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It also is mere flummery.

People have a right to voice their displeasure.
In the grand scheme of things nothing is worth complaining about. If you don't wish to hear people complain pop your ear drums with a sharp spikey thing and pour molten wax down your lug holes.

Don't venture anywhere near the internet and to make sure gouge out eyes with a trusty rusty spoon.

To try and justify GW's excessive pricing policies apologists have come up with some ridiculous excuses. But the OP's twisted logic seems to be among the more desperate and hopelessly indefensible seen thus far.

Personally, I've always been in the camp that the main problem with the GW side of this hobby is that there are too many people in it who take it too seriously.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to approach a hobby you enjoy sincerely, but when you're getting into heated arguments with other players because they sculpt boobies on space marines, declaring yourself to be a "fluff master" because you've read every shred of background available and then proceed to police other people's army backgrounds for being acceptable or not, or mock armies that look cool or are characterful and painted well because they are less than optimized, that's taking things a bit far IMHO. I'd much rather play with the penniless riff-raff than someone who has a stick up their donkeycave.

I'd like to introduce you all to the future vindicator for my space marine army:


It will be slightly longer than a GW tank but come pretty close in other respects. Guess how much it costs?
$50? Nay, says I. $40 Wrong again. Gentlesirs, this beautifully detailed model may be purchased for the insane price of $24.

http://www.internethobbies.com/ta1gestiiiau.html

It's funny but while looking through the web, I actually ran across Diecast metal models that are larger than GW models and cost less than GW plastic.

This is going to be my counts-as valkyrie; it costs about the same as GW's but is metal.

agnosto wrote:I'd like to introduce you all to the future vindicator for my space marine army:


It will be slightly longer than a GW tank but come pretty close in other respects. Guess how much it costs?
$50? Nay, says I. $40 Wrong again. Gentlesirs, this beautifully detailed model may be purchased for the insane price of $24.

http://www.internethobbies.com/ta1gestiiiau.html

Beautiful model! Wow, I may have to pick one up just for the hell of it!

Gah I want one too
The Stugs are a fave AFV, cool choice Agnosto

Thank goodness for high prices. If the prices weren't so high, lots of gamers would just buy the minis and not paint them. The hobby emphasis of wargaming would suffer emsensely. Imagine the consequences.You'd go into your game store and half the armies would be unpainted and that would be terrible!

Oh wait...

Some people take this way too seriously.... If some of you guys think the prices are too high, but like the game then just proxy. I'm sure if your playing with mates it's not a problem.

Just looking at some of these 'counts as' vehicles makes me wonder what's out there and why I should pay so much for GW tanks, which are too small in scale anyway.
I think there will be a huge amount of proxy mini's when Mantic finally release their Warpath mini's. As it is I'm going to buy Forgefathers and use them as 'counts as' Space Marines.
For gods sake people, there is a whole world of sci-Fi mini's out there for very reasonable prices. Play GW games by all means, but if you find the prices too high just use other mini's...

MrMerlin wrote:Imagine a box of Spees Meweens or anything else cost 4 or 5$

MrMerlin wrote:

And with "every noob" in the OP i didn' refer to "poor" people, but to people who do not take warhammer seriously. Like those kids who don't know the rules and take their models out of their backpacks in handfuls to drop them on the table like dice. And while the amount of those kids is nowadays proportional to the amount of spoilt rich-parent runts, you will find much more of them if the prices drop much (wich i also would welcome, but Id still be annoyed by the unserious players.)

What, people not taking a GAME SERIOUSLY, the world coming to a end. You know what games a for right.
Games only grow and stay around becouse new people buy them. The little kids dropping there model on the table will either change or drop the game. I really like the view of "poor kid" carrying less themn"rich kid "for the model. When the so called "poor kid" spend nearly all the more on the game while the "rich kid" get mommy/daddy to buy them new toys and the pay for a pro painting job. Who has more vested in the game, hint its not the "rich kid".

As for the good thing about GW high prices. The rest of my group is finally willing to try and invest in non GW games.

Without GW, THERE WOULD BE NO WARHAMMER FANTASY/WARHAMMER 40'000/LOTR STRATEGY GAME.

Still don't see how this means we owe them anything.
They made an awesome game. Great.
They used to be run by awesome people. Great.

Over the past decade or so, they've gotten worse and worse in terms of release schedule, marketing, pricing, customer relations (not customer services), and, indeed, with Finecast, quality control.

I liked what they were, but I hate what they are, and I will voice displeasure with them.

If GW shut it's doors tomorrow and Warhammer ceased to exist, I would be disappointed, but I'd move on.

I mean, they made an awesome universe and a decent game. Does this mean we should be eternally grateful, even when they're making moronic decisions? If anything, I'd say (for most of us), if we didn't like Warhammer, we wouldn't be so upset about it.


EDIT: Back on topic.

OP is wrong. Regardless of price, there are people who aren't going to paint their armies, treat their minis like crap, and not take the game seriously (the very notion of "taking a game seriously" is... kind of ridiculous). In fact, I'll second the notion that the spoiled rich kid who's parents can afford to buy him Warhammer is going to treat his minis like crap, as opposed to someone for whom buying an army is something they have to plan out and save for, as it's a much bigger investment for them. Lower prices=more people=bigger pool of opponents to draw from. Sure, lots of them will be gaks, but lots of the people playing now are gaks so....

MrMerlin wrote:

htj wrote:

RanTheCid wrote:What do you mean rubbish - it's GW's marketing plan. Seriously... MrMerlin is closer to the truth than you think.

...charging high prices to make people buy less?

No, so people take it mor seriously

I know it is somewhat unfair to people with little money (me included, i have to rely on gifts and christmas money ) but i take it very seriously and many people i know also do. If they had low prizes, many small kids woud buy "those cool mall GI joe guys", not leran the rules properly and not paint them properly. I know a few of those kids, they have rich parents so spending 50€ here and there does not mean anything to them. They dont know the rules, throw their models around the room, paint them with two coulors in what seems to be 2 minutes and so on. That sucks.

Sorry bro, but thats the way the 'GW Hobby' hsa been for a long time. Alot of kids do have rich parents, churn and burn, thats GWls 'Master plan'

They have worked out that the average 'little timmy' has a 18 month life cycle in 'The GWplc hobby,tm,©'. He will buy and play for 18 monthos on average, and will drop out after that. They think there is a never ending supply of timmys and that price is inelastic. Managers are taught to view customers as walking wallets and that is all. If they are not buying then we don't want them in the store. Buy or Leave.

-shrugs- I guess thats why 3 of the 5 GW stores around here closed.

I disagree about the high prices discouraging casual gamers being a good thing. It also discourages 'hardcore' gamers, or in the very least gets in the way of them collecting due to higher priority house bills needing to be paid.

Lower prices would encourage a more diverse customer base to take part in the hobby. I dont believe for a minute that this would be a negative thing. More gamers to play? More painters to compete against / work with / take inspiration from? GW sales increasing to enable them to release more kick ass miniatures / take on new staff to update codex's, fluff, BRB, etc.

The list of reasons 'for' lower prices far outweighs the list of 'for' higher prices. Ultimately, we all want an easily accessible hobby, be it accessible through friends encouraged to get involved, written material, desirable miniatures, or just financially viable / less restrictive.

I feel the need to point out that I'm not a GW hater, nor am I a GW 'fanboy', just have my own views which seem to be perfectly logical to me.

Thoughts?

The best thing about GW's prices is the circular logic that they use to justify it:

When you buy GW product, you KNOW that it's the best wargaming products you can buy. They feature high quality MULTI-PART plastics which let you build your army easily lets you build an army cheaper than with metal models. Metal models are more expensive because they are highly detailed and the cost of metal has increased a lot over the last few years. Of course, these have recently been phased out with FINECAST, which is much easier to work with and holds even more detail when used to cast the same models as the metal! Of course, this all comes at a price, so you'll have to pay a little more for these superior products. Of course, since the plastic line is so flexible, there's always the alternative of using some of GW's posable plastic models instead. Most of the range is now plastic and they give you loads of bits and infinite customization possibilities. As these are highest quality plastic models, they are the same price as Finecast.

Finecast "small" character model such as Dante: $25CDN
Plastic SM Commander model: $24CDN
Finecast Sternguard squad: $42CDN
Plastic SM Command squad: $42CDN

Ergo: They have the finest plastic kits in the industry, as they value the same as their special character / elite sculpts in "space age" Finecast.

Watching people defend GW's prices can provide hours of entertainment.

My real basic complaint with the GW prices is there's really no fixed pricing for anything. Everything is just willy-nilly priced.
10 Space Marines is $37, 5 Grey Knights is $33? What?
And then a unit of Reaver Jetbikes is $35? The feth?

My favorite is when they try to point to other companies and how their models are similarly priced or more expensive. In many cases this is untrue, and in the cases where it's true, you don't have to buy nearly as many models to play their game.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you're buying models just to build them and paint them, or if that is the primary aspect of the hobby you enjoy, then GW isn't the worst. But if you're looking at it from a gaming perspective, and trying to figure out how much you'll need to spend to collect a full army (1850 to 2500 points, as this seems to be the sweet spot most people regularly play at), then GW is the most expensive company out there. The barrier to entry for GW games is also higher than others.

Or in other words, yeah, a full unit of Bane Knights is going to cost $80. But I'm still only gonna end up spending $350 on a 50 point Army, which is the biggest Warmahordes games usually go, and $350 is on the sightly pricy side for Warmahordes. A 2000 point... I don't know, Dark Eldar Army? $500 to $600? Not sure what a decent list looks like but an Archon, 40 Warriors, 10 Incubi, 5 Raiders, a couple of Ravagers and some Scourges comes out to about that much.


EDIT: Mr. Self-Destruct, I'm pretty sure the points value of a unit and where it fits on the Force Org chart is factored into its pricing. I know PP does that, as well (A full unit of Bane Knights is 10 points and $80, but a full unit of Sword Knights (different faction) is 6 points at $65. Both units, at full size, are 10 models).

Now, yes, Warmachine is generally a smaller scale affair than 40K. So comparing it to Warpath, and using model count, 80 grunts, 20 heavy weapon grunts, and four vehicles is $180, for a total of 100 infantry and 4 vehicles. For 40K, 80 Orks, 4 Trukks, and 12 Bikes (4 Battleforces) would set you back $400.

MrMerlin wrote:If you think about it, there is one good thing bout Games Workshop selling their products for ridiculus amounts of money:
Imagine a box of Spees Meweens or anything else cost 4 or 5$; You'd think this would be pretty nice, right?
Now imagine the effect this would have on the hobby: Every noob would buy a billion armies, and the gaming community would be crowded with players who aren't taking the game seriously at all. After all, a box of models only costs 5 bucks. Nobody would paint their models to a high standard because theyd have so many.

So with the high prizes, you will find only the ones who take the hobby seriously will buid up an army.

Edited because of my lousy spelling

Lolno. There are still far too many in this hobby with more money than social skills, or modeling ability, or basic painting skills, or even a tenuous grasp of the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

keezus wrote:The best thing about GW's prices is the circular logic that they use to justify it:

When you buy GW product, you KNOW that it's the best wargaming products you can buy. They feature high quality MULTI-PART plastics which let you build your army easily lets you build an army cheaper than with metal models. Metal models are more expensive because they are highly detailed and the cost of metal has increased a lot over the last few years. Of course, these have recently been phased out with FINECAST, which is much easier to work with and holds even more detail when used to cast the same models as the metal! Of course, this all comes at a price, so you'll have to pay a little more for these superior products. Of course, since the plastic line is so flexible, there's always the alternative of using some of GW's posable plastic models instead. Most of the range is now plastic and they give you loads of bits and infinite customization possibilities. As these are highest quality plastic models, they are the same price as Finecast.

Finecast "small" character model such as Dante: $25CDN
Plastic SM Commander model: $24CDN
Finecast Sternguard squad: $42CDN
Plastic SM Command squad: $42CDN

Ergo: They have the finest plastic kits in the industry, as they value the same as their special character / elite sculpts in "space age" Finecast.

Watching people defend GW's prices can provide hours of entertainment.

Watching people whine on the internet about GW's prices while continuing to pay those same prices is even more entertaining.

Worglock wrote:

Watching people whine on the internet about GW's prices while continuing to pay those same prices is even more entertaining.

Pretty much this. While I'm not pointing out anyone in this thread specifically, if you're really hacked off about the prices, you should put your money where your mouth is and stop buying.



...Did I just agree with Worglock again? Also agreed with his other point in his post.

Hell has frozen over.

Squigsquasher wrote:I'm not saying we do owe them. But think about it. Without GW, THERE WOULD BE NO WARHAMMER FANTASY/WARHAMMER 40'000/LOTR STRATEGY GAME. I'm not saying that you shouldn't express your displeasure towards them. What I am saying is that there's no point bitching and whining about something that, on the grand scale of things, isn't that important.

Besides, do any of you know how expensive it is to make the molds for models? It can cost £1000's to make the mold for a plastic model kit. Add that to the cost of paying the people who sculpt the prototypes, the rising cost of oil, actually casting the model, and you are talking about a LOT of money.

Cool story bro.

Oh... wow.

i'm not sure if the OP is being serious, or he's just being funny.

Irony in many forms, and all that...

RatBot wrote:

Worglock wrote:

Watching people whine on the internet about GW's prices while continuing to pay those same prices is even more entertaining.

Pretty much this. While I'm not pointing out anyone in this thread specifically, if you're really hacked off about the prices, you should put your money where your mouth is and stop buying.



...Did I just agree with Worglock again? Also agreed with his other point in his post.

Hell has frozen over.

New Jersey is actually flooding right now. It's not cold enough to freeze.

Worglock wrote:

RatBot wrote:

Worglock wrote:

Watching people whine on the internet about GW's prices while continuing to pay those same prices is even more entertaining.

Pretty much this. While I'm not pointing out anyone in this thread specifically, if you're really hacked off about the prices, you should put your money where your mouth is and stop buying.



...Did I just agree with Worglock again? Also agreed with his other point in his post.

Hell has frozen over.

New Jersey is actually flooding right now. It's not cold enough to freeze.

*rimshot*

Punishment, no doubt, for the "cast" of The Jersey Shore.

High prices also make the Gw near me not a day care for little kids anymore!

RatBot wrote:

Worglock wrote:

Watching people whine on the internet about GW's prices while continuing to pay those same prices is even more entertaining.

Pretty much this. While I'm not pointing out anyone in this thread specifically, if you're really hacked off about the prices, you should put your money where your mouth is and stop buying.

what makes you think that the people who complain about GW's prices also haven't stopped purchasing product from GW? i haven't purchased any product from GW in a year. granted, I don't really complain about their prices, either, but the point is that to assume one way or the other that someone condemning GW's business model might still support it financially is fallacious. their pricing IS atrocious. the only reasonably priced item i've seen on their website is their meltaguns.

to the OP: it's not reasonable to suppose that making the game more accessible will somehow make the games you play with people you like worse. it will just make the game more accessible and probably more competitive since there will be a broader player base and it will be easier to put together WYSIWYG forces.

Well, I admit I complained about prices for the past year or so before the most recent price "adjustment" but still bought. This year, though, I have not bought any GW and will not buy any GW, as I've begun to investigate and invest in other systems that enjoy just as much, if not more, than GW's.

A lot of people, however, will continue to complain but buy anyway. And if they're doing that, they can complain all they want, but by contributing to GW's coffers, they're giving their approval to GW's pricing. It'd be like going into a restaurant, complaining how terrible the service and the food is and how you're getting ripped off... and going to said restaurant, chowing down, paying, and coming back day after day. You keep paying for it so it must not be that bad, right?

I don't have a problem with the pricing of the models, I enjoy the hobby, I enjoy painting and collecting the models and I will continue to do so. I like GW save for a few rules writers that I have problems with, but whatever. At the end of the day it's just a game... but it's a game that I like quite a bit.

Is the hobby expensive? Yeah, there is no argument there. Lots of hobbies are expensive, doesn't make them any less enjoyable for those that participate.

I do find it strange everyone is claiming someone is 'elitist' when it comes to a war game. In the end I don't totally agree with the OP but can see where he's coming from, he's attempting to find a bright spot in the pricing, sometimes there are no 'brighter' sides to things though.

I've got a question for everyone who keeps bringing up the 1/35th (or whatever) scale tank models and whatnot:

How many of these models are designed as wargaming pieces rather than just actual model kits?

I mean, were I to go and buy a scale model of the USS Enterprise (the aircraft carrier, not the space ship) it wouldn't be to play in my hypothetical Modern Seas wargame, it would be because it was a model kit, one to build, paint, put up on the mantelpiece and hide whenever a girl is over.

That APC kit on the first page, or even the Stug, they have high amounts of detail yes, but none of which are required at all when the model isn't a model kit but is a gaming piece. So I really don't think the comparison between the APC and the Rhino is as valid as some would like it to be. Don't take this to be me defending GW's prices - I would never dream of such a thing - but every time someone says "I can get a [insert WWII tank kit and/or Gundam kit here] for less money and it has more detail!" all I can ever think is "Yes, but is that a model kit, or a miniature designed for a war game?".

MrMerlin wrote:Now imagine the effect this would have on the hobby: Every noob would buy a billion armies, and the gaming community would be crowded with players who aren't taking the game seriously at all. After all, a box of models only costs 5 bucks. Nobody would paint their models to a high standard because theyd have so many

So with the high prizes, you will find only the ones who take the hobby seriously will buid up an army.

AHAHAHAHAHAH!

Yeah ok. You go on thinking that.

Damn, needed a good laugh.

MrMerlin wrote:Just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! You may have the name 'Merlin' in your handle, but you won't be using any tricksy magic to weasel your way out of this one.

'It's just my opinion' is not a 'get out of argument free' card. You cannot blurt out a bunch of nonsense and when people call you immediately hold up your hands and claim it was just opinion.

Whether the kit is intended for gaming or display is irrelevant imho. A plastic model kit is a plastic model kit whatever the usage,

The point still remains that you get a lot more plastic for your bucks. It will cost the scale model manufacturers more to produce their kits than GW because of all the extra detailing.

Having moved across from scale aircraft modelling and seeing what GW put in a box and charge for it in comparison was astonished to see people just blithely accept the ciosts.

As for all hobbies being expensive, again that is no excuse for GW over charging.

My point wasn't to justify GW's costs (of course they're overpriced, especially when you compare it to other kits like people have). My point was more that the level of detail required on scale model kits isn't the same as the level of detail required on wargaming miniatures.

Hi all.
Often the level of detail on a model kit is used to justify higher prices.(Eg resin kits with turned aluminium gun barrels and etched brass details etc.)

I think HMBC was saying the level of detail is less important for gameing pieces.

But if companies manufacturing historical kits , that have to research and deliver higher levels of detail in thier kits than companies producing fictional vehicle gaming pieces.

Why do gamers except such high prices for GW vehilce kits?

The ONLY good thing about GW plc high prices, it is swelling the retirement fund of Mr Tom Kirby...which of course is only good if you are Tom Kirby the man behind the decision making at GW towers for the last decade or so....

RatBot wrote:Or in other words, yeah, a full unit of Bane Knights is going to cost $80. But I'm still only gonna end up spending $350 on a 50 point Army, which is the biggest Warmahordes games usually go, and $350 is on the sightly pricy side for Warmahordes. A 2000 point... I don't know, Dark Eldar Army? $500 to $600? Not sure what a decent list looks like but an Archon, 40 Warriors, 10 Incubi, 5 Raiders, a couple of Ravagers and some Scourges comes out to about that much.

You also need to consider that GW is a large player in the miniatures wargaming market, and Privateer Press is appealing to the same demographic. GW therefore is the driving force behind pricing. If GW can sell a dreadnought for $45, Privateer Press can charge $35 for a heavy warjack and still come out ahead.

I'm sure we'll see something similar with Mantic in the future. Right now they're offering good sculpts at amazing prices. But once they capture a portion of the market you can expect their prices to rise (but still be under GW).