Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

gendoikari87 wrote:Flame or bomb, choose one, incindiaries=/=Explosives

Or I can choose both.

"The planet
rocked on its axis as the otherworldly explosion sent pink fire
crackling through the catacombs. Whole sections of the
labyrinthine archives collapsed under the force of the blast,
and datastacks that had stood inviolate for millennia shifted
and toppled. Caught full in the torrents of twisting
Warpflame, the Guardsmen were incinerated to a man.
Proteded by their superior armour, the Invaders fared better,
though many were crushed by falling blocks of masonry or
lost to the bottomless fissures that tore open the Librarium's
floors."

It was both an incinerating flame, yet had concussive, explosive force. Logical? Not really. But nor is anything that is from the Warp.

ironic because the 30mm's we have to day barely just are able to do that if they can and require multiple hits. IFV's might fear them but the abrams and the other MBT's don't much unless the vehicle firing it fires at over 3000RPM

I'm not seeing your point.

Wishful thinking and poor science. Actually poor geometry even, as the guards would stop any cut from going through.

Afraid not. With teeth of the chainsword is more durable than modern tank armour, and they are sharper than any blade on the planet. Which is effectively impossible IRL, but their physical properties allow them to do so.

You can fanboy all you want guys but the weapons of 40k aren't really that effective and the tactics of the space marines will them them killed.

Not really. The Marines would have killed all commanding officers during the first assault, as is their job. And they would then set up a perimeter to defend, and their own air support would disallow a Tomahawk from reaching them.

A single Titan could take on the entire United States Military and have a decent chance of winning.

Imperial armour gives the conventional steel equivalent of a land raider of 300mm Even the RPG-7 has upwards of 500, but the guard equivalent missile launcher (german Panzerschrek) is just shy of 300.

The abrams main gun IIRC has an average penetration of about 1200 with it's 125mm HEAT round.

"The planet
rocked on its axis as the otherworldly explosion sent pink fire
crackling through the catacombs. Whole sections of the
labyrinthine archives collapsed under the force of the blast,
and datastacks that had stood inviolate for millennia shifted
and toppled. Caught full in the torrents of twisting
Warpflame, the Guardsmen were incinerated to a man.
Proteded by their superior armour, the Invaders fared better,
though many were crushed by falling blocks of masonry or
lost to the bottomless fissures that tore open the Librarium's
floors."

It was both an incinerating flame, yet had concussive, explosive force. Logical? Not really. But nor is anything that is from the Warp.

So they were protected by the blast but yet killed by falling masonry, yes very valid source indeed

gendoikari87 wrote:

Ceramic won't stop a lasgun while flak armour will easily stop any sub- .50cal rounds. Ceramic is a good insulator, but not against a highly focused pulse carrying kinetic energy as well as thousands of degrees celsius of thermal energy.

Really cause physics says your wrong.

And what part of physics says a thin sheet of ceramic will insulate against a beam thousands of degrees hot, focused on a single spot of the armour?

An autocannon is pretty much a semi-auto 75mm tank cannon, but much more reliable and portable than any we've come up with.

Scaled it's actually a 30mm, the only source that says it's any larger is an old source from way before they changed fluff around.

An Autocannon may fulfill the same role as a 30mm but it's significantly more powerful. I know gameplay doesn't equal fluff, but when the 40k equivelent of a 30mm grenade is strength 3 and an Autocannon is strength 7 you know which one's more powerful.

Firstly, a lasgun is in no way weaker than a basic assault rifle, it's infinitely more accurate, reliable, efficient and more powerful.

.
Fluff says your wrong.

Accurate: It's a laser beam, rounds will connect instantly and will always travel in a straight line. Fix a scope and bam, extreme accuracy at any range.
Efficient: You can get more rounds by leaving it in the sun, what more needs to be said?
Powerful: Not by the standards of the 41st millenium. By our standards, it's extremely powerful; novels often show it to be capable of cutting through lines of men and blowing limbs clean off.

And what part of physics says a thin sheet of ceramic will insulate against a beam thousands of degrees hot, focused on a single spot of the armour?

it's called Insulative properties and specific heat.

An Autocannon may fulfill the same role as a 30mm but it's significantly more powerful. I know gameplay doesn't equal fluff, but when the 40k equivelent of a 30mm grenade is strength 3 and an Autocannon is strength 7 you know which one's more powerful.

Wow, stupid meter just went off. You realize 30mm grenade is not the same thing as a 30mm autocannon shell right? It's like saying a ferrari and a Civic have the same properties because they're the same width.

Powerful: Not by the standards of the 41st millenium. By our standards, it's extremely powerful; novels often show it to be capable of cutting through lines of men and blowing limbs clean off.

Less powerful than AUTOGUNS, which are basically the G11 which is roughly equivalent to standard assault rifles.

again, we have a standard to compare 40k equipment to, a land raider is 300mm steel armor equivalent.

No substance is a perfect insulator. What is the heat capacity of said ceramic?

gendoikari87 wrote:So they were protected by the blast but yet killed by falling masonry, yes very valid source indeed

The durability of the armour doesn't mean much when thousands, maybe millions of tons of material just fell on you. Even if the impact didn't kill the Marine outright, he wouldn't be able to move.

gendoikari87 wrote:

An Autocannon may fulfill the same role as a 30mm but it's significantly more powerful. I know gameplay doesn't equal fluff, but when the 40k equivelent of a 30mm grenade is strength 3 and an Autocannon is strength 7 you know which one's more powerful.

Wow, stupid meter just went off. You realize 30mm grenade is not the same thing as a 30mm autocannon shell right? It's like saying a ferrari and a Civic have the same properties because they're the same width.

A 30mm shell is pretty much what a Boltgun fires. An Autocannon is significantly larger than a boltgun, has a larger explosive radius, is more penetrative-the round itself is significantly more powerful. All art depictions show the round to be larger than a 30mm AC shell, in the game it is, in the fluff it's shown to be more powerful than a 30mm.
And yay! Ad hominem attacks!

Powerful: Not by the standards of the 41st millenium. By our standards, it's extremely powerful; novels often show it to be capable of cutting through lines of men and blowing limbs clean off.

Less powerful than AUTOGUNS, which are basically the G11 which is roughly equivalent to standard assault rifles.

Aside from the fact that they aren't less powerful than autoguns, there's also this bit in bold.

Won't the imperium get mind-raped upon seeing the little plastic representations of themselves?

"Our Existence is a lie! We are but the imaginations of a bunch of nerds!"

Drop podding in/teleporting in is a bad move tactically unless you have a very fast mode of transportation or are great at stealth. Remember what the best method of killing terminators is? massed lasgun fire. and I've already show that modern assault rifles are more powerful than lasguns. Granted they would be good at taking out a tank or two before they're utterly wiped from existance. And remember deepstriking is disruptive.

Other Stats

M1A1 average armor equivalent is about 350-600mm, it's main gun with just the APFSDS has a penetration of 560mm. So say what you want, the simple fact of the matter is imperial tech is based on 80's era (or in some cases 1940's) earth tech in concept, and we got a lot better since then.

The space marines are cool but if you tried to pull their stunts on a real battlefield it would be suicide missions, actually even on the tabletop they can be suicide missions if you DS in and get hit by an IG artillery blast.

Aside from the fact that they aren't less powerful than autoguns, there's also this bit in bol

One word for you: Inquisitor

A 30mm shell is pretty much what a Boltgun fires. An Autocannon is significantly larger than a boltgun, has a larger explosive radius, is more penetrative-the round itself is significantly more powerful. All art depictions show the round to be larger than a 30mm AC shell, in the game it is, in the fluff it's shown to be more powerful than a 30mm.
And yay! Ad hominem attacks!

no it's not, a HEAVY bolter fires 1.00 bullets, basically, this

gendoikari87 wrote:

A Leman Russ is armoured like nothing we've ever seen. Ceramite and Adamantium are obviously several times stronger than steel and a Russ is covered thickly in it. Their guns are obviously significantly more powerful than 120mms, plus they have space-age targetting systems and a huge engine that rarely breaks down and will run on anything.

Leman russ is also slow, unsophisticated and tall. The abrams main gun might not be a giant freaking cannon but it's also not a simple explosive shell. The abrams and leman russ could reliably blast each other apart, abrams being faster, and arguably more accurate. Edge Abrams.

Abrams has speed and maneuverability. The Russ wins on every other level. Even if your Abrams can take out one Russ, which is likely considering it's speed, there's another five targeting that one Abrams at the same time. Winner, Russ.

And if there are Space Marines, then there are Land Raiders. I would like to see our Abrams try to take that thing out.

it's called high explosive anti tank rounds, and one of the imperial armour books gave the steel armor equivalent of the land radier, it was less than half that of the penetration of modern HEAT rounds. As a matter of fact even the APFSDS can penetrate a land raider.

Contradicting sources. There are numerous others which give Land Raiders surviving silly amounts of damage. Plus the Land Raider is as fast, with much better weaponry, is a troop transport, and has much more advanced technology within it's armored hull.

And what about the LR Vanquisher? In the fluff, that thing is an amazing tank hunter.

Even worse of a match up than the regular leman russ, both can easily penetrate the other, but the abrams is faster more agile and has a lower profile.

Even worse? Really? The Vanquisher would gut the Abrams with a single shot from extreme range. This is a gun that can punch through Titan armour.

Our armor cannot withstand an assualt rifle hit, which is equal to an autogun which is equal to a lasgun. Las will punch right through.

Also untrue the current intercepter armor has a ceramic plate that will stop an assualt rifle, which being ceramic will also stop that lasgun.

A Lasgun isn't you're average kinetic round assault rifle. It causes a small plasma explosion on the surface, that's going to pulp the insides of any person it hits, knocking them over, with pin-point accuracy. Flak armor withstands this, it covers more of the body, and every single soldier has a set. The Lasgun is a weapon so vastly superior to anything we have as standard on inantry it's silly to even talk about it.

Their flak armor can stop a freaking .50cal round. (heavy stubber is equivalent to a .50cal).

actually it's patterend off the M1919 .30 which is about as powerful as an FN FAL or any of the other 7.62x51NATO assault rifles.

The Browning was a light machine gun. The stubber is based off heavy machine guns of the post WWII era. If what you say is true, then you're average Guardsmen is protected from the assault rifle fire of our average infantry.

An autocannon is about the equal to a 20th century tank gun.

If by tank you mean it's a transplanted 25mm, then yes, otherwise no. the rounds aren't even that much changed.

There's a stupid variety of them though. Mass-reactive? Caseless? Solid?

"Direct hit! Wait... no, he scratched the paintwork but it's an Ultramarine and he's just glad to have less of that horrible colour scheme."

Pure Fanboyism, Even if the marines armor was intact the shock wave would kill all of them.

They Astartes are either in a building, in a tank, in the air, or standing right beside the launcher. Regardless, their armor is designed to protect them from this kind of thing. Not that we'd be able to fire anything that relies on satellites.

not to mention all their Melta and Plasma weaponry

Which is short ranged and gives away your position. Our boys would laugh at a guy running up to them with a melta gun.

And rightly so, that Guardsmen shouldn't be running at them trying to use it in combat against infantry. A plasma gun or a meltagun wouldn't be used in that way. They'd use it to melt the hulls of any tank within range, or just melt through walls and pieces of cover.

Even heavy bolters would be effective weapons against our battletanks.

Not really, something that can't even penetrate marine armor has no chance against a tank.

Marine armour is tank armour. Heavy Bolters go through Power Armour, ergo, tank armour is not proof against Heavy Bolters, or even normal bolters.

You's trollin'! Seriously. Get out please.

You be Fanboys! Seriously. Get out please.

Nah. You're just in denial.

I highly doubt the US Military would use tomahawk missile on its own position to begin with and tomahawk aren't much use without gps... which would be knocked out long before the Astartes would be deployed.

Which is the only thing the imperium has that puts them as the winners. Take those space ships away and we outclass them in every way except for sheer numbers. hell they even acknowledge that the lasgun is weaker than the basic assault rifle in the inquisitor books, the only reason it's used is it's easier to resupply and manufacture.

gendoikari87 wrote:

A Leman Russ is armoured like nothing we've ever seen. Ceramite and Adamantium are obviously several times stronger than steel and a Russ is covered thickly in it. Their guns are obviously significantly more powerful than 120mms, plus they have space-age targetting systems and a huge engine that rarely breaks down and will run on anything.

Leman russ is also slow, unsophisticated and tall. The abrams main gun might not be a giant freaking cannon but it's also not a simple explosive shell. The abrams and leman russ could reliably blast each other apart, abrams being faster, and arguably more accurate. Edge Abrams.

The Leman Russ has ammunition capable of making squads of infantry blow away. Hence it states in the rules, Large Blast. Adamantium plating is many times stronger than steel, and the whole tank has inches of it as an armor. A shot from the Ambrams is equivalent to a blast from a rather large frag grenade. I wonder, how are those shells capable of penetrating metal equivalent to titanium alloy, if not stronger? Also, it has variants designed specially to take down other tanks. If nothing else helps, their power is in numbers.

And if there are Space Marines, then there are Land Raiders. I would like to see our Abrams try to take that thing out.

it's called high explosive anti tank rounds, and one of the imperial armour books gave the steel armor equivalent of the land radier, it was less than half that of the penetration of modern HEAT rounds. As a matter of fact even the APFSDS can penetrate a land raider.

A Land Raider's hull is capable of withstanding a direct hit from a Las-cannon. Our weapons are nothing compared to that. Imagine hundreds of industrial-class lasers duct-taped together and fired on a tank. Not even close to the power of a Las-round.

And what about the LR Vanquisher? In the fluff, that thing is an amazing tank hunter.

Even worse of a match up than the regular leman russ, both can easily penetrate the other, but the abrams is faster more agile and has a lower profile.

Where did you learn a regular Leman Russ can take down a Land Raider? Source or it didn't happen. Also, LRBT has a hull-mounted Las-cannon.

The only advantage that we have against their armor is their high profile. But that only works for seeing where the tanks are, not really helping to destroy them

Untrue, if you are actually a good tactician you can make this count, a lot, as evidenced by a lot of cases in WWII.

Yes, because back then the tanks were equal. Imagine putting a Sherman agaist an Abrams. That's what happens when you pit a LRBT against an Abrams.

Our armor cannot withstand an assualt rifle hit, which is equal to an autogun which is equal to a lasgun. Las will punch right through.
Also untrue the current intercepter armor has a ceramic plate that will stop an assualt rifle, which being ceramic will also stop that lasgun.

So you are saying that even laser cannot pierce a standard-issue body armor? Now, imagine a dozen industrial-grade lasers pointed at an armor. That is how powerful a lasgun is.

Their flak armor can stop a freaking .50cal round. (heavy stubber is equivalent to a .50cal).
actually it's patterend off the M1919 .30 which is about as powerful as an FN FAL or any of the other 7.62x51NATO assault rifles.

A Heavy Stubber can destroy light vehicles, heavy infantry (with power armor) and infantry with ease. An assault rifle has troubles even taking down a hum-vee.

An autocannon is about the equal to a 20th century tank gun.

If by tank you mean it's a transplanted 25mm, then yes, otherwise no. the rounds aren't even that much changed.

It is capable of penetrating light vehicles, Power Armor and even do some damage to heavy armor. Imagine the german Flak 88 on rapid fire. That is how an AC works.

"Direct hit! Wait... no, he scratched the paintwork but it's an Ultramarine and he's just glad to have less of that horrible colour scheme."
Pure Fanboyism, Even if the marines armor was intact the shock wave would kill all of them.

Shock wave kills because organs rupture and muscles damage. Space Marines have implants which prevent that. Their body is much more durable than a regular human's. Besides they have armor capable of withstanding even plasma fire to some degree. A SM is basically a walking tank.

not to mention all their Melta and Plasma weaponry

Which is short ranged and gives away your position. Our boys would laugh at a guy running up to them with a melta gun.

"Your boys" laugh would die when they saw hundreds of troopers in unbreakable armor charging you with those. Besides, they are AT weapons. Only a fool would charge infantry with those.

Even heavy bolters would be effective weapons against our battletanks.

Not really, something that can't even penetrate marine armor has no chance against a tank.

Source or it didn't happen. It fires self-propelled fist-sized miniature rockets which explode upon impact. Thats because Marine armor is superior to our own. Equals a bazooka. On rapid fire.

You's trollin'! Seriously. Get out please.


You be Fanboys! Seriously. Get out please.

"You are fanboys". You do realise you are on a Warhammer 40k thread. What did you expect? Patriotism and national anthems?

I highly doubt the US Military would use tomahawk missile on its own position to begin with and tomahawk aren't much use without gps... which would be knocked out long before the Astartes would be deployed.

Which is the only thing the imperium has that puts them as the winners. Take those space ships away and we outclass them in every way except for sheer numbers. hell they even acknowledge that the lasgun is weaker than the basic assault rifle in the inquisitor books, the only reason it's used is it's easier to resupply and manufacture.

I would be interested in how you are planning to take over 5 mile (10km) long space ships down with our weapons? I know, you are going to say nukes. I say void shields. You are going to say airforce. I say Hydra Flak Tank and logic engines. Where did you learn that our fighters are better than flying tanks which shoot huge laser beams, missiles, rockets and the Emperor knows what else. Untrue. Which one would you have rather pointed at you: a rapid fire projectile gun which shoots small projectiles, or a rapid firing rifle which can take out tanks at maximum power setting.

Even worse? Really? The Vanquisher would gut the Abrams with a single shot from extreme range. This is a gun that can punch through Titan armour.

See it's statements like this that make it hard to take you guys seriously. So what? it can punch through more, when the original can do the same with a blast effect for infantry. By the way, the Vanquisher is basically an M256 120mm Sabot shot.

Once you both have the firepower to annihilate each other speed wins, and if you are matched in all taht, then infantry ability and skill prevail.

Contradicting sources.

Easily said about everything concerning the stuff from 40k.

A Lasgun isn't you're average kinetic round assault rifle. It causes a small plasma explosion on the surface, that's going to pulp the insides of any person it hits, knocking them over, with pin-point accuracy. Flak armor withstands this, it covers more of the body, and every single soldier has a set. The Lasgun is a weapon so vastly superior to anything we have as standard on inantry it's silly to even talk about it.

Source or GTFO cause inquisitor says your wrong.

Nah. You're just in denial.

Proove me wrong, I've shown sources both real world and fluff, all you've done is spew fanboysim out your ass. Also your wrong so go ahead and try to find sources, it'll take a LONG while.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Even worse? Really? The Vanquisher would gut the Abrams with a single shot from extreme range. This is a gun that can punch through Titan armour.

See it's statements like this that make it hard to take you guys seriously. So what? it can punch through more, when the original can do the same with a blast effect for infantry. By the way, the Vanquisher is basically an M256 120mm Sabot shot.

Once you both have the firepower to annihilate each other speed wins, and if you are matched in all taht, then infantry ability and skill prevail.

Contradicting sources.

Easily said about everything concerning the stuff from 40k.

A Lasgun isn't you're average kinetic round assault rifle. It causes a small plasma explosion on the surface, that's going to pulp the insides of any person it hits, knocking them over, with pin-point accuracy. Flak armor withstands this, it covers more of the body, and every single soldier has a set. The Lasgun is a weapon so vastly superior to anything we have as standard on inantry it's silly to even talk about it.

Source or GTFO cause inquisitor says your wrong.
Lexicanum, Codex:Imperial Guard, basically any other wikia I can think of.

Nah. You're just in denial.

Proove me wrong, I've shown sources both real world and fluff, all you've done is spew fanboysim out your ass. Also your wrong so go ahead and try to find sources, it'll take a LONG while.

Read my previous note.

Interceptor armor is rated to stop 9mm rounds moving @ 1,400 ft/s. Add the plates and it can stop upto 3 7.62x51mm NATO M80 ball.. Meaning it might not even stop one. And there has been controversey over how much it protects. It doesn't protect the sides or the shoulders. At best it provides a 6+ save.

A heavy stubber is equivalent to a heavy machine gun. A heavy machine gun is generally a .50 cal or 12.7mm. Flak armor will reliably stop one. Edge Flak Armor.

Still say the abrams is at best av 12. An RPG is prob equal to a str 6 weapon, and they can pen challenger II. And Damage abrams. Which would equal at least a glance. Hence AV 12 at best. Edge goes to Leman Russ for armor.

Air force, well a modern helicopter cant take a direct missile hit. Vendettas and StormRavens can. Iom has edge in gunships. I dont know about lightnings and marauders. so i wont speculate.

Space marines are considered to be walking tanks. They shrug off small arms with ease. It would take a direct hit from a tow to bring one down, or a lot of dakka.

And your judging it from a US military perspective. Generally coincided the most advanced military in the world. And arguably the best all a round. About 2.4 million in total. However, other militarys arnt as good as ours.

IoM winds hand down, they have the firepower, the logistics, and the sheer numbers to beat us.

A shot from the Ambrams is equivalent to a blast from a rather large frag grenade.

wow, stupid statement is stupid. It's a shaped charge, not a simple explosive. the difference in penetrative qualities is quite litterally HUNDREDS of times, possibly even thousands of times more.

So you are saying that even laser cannot pierce a standard-issue body armor? Now, imagine a dozen industrial-grade lasers pointed at an armor. That is how powerful a lasgun is.

are you even familiar with what specific heat means? Also you are aware that the autoguns in inquisitor have a higher penetration than a lasgun right?

It is capable of penetrating light vehicles, Power Armor and even do some damage to heavy armor. Imagine the german Flak 88 on rapid fire. That is how an AC works.

Stop being so stupid, and german 88 was an 88mm gun, WAY different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Still say the abrams is at best av 12. An RPG is prob equal to a str 6 weapon, and they can pen challenger II. And Damage abrams. Which would equal at least a glance. Hence AV 12 at best. Edge goes to Leman Russ for armor.

your wrong, but continue to believe so without any evidence supporting your side fanboys, i've prooven you wrong with math, fluff, and weapons data, and you still continue, you are idiots. Goodbye.

As much as comparisons of modern military tech to (often times) poorly described/conceived 40k weaponry is fun...i have to throw in my 2c.

The IoM would win the maneuver war. They would drop in and destroy our leadership and logistics, thus disorganizing us and removing our ability to fight in a protracted context. The Space Marines would take care of that bit. Once that was done they would bring down the IG and use them to crush the remained of the resistance with superior numbers and SM support.

Criticize teleportation and drop podding all you want...I agree that in a pitched battle situation they would be silly...but in the context of a global conquest they are masterful. Who cares how strong our militaries are if the nerve centres of all key armed forces are stuck simultaneously by overwhelming fire power. This combined with orbital and aerial strikes on key airfields, shipyards, supply depots, and bases would cripple our ability to fight in the opening hours of the war. If you thought that launching a bunch of cruise missiles and bombs at Iraq was Shock and Awe...the SM would take it to a whole new level.

Anyway. I maintain that Earth's ability to fight would be crippled within hours of refusing to submit, to be followed by a short and bloody pacification campaign.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Still say the abrams is at best av 12. An RPG is prob equal to a str 6 weapon, and they can pen challenger II. And Damage abrams. Which would equal at least a glance. Hence AV 12 at best. Edge goes to Leman Russ for armor.

Shouldn't it be the other way round, since the Challenger 2 has superior armour to an Abrams? IIRC one took something like 70 RPG shots in Basra and survived. Another took 14 RPGs and a Milan and was operational again in 6 hours.

Concider you are right for a moment... ( even if your not) That Amurica!!!!!! is the BEST EVERZZZZ! And pwns everthing with its awesome guns. Consider the numbers game. Go on, think about. I'll wait.

Oh your back.

Then go ask nazi germany. They had the best tanks. The best tactics, the best planes, the best weapons. And they lost. Because they where out numbered.

Oh the challenger is better. Improves my argument even more. I was refering to this line from wikipedia when i wqas looking up rpgs. "August 2006, an RPG-29 round penetrated the frontal ERA of a Challenger 2 tank during an engagement in al-Amarah, Iraq and wounded several crew members"

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Concider you are right for a moment... ( even if your not) That Amurica!!!!!! is the BEST EVERZZZZ! And pwns everthing with its awesome guns. Consider the numbers game. Go on, think about. I'll wait.

The funny thing is, the Abrams uses Chobham armour, which is British.

Why do you even post on this forum? You say you use maths, facts, and examples from the fluff. I'm reality, you've used two facts from Inquisitor and Imperial Armour (neither of which are reliable) and your own rough comparisons, which aren't largely backed up by anything. So no, you aren't right, so I'd stop your arrogant insulting.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Even worse? Really? The Vanquisher would gut the Abrams with a single shot from extreme range. This is a gun that can punch through Titan armour.

See it's statements like this that make it hard to take you guys seriously. So what? it can punch through more, when the original can do the same with a blast effect for infantry. By the way, the Vanquisher is basically an M256 120mm Sabot shot.

Once you both have the firepower to annihilate each other speed wins, and if you are matched in all taht, then infantry ability and skill prevail.

You have proven that 1-on-1, the Abrams could win. However, for every shot 1 Abrams makes, there will be at least 4 or so shooting at that Abrams in return. The IG ALWAYS attacks with a large amount of armor and men, and quickly. When the huge IG drop pods are used, entire armoured companies can be deployed in a short amount of time.

There would also be aircraft to contend with, such as Vendettas, which would fire 6 lascannon shots at 1 target, which would most likely destroy an Abrams.

gendoikari87 wrote:your wrong, but continue to believe so without any evidence supporting your side fanboys, i've prooven you wrong with math, fluff, and weapons data, and you still continue, you are idiots. Goodbye.

You haven't actually proved much of anything, really.

You've cherry-picked at contradicting sources, name-dropped random sources without so much as a quote (For that matter, an autogun is similar in appearance and operation to a modern firearm, that does not in fact imply they are equivelant), brought up random scientific terms without explaining the context behind them to inform those who may not be familiar with them, and insulted anyone who disagreed with you.

You clearly have no concept of logical debate nor are you capable of adequately explaining your point to your opposition in an effort to get them to understand how you reached your conclusion. You're an immature brat who states things and then goes on a pathetic temper tantrum when people disagree with your view.

You're clearly the idiot here.

gendoikari87 wrote:

A shot from the Ambrams is equivalent to a blast from a rather large frag grenade.

wow, stupid statement is stupid. It's a shaped charge, not a simple explosive. the difference in penetrative qualities is quite litterally HUNDREDS of times, possibly even thousands of times more.

Source? Besides, it was about taking down infantry. A larger blast is more effective than a blast which is designed to take down armored targets.

So you are saying that even laser cannot pierce a standard-issue body armor? Now, imagine a dozen industrial-grade lasers pointed at an armor. That is how powerful a lasgun is.

are you even familiar with what specific heat means? Also you are aware that the autoguns in inquisitor have a higher penetration than a lasgun right?

And I take it that Inquisitor is the viable source? An armor can withstand a certain amount of heat, yes. Laser focuses that heat on a square-centimeter. Lasguns actually cause a small plasma-explosion on the surface. It blows a piece out of your chest. Imagine that effect on rapid fire.

It is capable of penetrating light vehicles, Power Armor and even do some damage to heavy armor. Imagine the german Flak 88 on rapid fire. That is how an AC works.

Stop being so stupid, and german 88 was an 88mm gun, WAY different.

The Flak 88 was devastating at its time. No tank could withstand prolonged fire from it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Still say the abrams is at best av 12. An RPG is prob equal to a str 6 weapon, and they can pen challenger II. And Damage abrams. Which would equal at least a glance. Hence AV 12 at best. Edge goes to Leman Russ for armor.

your wrong, but continue to believe so without any evidence supporting your side fanboys, i've prooven you wrong with math, fluff, and weapons data, and you still continue, you are idiots. Goodbye.

Personal attacks are against DakkaDakka rules. Thanks! ~Manchu

An autogun and a lasgun in Dark Heresy have the exact same statistics.

I am just saying.

Edited by Manchu

He was also not saying that the Flak 88 would work today. He was commenting on how the AC from 40K is comparable to the Flak 88, not that they are the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I would prefer if we did not comment on each others grammer. It does not matter much in this instance.

Void__Dragon wrote:An autogun and a lasgun in Dark Heresy have the exact same statistics.

I am just saying.

Question though, what sources did you use? hmmm. Non, and you just pulled dark heresy out of your ass which kind of helped my point. I'm done with this argument, i've won, not that you'll ever see much less admit that.

Lol? Did you see what he posted? Maybe you could comment on how he shouldn't insult other posters like he's done twice now?

gendoikari87 wrote:Question though, what sources did you use? hmmm. Non, and you just pulled dark heresy out of your ass which kind of helped my point. I'm done with this argument, i've won, not that you'll ever see much less admit that.

I quoted the Grey Knights codex for one.

I pulled Dark Heresy out of my ass? Both the lasgun and autogun have a pen of 0, and do 1d10+3 damage.

EDIT: Never mind...stated above.

Rule Number One of DakkaDakka is Be Polite! Please endeavor to follow this rule. Thanks! ~Manchu