislike the every center having a tfg and if you can't point them out its probably you >_<

where i play there are only 2 war games tables, its mostly magic / other car/board games and a computer lan center/console gaming place (quite a cool place to hang out ) in the mall.

there are only a few of us warhammer players and everyone seems very cool and relaxed. we play oddball lists for fun or serious lists to practice tactics (well they do, I mostly play fluff cause its more fun) might be just that there are only max 10 of us but nobody I’ve met there is waac or tfg at all

I mostly play Warmahordes so my attitude might be different, but here are my thoughts.

I find there's a simple difference between playing to win and winning at all costs. The first implies that the person is attempting to win through expertise at the game: they have the talent and/or put in the effort to become a better player, and enjoy the feeling of reaping the rewards of such. The second is more interested in the feeling of dominance over another player through some arbitrary "victory," no matter how it's achieved.

Sometimes, I find that those who can't win by the first means try to redefine the "game" to win by the second. Hence the guy in my local game store who claims he doesn't go to tournaments because he keeps losing on technicalities and thinks it's ambullgak that such a thing could happen to him over and over, without considering what it is that causes that to happen to him over and over. As opposed to the guy who lost on some of the same technicalities and immediately sat down to read the tournament rules packet to figure out where he got caught and how he can avoid it in the future. In the first case, the player decided to redefine the game by his own criteria. In the second case, the player decided to study the game to adapt to the new meta.

And so on and so forth.

It's a real pain in the neck when some donkeycave decides to redefine the game by deciding that he should get an illegal army build and you can't, but it's just as bad to redefine the game against a solid, honest player by deciding that playing to the best of your abilities using the best you've got is against your personal arbitrary rules set.

Just something to think about.

Man, I wish there was a more selective ' ignore' function on here. I love dash's tactica threads, but his mere presence in non-tactics threads tends to drive them ot. Both because of his self-aggrandizing statements and other people's inability to ignore them. I find it highly unlikely dash did not know that his essay on his achievements would turn this thread into a referendum on himself; however, I don't see why anyone would bother challenging him on it, further derailing the thread. Dash has been around long enough for folks to know his persona, and know he will not suddenly decide "hey, I do come across as a bit full of myself, and I can see why other people might dislike it, without it being because they are (insert condescending description)". Dash gave his opinion; people could have ignored it. However, he certainly was aware that other people would have a hard time doing so.

Tl;dr version; dash, and those who responded to him are guilty of thread-pooping.

(typing on phone, sorry about no paragraph breaks)

bthom:

self-aggrandizing statements.

Here's a short education on how debate works.

Person #1 presents viewpoint.
Person #2 refutes viewpoint, preferably with evidence.
Person #1 attempts to refute refutation.
Person #2 shores up any holes in refutation and further refutes viewpoint.

In this case, I happened to use myself as the evidence because it was relevant to the viewpoint presented. And we got this:

Person #1 presents viewpoint
Person #2 refutes viewpoint, preferably with evidence.
Bunch of people attacked person #2 for daring to present evidence refuting Person #1
A few other people agreed with Person #2.
Person #2 now defends himself against the rabbling mob attacking him instead of his arguments.

Intelligent contribution would be refuting the refutation, or agreeing in the refutation of the viewpoint.

You can't fix stupid.

So!

I've see we've morphed from a generic TFG thread

to a generic competitive players are means :( thread

to a generic mud slinging / mud wrestling match with Dash.

Awesome. Now normally mud wrestling is really cool, but in this case there aren't any hot women, and its just sweaty men!

So uh yea.

Anyway to get back on topic I think themocaw raises a valid point. Its like my Aunt says (in a sense), "being taken seriously isn't something that comes with age- its a lifestyle choice"

I think all of us, on some level draw enjoyment from playing Warhammer.

I think people can agree that these stereotypes of players do exist, and I think the line between them is often blurred and confused.
Some players (TFG) only enjoy winning, and are thoroughly pissed off if they are ever outclassed. Taking things a step further by cheating if they feel like their dominance could possibly be threatened. These are your playground bullies

Some players (How I view Dash of Pepper, etc) are like Orks. They want a good fight. They want an opponent who they can go all out against and still be met blow for blow. Sure they prefer winning, everybody prefers winning then not. But these players would rather play a challenging and epic game and ultimately lose in the struggle than curbstomp a new player.

And there are people who just casually play- a semi competitive list with solid synergy and units they enjoy using. Certainly not opposed to drinking a few beers over a game. These players still want to win, but they still try to use units and lists they like, and have built back story for, even if they aren't the most competitive lists.

People need to chill out in this thread. Dash tends to "come off strong" to put it lightly, but he often knows what hes talking about. And there are usually nuggets of insight buried under his abrasive language. I think certain players in category 3, confuse players in category 2 with players in category 1, then get really frustrated, and blinded by rage, and then can't read past the abrasive language in Dash's posts.

Or that how I at least see this sorry excuse for a "debate".

Hes a Dark Eldar general after all-
"An Eldar's arrogance is matched only by their fire power"
or something like that!

lets just say I would advise against a pissing match against DoP. It seldom ends well.

akaean wrote:lets just say I would advise against a pissing match against DoP.

Captain Morgan is on his side in those. . .

akaean wrote:So!...snipped for space...It seldom ends well.

This!

Reasonable, readable, agreeable

Kilkrazy wrote:Guys, this is just a game of toy soldiers.

TOY SOLDIERS R SERIOUS BUSINESS!!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey Dash, I'd like a game against you on vassal sometime. After all this, if I'm not wiped from the board by top of turn 3, I will be very disappointed in you.

Dash you remind me of a buddy of mine, your not a lawyer are you?

But back on topic. So what we have learned here is this: A TFG will curbstomp an rookie just to win. A TFG plays all the angles to win, including cheats: I.E. excessive point, jank made up rules ect. A competitive player plays to win, but do it fairly. A cool competitive player will play to win, the after a win give the guy he beat tips and help him improve his game.

I'm new to warhammer but anyone i play i try to beat, no exceptions, its a game, their has to be a winner and a loser. But i try to ensure both players have fun. And when i run into an army that gives me trouble i re play it until i can beat it. Unfortunately with eldar i am 0-3-2. Does this make me a TFG, i'd like to think not. AS for the fluffyness of a player, i'm extremely fluffy, i have read all the Guants Ghosts, Ciaphis Cain, Ultramarines, 15 Hours, Eisenhorn, Reavanor, and Dawn of war. I named my Company commander, the commissar, the PCS and my chimeras. Because i got bored one day and decided to do so. Wrote an entire backstory about my regiment [12th Pheltorian Mechanized Regiment] in my world civ class. The thing is i dont show to someone unless they ask, or bring up they do the same. For the fluff players can be TFG too.

TL;DR You can be a competitive player, and a fluffy player at the same time. And a fluffy player can be a TFG.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Here's a short education on how debate works.
...
Bunch of people attacked person #2 for daring to present evidence refuting Person #1
A few other people agreed with Person #2.
Person #2 now defends himself against the rabbling mob attacking him instead of his arguments.

You don't have to defend yourself against ad hominem attacks; you've already won the debate once they come up.

Less fuss to acknowledge your opponents' concession and move on.

To the point of the topic, are other players ruining the game? No. Other players that don't agree with you (the generic, personal 'you' that is reading this) make the game non-enjoyable for the individual. Games Workshop controls "the Game".. and will do what they want, regardless of Dakka or whatever other forum. Their rules and changes will come based on their mythical reasons for whatever.. But when it comes down to the time to roll the dice, it's you and the person across the table. Just roll dice with someone you can enjoy rolling dice with.

Highly competitive players use every rule, munchkin tactic, and twist to their benefit to win the game (within the rules.) WAAC types (to my mind) are the Highly competitive types mixed in with a lot of rules lawyer and "creative interpretation" personalities. "It's just a game" types really don't care if you're 1/8th of an inch off or if there might be 48% obscuration of a vehicle instead of the 50%... it's all about the socialization. And there are all kinds of people in between. The labels don't matter.. that there are different personalities is the important part. Labels simply make it easier to put people in a de-humanized box and react to them as a "thing" and not a person, which is something I think is a bad thing. Remember, the bad guy rarely thinks of himself as a villain.

I play 40K with friends, and folks that wander down to the store. There are a couple of people I do not enjoy playing against because of the way they play.. it does not agree with me and we do not enjoy the encounter. So. I don't play them. Nothing personal and it's not that they're bad people. We are incompatible. I don't like playing games with them. I would imagine that they don't enjoy playing against me either. I also figure there are others that don't like playing against me. It doesn't make ME a bad person. Just incompatible.

To view "your own" style as "better," "superior," or some other superlative to other players places a judgement upon the individual.. and so those others take umbrage. There are players of all types that tend to come across that way. To my mind, it is that very self-supporting arrogance of superiority that garners the ridicule and resentment from people who play differently. It doesn't matter if your style is this, that or the other.. arrgant disdain for others simply will result in a negative response from those folks.

Take a step back.. breathe.. and simply don't waste the time trying to convince another that this is right or wrong. If it's a rules question.. debate it, and either come to an agreeable consensus or step away and agree to disagree. It simply doesn't have to be personal. Everyone knows the type that is being obtuse, and blatantly argumentative simply for the case of doing so. It doesn't matter what their opinion is. If you disagree.. step away.. thank them for their opinion.. and go play with someone else.

It. Just. Isn't. Worth. The. Mental. Calories. Or. Aggravation. Really.

Dakka has some good resources in among the chaff. The chaff.. well.. is just that. Chaff. What does one do with chaff? Cast it aside. Don't let it affect your world, or life, or game.

Just my opinion, of course.

sounds like a great summary there Hearne!

hear hear!

I *HAVE A PROBLEM* when the sludge-pile belches forth a bilous pustulence labeling those people trying to rise above the midden-heap as "bad." NO ONE has a right to label achievers as bad, or claim they are trying to justify their existence. That attitude is the foundation of humanity's stagnation. That is anti-progress.

Emperor's beard! Nurgle is in the Internets!!!

akaean wrote:<Three types of gamers.>

I would add a fourth type: that's the type that actively tries to play badly and uses that to feel superior to those who play well for some arbitrary reason. They do exist: I know for one that if I'm not careful, I can become one of them.

Also, I think it's unfair to think of WAAC types as "highly competitive." WAACs aren't interested in competition: they're interested in winning. They're the type who want to stand on the winner's platform and get the gold medal without going through the hassle of actually running the race.

Ah Hearne, if I get you right about not pigeon holing people you mean cos it can lead to:

They're socially awkward but bug me constantly with their old war stories so they're TFG

That one is a rules lawyer who's right 95% of the time and you have to show and argue them in proof for the remaining 5% so they're TFG

This one's play style drives me nuts so they're TFG.

Muggins over here is loud and obnoxious so they're TFG.

When really, they're just different aspects people can have which you may not like but are hardly the end of the world. I do have a few mates I hate gaming with - all types of gaming, but outside of games, I get along with them fine.

It should take something truly outstanding, if you're going to label people at all, before you slap them with the moniker (though I get the idea you aren't one for labelling people full stop). Like the guy I know that knows all the rules, if very obnoxious, WAACs type, cheats regularly (and thinks noone notices), cracks the proverbials if he loses, and lords over smashing ten year olds.

Is that what you meant Hearne or am I off the bat?

CadianCommander wrote:Ah Hearne, if I get you right about not pigeon holing people you mean cos it can lead to:

......

It should take something truly outstanding, if you're going to label people at all, before you slap them with the moniker (though I get the idea you aren't one for labelling people full stop). Like the guy I know that knows all the rules, if very obnoxious, WAACs type, cheats regularly (and thinks noone notices), cracks the proverbials if he loses, and lords over smashing ten year olds.

Is that what you meant Hearne or am I off the bat?

In essence, CadianCommander.. that's it. If you let yourself fall into the trap of putting labels on folks and pigeonholing them, it really creates an expectation within yourself. You expect the next comment out of "that so-and-so" to be aggressive or rude, and so even if that's not their itent, that's what you get.

To boil it all down, there simply will be folks you don't agree with and don't get along with. Like I said, discussing and debating is fine and healthy. Maybe a different perspective is just what you need. But when it becomes personal.. the constructive part of the conversation is over. There's nothing you can do about *their* attitude or behavior.. all you can do is control your own. When ya run into folks that throw a wet blanket on your fun.. just walk away and hang out with those that don't.

akaean wrote:So!

...

People need to chill out in this thread. Dash tends to "come off strong" to put it lightly, but he often knows what hes talking about. And there are usually nuggets of insight buried under his abrasive language. I think certain players in category 3, confuse players in category 2 with players in category 1, then get really frustrated, and blinded by rage, and then can't read past the abrasive language in Dash's posts.
.

An insightful post.

Personally, that kind of 'abrasive language' (I would call it something else) is something I don't enjoy reading. Yes, it's something you may well be thinking (and you are certainly not alone in that regard), but for the most part good manners, and the knowledge that this is a forum that is supposed to be talking about playing with toy soldiers (a pleasurable pastime), dictate that you shouldn't put all of your heartfelt feelings out for everyone to read about. To be frank, it just comes across as bullish and offensive despite the truth at the core of the comments, rammed home with all the subtlety of a E-Honda's flying head butt. And it's essentially stopped all other discussion because people are cowed out of writing any kind of reply.

I would go further, but it would make my post hypocritical, so in the meantime I will just be content with the 'ignore' button.