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Swordwind wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:If they want to kill of the third world buyers, they will win this.

Wow, another Malaysian. Apa khabar mate? Yeah, I really agree with you. I have an FLGS nearby, with decent prices, but even then I won't be buying any GW from them any time soon. Hope you have luck getting minis from elsewhere if you don't have an FLGS.

WAH!!! Apa khabar? Everything good here. I stay in Sarawak at Miri. Studying at Curtin. How are you?

Which FLGS you normally go to? Here I have to drive into Brunei, pas t KB, Seria, than Bandar Seri Begawan, than into Muara. After that, go into limbang than back into brunei again through temburong. THAN back into Malaysia straight into sabah and drive all the way to KK to the only FLGS selling Warhammer on this island. Imagine, for the whole of Sabah and Sarawak... only one store I know... Just Wargames. Have to get passport chop twice

Those 14 year old boys aren't getting any younger, but sure as hell, the 10,11,12, and 13 year olds are there, ready to take their place as the buying public.

Not true. When the starter boxes were at $60.00 US dollars (which was the perfect price for newbies to get into the game) it sold additional material on the store.

At $90.00 US dollars, more often than not people bawk on a product that you have to put together and paint.

I do sympathies with my fellow gamers overseas as the price fluxuations are just killing the hobby.

As it has been said that people vote with their wallet. I do. I have disposable income but, I buy less and less product because of the price increases year after year after year.

From $2400 per year to $480 per year ($40 per month) and it is going to be a lot less in the near futrure.

I kinda see what's going on here, and I really don't think it's as malicious as everyone puts it. While his logic that online retailers don't support the hobby isn't exactly true, if what pixxpixx and lord blackfang are saying is correct (which I'm sure it is, I hope =p) then they're just trying to sustain the company.

Essentially, it's a love 'em or leave 'em scenario. While I won't say that GW is innocent in all of this, I really hope they try to re-capture the appeal that brought in all the people who are quitting.

For those who don't live in Australia, and even some who do, what needs to be realised is that EVERYTHING in Aus is more expensive. Including things like the cost of renting retail space. So our prices being a bit higher is not to be unexpected.

Most of our prices, on everything were set back when our dollar was at "normal" levels. Back then, the price difference was not so bad. These days, our dollar has increased to higher than the US's. This is a problem in more than just the miniatures industry. Anything that could be bought overseas will be cheaper, simply becuase the prices were set when our dollar was worth less.

As Mr Wells said, If the prices were simply cut in half, alot of damage would be done. The problem is that by blocking European sellers, the price has basically been doubled over night. The problem with both of these things is that they are extremes.

Instead of cutting everything by 50% in one go, maybe cut the price by 20%, over 2 or 3 years. This has the effect of not destroying retail stock value, and preventing damage to retailers.

The problem with a long term plan like this, is that it is difficult to predict what will happen with the value of our dollar. If GW did decrease the price and the value of the Aus dollar were to drop, they could be left with unprofitable stock, and a sudden increase in price, could damage their market.

Pricing goods in an international stage is not easy.

In regards to the letter, it is a bit insulting, but it is an explanation. For those calling GW out on the fact that this is just to increase profits, remember these 2 things:

GW is a company, and the goal of all companies is to make money.

A company cannot simply come out and say that they are increasing prices just to make more money. They have to rationalise it.

Adam LongWalker wrote:
At $90.00 US dollars, more often than not people bawk on a product that you have to put together and paint.

Be that as it may, the AOBR starter set is probably one of their best renditions of an introductory package for new players to get.

It comes with alot for that price.

Granted, it is going up in price from 90 USD, but the point is is that it is still a decent value.

While I am not affected by this turn of events, I have to say I'm even more angry about this than the recent price changes and silly repackaging and price gouging of metal models. This is an example of a company attempting to interfere with the free trade of goods among consumers and traders internationally. On one hand it's nice to actually get a response out of GW, but on the other hand, the response seems arrogant and insincere to say the least.

I don't buy the argument that discount retailers do not support the hobby. I say that they do support the hobby by offering a cheaper supply of miniatures to those who wish to expand their hobby. The FLGS and GW Hobby centers will still get money from the new customer and the occasional money from the veteran players. The hobby stores benefit from the veteran players being there on a regular basis to play games and promote the hobby by having games nights at the store. By having a gaming community at the hobby center, new players are more likely to walk in and make a purchase. How many new players make their initial purchase into the hobby from an internet discount retailer? I had no idea what the Warstore or Miniature Market was before being a part of the hobby for some time. While I make most of my larger purchases online, I make small, casual, or impulse purchases at the FLGS, as well as buying comics or the occasional new game there.

While GW is fully legally in the right to take actions such as this, morally it just doesn't sit well with me. Since when has GW become the defender of the common FLGS that they try to make themselves out to be here? I don't know the retail business from a shop owners perspective but I do know that my FLGS has had issues dealing with GW over the years, to the point that they considered dropping the line altogether at one point.

I hate to say this but this attempt to stifle free commerce is really making me consider leaving the hobby that I love. I've just spent a lot of money the last few months on building up a DE army, and have a lot more stuff on pre-order and feel like I don't want to play the game right now. I might pick up a box of Malifaux miniatures this week. Not that I intend to jump into the game but just to feel like I'm putting some of my miniature money into another company out of spite.

yakface wrote:

Has the internet and the ease of small scale shipping made this a problem for industries like miniature gaming that don't exist for things that can't be easily shipped (like cars)? Is this part of the reason why electronic devices have region lock-outs built in, to allow companies to lock-in prices in certain regions without worrying about being undercut by themselves via private shipping from another country?


I'm just really curious to know how other companies who sell globally have handled this type of problem if anyone with any actual knowledge knows?

None of this would be an issue in Australia if there weren't GW stores there. Leave it to the FLGS IMHO. Either way if people are buying GW is getting their pound of flesh. It's obvious from their statement that the stores are not that profitable if the rent and employee wages are their excuse for such a totalitarian distribution policy.

Congrats GW you have just killed your loyal fanbase more than ever. :Facepalm:

It's good to see some communication. That's a firm step in the right direction.

I am personally quite shocked that this announcement has had such an impact. (IE a response from GW) I wonder if in a few months it will all go back to the way it use to be. Maybe finally this is the tail spin?

All of my friends including me have stopped buying copious amounts of GW a long time ago. A few still buy dribs and drabs.

GW is a company, and the goal of all companies is to make money.

Maybe they should try and sell some stuff them? Australian RRP has passed the threshold of just being expensive a long time ago.. Currently its just plain crazy.

I do like how some believe that voting with the wallet will change GW, GW will never change, they will survive or they will just go under and have their IP sold.


EDIT for clarity

War One Wrote:

Granted, it is going up in price from 90 USD, but the point is is that it is still a decent value.

But compared to what? 90 US dollars to those already into 40K know that this is a good deal. But to new people that GW is trying to get into the hobby, that is too much money for unfinished plastic figures that you have to put together.

The new mentality of the younger audience is partly shaped by their peers and their peers will be playing something else than this.

Augustus5 Wrote:

While GW is fully legally in the right to take actions such as this, morally it just doesn't sit well with me. Since when has GW become the defender of the common FLGS that they try to make themselves out to be here? I don't know the retail business from a shop owners perspective but I do know that my FLGS has had issues dealing with GW over the years, to the point that they considered dropping the line altogether at one point.

I fully agree with this statement since I knew first hand about GW's heavy handiness to their indies in my region to the point of driving out all competition of selling product so only their game stores are selling product.

SickSix wrote:In Oz, a tactical squad costs 66 USD. That's a 66% mark up over US retail cost. How the feth do they justify that?

That's all I want to know.

One would assume that this is because the price is set in each economic area based upon average earnings in that area. Thus that Tactical box will be x% of Joe averages hourly pay in any country, certainly that has always been my assumption (sorry I don't believe that GW just arbitrarily sets prices, they are a successful company so i'll give them some credit).

Having seen the Australian and Canadian complaints over many years I have always assumed that most would understand this but there will always be people that complain about any given situation. Anyway this open letter (which make a fair amount of sense to me) has finally motivated me to do a little check on this. So here it is (rough and ready I grant you - I have tried to pro rata to a 2010/2011 price where old info was only found);

Ave. hour earnings;
UK - £11.52/hr (2005 figure increased 4.4% per annum) - NOoS
Canada - $24.81/hrCan (think this was the Can. Bureau of Statistics?)
US - $21.35/hrUS (US bureau of Statistics)
Aus - $32.20/hr (fulltime no- managerial - http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6306.0/)

Now using this information see attached (sorry no idea of how to show this directly in dakka) and working on the basis that there will be other numerable factors to take into account which will even out the figures if Joe Average Canuck, Yank, Aussie or Brit walked into their local GW the would all be paying about he same price.

What is happening here is GW are closing down a loophole that may have been very good for internet shoppers but was ultimately damaging sellers in Aus and the local hobby hobby there.

Sorry I'm not trying to piss on anyone's chips here, I would be unhappy at losing such an avenue as well, but this makes Mr Well's letter more understandable to me. It may not seem it but this will probably be better for the community in the long run (stronger FLGS presumably).

The price increase is a different story, and exchange rate profits are a quirk of international trade; as presumably would be losses if the reverse was true.

Note: the attached figure have been based upon a very brief search for info, so if anyne has something more accurate then I can revise this to suit.

Well, the fact that GW felt and obligation to responds means one thing to me: they know that it was a wrong move and they feel they have crossed a line. No matter how they sugar-coat it, it's really lies. What they want is to profit from currency variation by forcing us to buy locally in local currency. If they really cared that much about "not eroding the customer base", they would at the very least have adjusted the local prices accordingly. In the last two years the Pound has lost about 10% in regards to the Canadian $. Yet, I still pay a lot more. Can they justify that ordering a box of GKs from GW Canada is 35% more expensive (33.5CDN$-VAT included from GW UK vs 45CDN$-local taxes included from GW Canada!!!)? Heck, can they justify that, even though our dollars are at parity for more than 3 years, there is ALSO 20% difference (before any taxes) between GW US and GW Canada!? What, because they "prevent eroding the customer base" by maintaining a tiny GW Store in one of the most expensive mall downtown Montreal(I know, I used to own a store there)?

Oh, and please let's not compare "Minimum Wage". Let's compare "net income". Because yes, minimum wage is about 10$ here, compared to 7.25$ in the US. But our taxes are a lot higher, so I actually keep less in my pocket...

Please, let's not be fooled by the "We are so kind because we take time to answer" charade. It's probably written by the same lawyers who justified the BP spill by letting us know that BP was a friendly company trying to share the oil with Mother Nature.

It's really sad...

Phil

I intentionally didn't use minimum wage as it is not really relevant to a luxury good (it would have been a damn sight easier to get figures though ).

Having said that one would expect the minimum wages for the respective areas to produce similar ratios though.

I am blown away by that average wage.. It says to me that the number of unskilled people in my country must be pretty low... $32 feth.. People gotta stop lying on those stat forms. Alternatively stupid miners jacking up the average..

Also you know you haven't had to use excel in some time when you have to download compatibility stuff just to open something.. haha.

EDIT oh yeah boreas I forgot about taxes..

Why is everything twice as expensive in australia? I can't really think of a non commodity that isn't at least 50% more (accounting for exchange) there relative to the US.

"European internet traders"

Way to go painting everyone with the same brush ya fethstick. Maelstrom has a massive store with over 100 tables, all designed to foster and build 'the hobby'. You, Wells, can just go feth yourself sir.

Your excuses are nothing but lazy bs.




[EDIT]: Yay! Beat the filter. Editing now...

notprop wrote:
Ave. hour earnings;
UK - £11.52/hr (2005 figure increased 4.4% per annum) - NOoS
Canada - $24.81/hrCan (think this was the Can. Bureau of Statistics?)
US - $21.35/hrUS (US bureau of Statistics)
Aus - $32.20/hr (fulltime no- managerial - http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6306.0/)

While I appreciate (A LOT) the effort to introduce some actual, reality-based, numbers into this discussion, please note that the mean hourly wage (which is what you quoted for the US, at least) doesn't necessarily tell you a whole lot. The mean hourly wage includes CEOs and other billionaires, so the mean wage doesn't tell you what kind of income the vast majority of people shopping for GW product actually make. I'm sure that Mark Zuckerberg finds GW product reasonably priced. That doesn't help the rest of us.

The median hour earning for the US is $16.27, over $5 less than the mean you cited. If everybody in the US shopped at GW, half of those customers would be making less than $16.27 an hour, and the other half more.

spyfunk wrote:Games Workshop is a CORPORATION.

Corporations are in business to make MONEY.

I'm not agreeing with anything that GW is doing whatsoever. But with inflation comes price increases. With changing currencies comes policy changes.

Corporations are NOT going to ever reduce their prices across the board in this day and age. Especially when they have a bottom line, and more specifically when they have people called STOCK HOLDERS who determine how the company operates with their decisions as purchasers of the company stock.

If you really want to make your money speak, purchase stock in the company, go to the meetings and speak your mind.

Holding back your wallets isn't going to make a bit of difference.

Those 14 year old boys aren't getting any younger, but sure as hell, the 10,11,12, and 13 year olds are there, ready to take their place as the buying public.

If no one buys the overpriced goods then it doesn't matter what cost savings you make, you are heading for zero profits.
Shareholders don't like zero profits as it makes their cream curdle.
Selling starter sets to kiddies is not viable long term as they realise the hobby costs too much to continue. Unless GW just aim to pump out starter sets from here til the final trump.
Which I believe is today.

The stock market hasn't a clue what is going on and if they did the share price might take a tumble.
So actually holding back on the wallet is going to have an effect.

"Greed is Good!"


We only did this because of our fans......

Please don't attach non wargaming pictures to Dakka. Thanks. reds8n

Double standard much?

Notprop

I do understand where you are coming from with your monetary statistic from however:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/17/news/economy/recession_lost_generation/index.htm?section=money_latest

No Jobs means no money. Underemployment = less disposible income.

Now of late there has been a upswing of hiring which has been "promoted" greatly by the talking heads of our government.

But grandfather, who was a very wise and wealthy man from the depression era once stated to me.

"Statics are for losers. They can be manipulated to suit a persons needs. What counts is what you show the government, what you show your business associates and what books you keep for yourself".

He also said to me "Use your wealth wisely for it takes one fleeting moment to become dead broke and homeless".

I have learned most of my lessons from my grandfather while keeping tabs on what are the goings on in my sphere of influence.


Mark Wells did his part and posted a politically correct comment on the goings on with Games Workshop, and I will state this again. In my Opinion Wells is only the talking head for Kirby. Kirby continues to run the show for Games Workshop.

And his bottom line is his stock holdings when he retires from the board.

Games Workshop will continue to tightening up all sources of monetary revenue as their customer base in this hobby declines.

There is always discount stores and ebay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing that so urks me is FW not doing Sons of Medusa
sooner in december they said yes. now its dont know.

Thalor wrote:GW's argument for Australians is that the overhead for the stores requires the price? Is it that pure 'GW' stores just aren't that profitable? Would it be cheaper to just close down and allow independant hobby shops fill the void?

That right there is something I've never understood about GW. Having been to Battle Bunkers and Hobby Centers, they're nice, but they're not that great. I've been to much bigger independent retailers that have nicer locations, nicer tables and nicer staff.

Orlanth wrote:GW retail is haemorraging, they don't understand how to take advantage of internet sale for themselves and there are too many overpaid unsackable dinosaurs eating up the gross.

It's hemorrhaging because they're investing too much into their retail stores. How much is rent in high populations areas like California? Other coastal states? Before the housing bubble pop in California rent for a two bedroom apartment was averaging $2000+ in the San Francisco Bay. I can rent a four bedroom house in the Midwest for $400-$600. Granted, the Midwest is no California, but the cost of living is much cheaper.

GW needs to abandon their brick and mortar stores. They're not needed. I don't see Wizards of the Coast having their own brick and mortars. Nor does Battlefront Miniatures (FOW).

spyfunk wrote:Games Workshop is a CORPORATION.

Corporations are in business to make MONEY.

They are a small corporation with a small niche market in the global economy. They're business practices are borderline Shylock (reference: Merchant of Venice). Sorry Aussies, it looks like you're having to pay the pound of flesh for massively skewed business practices.

Thought: If GW abandoned their failing brick and mortars, how much more would their profit be? How much could they reduce costs and pass the savings to their customers?

How much could they reduce costs and pass the savings to their customers?

Why would they do that and break the habit of a lifetime?

Would it be cheaper to not have the GW stores and set up warehouses where they deliver to FLGS, instead? Just curious...because it does seem like having the GW stores are a problem. I always read on DakkaDakka about GW stores being opened and then, just as many if not more, stores being closed...that really can not be cheap overall.

While it was surprising to get a response on one issue, the silence is deafening on the main point; why the ever increasing high prices? Its alright saying that internet retailers are depriving shops in the southern hemisphere potential sales but if no-one can afford to buy them on the high street what exactly is the point? Accusing northern internet retailers of damaging the hobby is laughable. The only damage being done is by YOU, GW.

yakface wrote:I'm just really curious to know how other companies who sell globally have handled this type of problem if anyone with any actual knowledge knows?

The company I work for deals w/ this on a daily basis and there can be wide discrepancies between prices in various market areas. It is something that we have taken note of any have been working on some tools to benchmark and manage our pricing structures around the world. I should point out that we are NOT retail...industrial equipment.

That being said, I view pricing as a function of what the market will bear versus the ability of our supply chain to meet our targeted margins. On top of that, we through in SGA (costs of doing business). There is no doubt that we can command higher premiums in Australia that the USA, however, we also have higher SGA and COGS which, to some degree, account for the higher prices. From my perspective any sales outlet that required one to double their selling price, where there were other lower cost options available would not be considered. This isn't always clear-cut as one needs to consider the effectiveness of the other vehicles to market and can be very subjective.

However, the fact that indie retailer in the UK can purchase and ship globally, and offer significant discounts at the same retail price they'd offer locally (ie they're not increasing their discounts for global sales), suggests to me that GW's pricing structure has little to do with actual "costs", but far more to do with what they feel the market can/will/should bare.

I think the other piece they've missed is the fact that countries without a direct GW presence or effective local representation (again subjective) now have much fewer options...a choice that will likely reduce sales.

These issues are very complex and typically have a lot of different drivers. Ultimately, future sales will dictate the effectiveness of this policy change.

AJC

notprop wrote:

SickSix wrote:In Oz, a tactical squad costs 66 USD. That's a 66% mark up over US retail cost. How the feth do they justify that?

That's all I want to know.

One would assume that this is because the price is set in each economic area based upon average earnings in that area. Thus that Tactical box will be x% of Joe averages hourly pay in any country, certainly that has always been my assumption (sorry I don't believe that GW just arbitrarily sets prices, they are a successful company so i'll give them some credit).

Having seen the Australian and Canadian complaints over many years I have always assumed that most would understand this but there will always be people that complain about any given situation. Anyway this open letter (which make a fair amount of sense to me) has finally motivated me to do a little check on this. So here it is (rough and ready I grant you - I have tried to pro rata to a 2010/2011 price where old info was only found);

Ave. hour earnings;
UK - £11.52/hr (2005 figure increased 4.4% per annum) - NOoS
Canada - $24.81/hrCan (think this was the Can. Bureau of Statistics?)
US - $21.35/hrUS (US bureau of Statistics)
Aus - $32.20/hr (fulltime no- managerial - http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6306.0/)

Now using this information see attached (sorry no idea of how to show this directly in dakka) and working on the basis that there will be other numerable factors to take into account which will even out the figures if Joe Average Canuck, Yank, Aussie or Brit walked into their local GW the would all be paying about he same price.

What is happening here is GW are closing down a loophole that may have been very good for internet shoppers but was ultimately damaging sellers in Aus and the local hobby hobby there.

Sorry I'm not trying to piss on anyone's chips here, I would be unhappy at losing such an avenue as well, but this makes Mr Well's letter more understandable to me. It may not seem it but this will probably be better for the community in the long run (stronger FLGS presumably).

The price increase is a different story, and exchange rate profits are a quirk of international trade; as presumably would be losses if the reverse was true.

Note: the attached figure have been based upon a very brief search for info, so if anyne has something more accurate then I can revise this to suit.

This analysis is right on target, and this is how these decisions are made. Whether their products should be as expensive as they are is up for debate, but they are trying to keep them roughly even in all the areas they serve. The internet tends to throw all this off, as one of the other posters pointed out in his line of business, unless manufacturers take a hard line on sales territories.

It would be interesting to see what an Australian independent game store makes of this, as presumably Australians we can empathize with a local small business owner more than the evil limey corporation intent on screwing them?

The letter is what is technically termed- B.S.


All it is is a feeble attempt at damage control. Expect more, film at 11. Explaination was texbook PR, wouldn't have expected anything less.

Now that he has only provoked and incited more response, I'd expect it to hit the Board of Directors by Monday. They are going to need to be made aware that thier going to be losing some customers and more importantly profit here in the next month or so.

Pff, seen the last BoW show? simple progression puts standard army boxes at 118 pounds by 2015.