Tentatively bringing this up - respect amongst Dakkanauts

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**ineptus astartes**

*cue evil breathing*
"Strike me down, and-(insert evil line here)"

**Manchu**

@mattyrm: That you would classify 'respecting someone you disagree with' as 'liberal, hippie nonsense' does not surprise me. But surely you can see how such a thing is possible? Do you really think the world is truly as simple as one right answer to every single question?

**Polonius**

Manchu wrote:
Polonius wrote:I rarely post in tactics anymore, because I feel that I can't learn much, and post what help I can.
Pity that. Whenever I read Polonius on IG, I get the urge to buy an IG army and inevitably spend a week with the codex! It's always educational for me, haha.

I haven't been using my IG too much lately, alas. And I'm very much a "good but not great" tatician.

I'm thinking about using them at Hard Boys semis though.

I guess I could take my own advice more though: as you're here a while, you need to share knowledge more to really be a part of meaningful conversation.

**remilia_scarlet**

For me, I can't stand dakka discussion sometimes, because there's a lot of people who pretty much think that if you don't paint and/or you proxy, you're less than gak. I pretty much hate the whole "40k is srs bzns" mindset.

**ineptus astartes**

i proxy.

in fact I proxy IG with WW@ guys.

**mattyrm**

Manchu wrote:@mattyrm: That you would classify 'respecting someone you disagree with' as 'liberal, hippie nonsense' does not surprise me. But surely you can see how such a thing is possible? Do you really think the world is truly as simple as one right answer to every single question?

Well of course, I mean, I can respect someone who has achieved great things but disagree's with me, but your making me analyse this gak too much. Im a brash person because I think that's the quickest way to get gak done.

Sure some people are worthy of respect even if they disagree with me, but most of the time people parrot the "i respect you even though I disagree with you" line simply to try and gain some sort of perceived moral high ground in a debate. I've no time for such nonsense.

Call me a cynic, but I view almost all of it as shenanigans. Just like the fake sympathy you see on internet forums for people you don't know and don't care about, "Oh random stranger your mom died? I am praying for you and im crying right now" or the birthday greetings people send to the friend of a friends sister on facebook, when clearly they couldn't be arsed to actually send said individual an actual card and dont really give a feth either way.

I view almost all of it as bs and ive no time for it. I've more respect for a man who vehemently disagrees with me and calls me a douchebag than some fence sitting chisler who pretends to be all nicey nice whilst having a heated argument and is secretly plotting to crush me.

**Manchu**

I can respect that.

The examples you have certainly sound pretty flakey to me, too. But that's different from saying: "This user and I disagree about Topic X, so s/he must be utterly worthless." I think to approach total strangers, much less acquaintances and friends, otherwise is to set yourself up for a pretty awful reputation for being ... shall we say, eccentric?

**Polonius**

There is also a difference between fence sitting, and not making decision because you don't have the facts, and immediate action isn't required.

Sometimes, poeple actually listen to others and change (or make up) their minds.

**kitch102**

Manchu wrote:Generally: Please stop trolling one another; you are making the thread title ironic.

@OP: Following the rules is not hard. There aren't many of them and they can be summed up as "don't be a douchebag." Unfortunately, there is often a lot of rationalization -- someone thinks that someone else's bad behavior justifies their own, for example. Also, it is possible to disagree with someone without flaming them. Summing up someone else's opinion as "whining," for example, is not merely disagreeing with them. Meanwhile, it is my own observation that trolling/flamebaiting/etc are no more or less prevalent now than ever before: i.e., there is not much of it and 99% of users who are moderated are amenable, recognize their poor behavior, and take steps to do better in the future. Unfortunately, there is a recalcitrant 1% who think an internet message board about toy soldier is the right place to make their big stand against "the Power."

Hey Manchu, yep, I understand the rules, I've read them, I get them. My point is how someone can make an outright attack against another user on more than one occasion in a single thread and not get pulled up on it, whereas other posters who offer a generalised term when backing up their point are rebuked immediately.

I have noticed that some users, after having been on Dakka for a while, get a little restless and start trying to blame the community for why they are not enjoying the site as much as they once did. I think this is where you are right now. I can tell you that my own experience with this community is that the overwhelming majority of users treat each other with respect and seem to enjoy the fellowship. I can also tell you that there is a lot of great content on this site. The moderation is actually petty laid back, except with regard to the serial offenders, and as I already mentioned the rules are both few and sum up the basis of common decency.

Nah, I'm happy with the hobby, the community as a whole etc etc. I haven't been in it long enough to get so peeved as to start wantonly blaming strangers for any of my own frustrations, regardless of their origin. Again, I'm not saying that I've had a bad experience on Dakka with any of the users here, and the reason for the thread was to openly discuss how people interact with others on here. These thoguhts were going to be put in to the thread(s) in question before I realised that doing so would take the thread OT, resulting in it eventually being closed. I'll happily PM you with the details that started this cog whirring, if you'd be interested in seeing my exact point.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote:
Manchu wrote:@mattyrm: That you would classify 'respecting someone you disagree with' as 'liberal, hippie nonsense' does not surprise me. But surely you can see how such a thing is possible? Do you really think the world is truly as simple as one right answer to every single question?

Well of course, I mean, I can respect someone who has achieved great things but disagree's with me, but your making me analyse this gak too much. Im a brash person because I think that's the quickest way to get gak done.

Sure some people are worthy of respect even if they disagree with me, but most of the time people parrot the "i respect you even though I disagree with you" line simply to try and gain some sort of perceived moral high ground in a debate. I've no time for such nonsense.

Call me a cynic, but I view almost all of it as shenanigans. Just like the fake sympathy you see on internet forums for people you don't know and don't care about, "Oh random stranger your mom died? I am praying for you and im crying right now" or the birthday greetings people send to the friend of a friends sister on facebook, when clearly they couldn't be arsed to actually send said individual an actual card and dont really give a feth either way.

I view almost all of it as bs and ive no time for it. I've more respect for a man who vehemently disagrees with me and calls me a douchebag than some fence sitting chisler who pretends to be all nicey nice whilst having a heated argument and is secretly plotting to crush me.

See, I have no problem with that, that's half of being human, the other half being exactly what you've described as what you hate. What does get me riled up though is the sledgehammer "I am right you are wrong" attitudes that I've seen.

**Manchu**

My point is how someone can make an outright attack against another user on more than one occasion in a single thread and not get pulled up on it,

You don't see everything that happens, remember! Public warnings are usually only issued when more than one user is breaking the rules or when the level of rulebreaking is relatively low and folks just need a general reminder (including a reminder not to "fire back.")

whereas other posters who offer a generalised term when backing up their point are rebuked immediately.

@kitch102: PM away!

**sharkticon**

Frazzled wrote:The OT is a cesspool. Get your head out of it and its a much better place. Stay in the toilet, then don't ask why it smells.

For those of you still wondering, it smells because I poop there.

**Grot 6**

kitch102 wrote:Hello folks,

So I'm tentative in writing this, and am trying to take a measured and considered approach in doing so. The purpose of this post is to discuss how we as users respond to eachother in the threads on this site. It may be that I'm wrong in raising the thread and am "over shooting my permissions as a non MOD", if that's the case, well, so be it.

I check in with Dakka daily, and frequently just scan the threads, discussions, gallery and what have you. I've been seeing an increasing amount of flame baiting / trolling, but not necessarily in the sense that you may expect.

I've stopped myself from posting a reply in one topic of conversation tonight, in which I felt it necessary to stand up for a couple of posters who had disagreed with the OP's views by simply expressing their own points. Having re-read each post, I'm confident that neither came across as intentionally rude, they just simply disagreed with the OP. The OP's response was to automatically accuse these people of flaming / trolling, and was blatantly rude to these people purely for having differing views to his / hers. It wasn't many posts after this that a MOD entered and took the stand with the OP, which in my opinion digressed further from Dakkas #1 rule than those who have their own points to make. It seems that the old who watches the watchers saying is quite apt - though I am completely set on this not being said disrespectfully.

I've seen countless other threads / posts that end up doing exactly this - where perhaps someone with x thousands of posts has a view, someone disagrees with it, then there's an almighty flame war between these people which is invariably broken up by a MOD who only agrees with the OP, regardless of the validity of the opposing view point.

I guess the point of this thread is that I felt it necessary to say that I enjoy coming along to Dakka, it's a damn good site with some cracking content from hobbiest with incredible skills, but unfortunately we always seem to be able to drag it down and actually discourage others from posting their views for fear of the impending accusations of flaming, going against the rules etc. I had to find somewhere to post this, it's only right that we all remember that we're here for the same thing. People will always have views that differ to yours, but that doesn't make them wrong, nor does their time or skill in the hobby necessarily affect the validity of what they have to say, and I think that as a community we'd all do well to bear that in mind before we offer a knee jerk reaction of a nasty ass post in response to what was originally intended as a polite counter.

I'm stepping down from the soap box now, I realise how much of a prick I may sound from having written this but honestly I've become fed up with seeing unnecessary attacks on like minded individuals. Remember that there's enough crap going on in the world and the last thing that we need to do is to infect one of the places that we come to chill out with the same poisonous hatred and negativity that we all eventually walk in to just by opening our front doors.

Anyway, best regards to every one here, and thanks for taking the time to read this. Please do post any thoughts that you have in return, whether you agree or disagree.

Thanks,

Kitch102

I don't agree with you.

I think your being soft, and the issue of disagreement and civility isn't as big a deal as you let on.
Not saying that there arn't some real jackholes on dakka, but all in all the Mods here, even if I don't particulary care for one or two, are better then most of the ones on some of the other game boards out there and they do a fine job to keep the general discussions moving forward in a constructive manner. One or two need to take the stick out, but even those are not as inclined to shut you down just on account of disagreement. Usually- people, yeah myself incuded, do something to push the general order of the conversation to one extreme or the other.

They do not just arbitrarily bust someones chops for no other reason then they disagree.

And even IF i don't particulary care for them, I feel that they are all generally fair, do a good job and are on target.

For this point-

"I've stopped myself from posting a reply in one topic of conversation tonight, in which I felt it necessary to stand up for a couple of posters who had disagreed with the OP's views by simply expressing their own points. Having re-read each post, I'm confident that neither came across as intentionally rude, they just simply disagreed with the OP.

The OP's response was to automatically accuse these people of flaming / trolling, and was blatantly rude to these people purely for having differing views to his / hers. It wasn't many posts after this that a MOD entered and took the stand with the OP, which in my opinion digressed further from Dakkas #1 rule than those who have their own points to make. It seems that the old who watches the watchers saying is quite apt - though I am completely set on this not being said disrespectfully."

I'm just going to go on out there and say this is false. I am also going to go on ahead and say - Post an example and don't generalize. OR if you have something specific- then YOU need to go on ahead and get with the individuals in question and keep that to yourselves. As to the leap between "flaming and disareements" Dakka has a large gap in between, and it is human nature to get impassioned on something your talking about. If anything, some people need to have thier chops busted, and they need to take that with a side order of humility.

Because all in all, You can't please everyone all of the time, nor should you.

Don't expect peaches and cream from me. I'm a bitter old curmudgeon full of hate and bitterness.

I drink deeply from the bowels of haterade, and spit the venoms of a 1000 kittens.

**SilverMK2**

I've definitely moved on from the kind of posting I did when I first joined. Now I know a few more users and am in on a few of the inside information and have seen the same threads over and over I'm here less for the wargaming (though obviously it is still a big part of why I am here) and more for taking part of the general community, poking Americans and generally posting in debaty threads.

Though I hope to get more back into the modeling aspect when I have sold off the rest of my (rather large) unpainted model collection and get stuck into a proper, singular project

**CT GAMER**

mattyrm wrote:I've more respect for a man who vehemently disagrees with me and calls me a douchebag

I would imagine that if the mods allowed it more people would do just that.

People are forced to play nice here even if they might otherwise choose to call you a douchebag by nature of it being a moderated forum that forces certain behavior...

**DarknessEternal**

It's the internet, and this site is barely moderated. Respect is close to zero.

**Manchu**

Are you speaking for yourself?

**Shadowbrand**

I am looking at this thread like Tzeench would if he saw Khorne,Nurgle and Slannesh all walk into a bar.

In all seriousness though, this is the internet, if you are offended easily, either grow a hide and deal with it, or leave.

**KamikazeCanuck**

I myself have had a string of bad experiences over the last couple months here. It doesn't really make you want to come back, but I guess that's the point. If you think it's that bad OP then just stop signing in. It is just a wargaming forum after all.

**Lt. Coldfire**

Personally, I think some people take the internet too seriously.
Sometimes people are clearly trolling, but other times maybe you just don't get their humor. It's also hard to show emotion without the use of smilies, so someone who comes across as being rude may not have meant to be. I know I've been misunderstood more than once, offending someone accidentally in the process.
Me though? You'd have to try real hard to offend me or make me not like you in person and that track on the internet only gets extended.

**kitch102**

Grot 6 - fair play and respect. I have no problem that you don't agree with me. In some ways you're helping me to describe my point; I've seen people say "I don't agree with xyz" only for the OP, or whoever, to shout out YOUR VIEWS ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT, BELIEVE THIS OR DIE. And that's what I was posting about.

I would post the topic in question though don't think that doing so would really do any favours, just end up potentially starting something between me and those in question, which isn't what I want to do.

I have no problem with Dakka itself, do not go gak hunting as soon as I log in etc. Comments like "improve your reading ability, wind your neck in" however do wind up, as manners & respect ultimately cost feth all.

That's all my point really is.

**Howard A Treesong**

DarknessEternal wrote:It's the internet, and this site is barely moderated.

Not my perception, the mods are quite active. Just because they, perhaps, don't act on your particular whim doesn't mean they don't moderate.

**CT GAMER**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:It's the internet, and this site is barely moderated.

Not my perception, the mods are quite active. Just because they, perhaps, don't act on your particular whim doesn't mean they don't moderate.

In fact I would argue that they are a little too trigger happy to blow up whole threads when it would be better suited to perhaps be a little more surgical.

Why lock so many threads when it would seem to make more sense to ban/suspend certain repeat offenders that ruin thread after thread?

Suspend the trolls and remove their posts and let threads continue for those that aren't breaking the rules.

Often simply locking a thread is playing right into the trolls hands as they wanted to end/ruin said thread to begin with...

**dogma**

Polonius wrote:
I think this is a great point. Dakka is like any club: after you've been in it a while, what keeps you interested is less the purported content but the relationships and collegiality.

No matter what area you post in (fluff, army lists, painting, rumors) at some point you run out of information you don't have, and will read less, and quite possibly post less. That's when you need to alter your habits. I rarely post in tactics anymore, because I feel that I can't learn much, and post what help I can.

I do post a lot in the dakka and tournament discussions areas and OT. Those are areas where I'im enjoying the conversation more than I'm trying to get information out of it.

This.

I don't play much of anything GW, or tabletop, anymore but I've been on here in various guises since I was 14 (11 years). I've seen people come and go (Snord, Phantomlord, drewriggio) and improved not only my posting but my writing (seriously, the net is a great place to get writing criticism if you can take it)

I don't post much outside the OT because there is little to say, but I keep coming back here because I know several people via this place that I would count as friends.

**NeutronPoison**

I try to keep in mind The Principle of Charity whenever I'm on the internet.

There's an old adage on computer programming discussion groups:

"If a member posts something you believe to be incorrect, do not attack the member or declare the fact to be incorrect. Request clarification."

Someone might surprise you with an insight they hadn't communicated correctly earlier, or that you hadn't read correctly earlier, and you force people to think a little harder about what they said (instead of thinking about how to discredit what you said about what they said).

**Worglock**

Albatross wrote:What about people who like 'poisonous hatred and negativity'? I feel we are being discriminated against in this thread.

'Help! Help! I'm being repressed!'

You're not being repressed, you've got your own personal playground in every thread about GW.

In before "Worgak" and similar.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CT GAMER wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:It's the internet, and this site is barely moderated.

Not my perception, the mods are quite active. Just because they, perhaps, don't act on your particular whim doesn't mean they don't moderate.

In fact I would argue that they are a little too trigger happy to blow up whole threads when it would be better suited to perhaps be a little more surgical.

Why lock so many threads when it would seem to make more sense to ban/suspend certain repeat offenders that ruin thread after thread?

Suspend the trolls and remove their posts and let threads continue for those that aren't breaking the rules.

Often simply locking a thread is playing right into the trolls hands as they wanted to end/ruin said thread to begin with...

If they did that, they wouldn't have the high post counts from their favorites in the GW Hate Brigade.

**Platuan4th**

remilia_scarlet wrote:I pretty much hate the whole "40k is srs bzns" mindset.

I hear you. Then again, I pretty much hate anything being srs bsns.

**H.B.M.C.**

Medium of Death wrote:If you dislike a 'moderation' you can PM the moderator and clearly/politely state your point.

That's a waste of time. Trust me.

**Happygrunt**

Besides for the well known dakka rivalries (HBMC/ Kan, Biccat/ Melissia, Frazzeleld/ Everyone else), I think dakka is a respectable place. Granted, it sucks my time away (Silly AP homework, you can wait), so I get used to it after a while.

**Cryonicleech**

Meh. People disagree. People are dickheads.

Ergo, you get arguments.

People tend to be extreme, but I hardly notice anymore. I just pay attention to the things that interest me.

**nectarprime**

Are we talking about mod hypocrisy? OK, I'm gonna bring this up:

Remember that guy who made awesome tank conversions that included parts that were recast from GW scenery? Everything was fine until someone who will remain nameless forced the mods to do something by constantly complaining. This user even baited the mods in by posting pictures of his own recasts that were painted.
Anyway, the awesome guy who made the sickest tanks I had ever seen left after removing his pics. Really pissed me off, one jealous user had to ruin everyone's good time.
You can see that thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/384577.page

Yet this thread, where a guy is blatantly recasting Squat exo armor, is still fine. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/357761.page
So it's ok if someone doesn't make a big stink about it, apparently.

That really grinds my gears, and is one of the reasons I am looking for a different forum to start posting on.
Sorry if this went off topic :/