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hey when you say things like a 30mm grenade is the same thing as a 30mm cannon shell, it comes with a territory.

Calling you an idiot was out of line however, I'm sorry. but you are poorly misinformed on everything from the real world.

Once a ship enters our atomsphere we are basically screwed.

Asherian Command wrote:Once a ship enters our atomsphere we are basically screwed.

Well that goes without saying the dang things have freaking nova cannons, railguns as big as WWII battleships and torpedos that make the Tzar Bomba look like pop rocks. The argument is about everything ELSE. Mostly because some people think the rule of cool extends into reality.

gendoikari87 makes some good points (like SM tactics being slowed IRL), I think he underestimates the effect having all our leadership/command & control decapitated early int he conflict would have on organized resistance. Modern military tactics requires an enormous level of coordination, and early Space Marine attacks/orbital bombardment would take out most of our key centers of leadership. Terminators wouldn't teleport into the middle of Fort Bragg, they'd teleport into the middle of The Pentagon.

Imperium would also easily establish air superiority by taking out airfields, which you can't exactly hide. Their aircraft are VTOL or space-launched.

Actually the argument is the IoM vs the Earth. Which would include all the inferior earth militaries, and the Imperial Fleet.

gendoikari87 wrote:hey when you say things like a 30mm grenade is the same thing as a 30mm cannon shell, it comes with a territory.

Calling you an idiot was out of line however, I'm sorry. but you are poorly misinformed on everything from the real world.

I am not agreeing that it is a 30MM shell, but it is still more than a 30MM grenade. A "bolt" is a .75cal rocket propelled explosive round. With Kraken bolts, i think that a normal bolter could punch through armor quite easily (not heavy armor mind you). A Kraken bolt is basically a small sabot round.

Well, we get fethed don't we.

I think he underestimates the effect having all our leadership/command & control decapitated early int he conflict would have on organized resistance.

I don't underestimate it I question the ability to actually do so by first announcing your coming to the doorstep and showing up.

A "bolt" is a .75cal rocket propelled explosive round.

Yes basically an XM307 only the xm307 is 1.00 Caliber.

With Kraken bolts, i think that a normal bolter could punch through armor quite easily (not heavy armor mind you).

Krakens possibly, still would be subject to chance and need a lot of them to do much to a tank.

Tarkand wrote:
Now to mention that war on Earth would be all about city conflicts... Titan are kinda meh in those settings.

And thus began the pre-firing rights to the "turn a city into a rubble strewn plain" cannon...

gendoikari87 wrote:

I think he underestimates the effect having all our leadership/command & control decapitated early int he conflict would have on organized resistance.

I don't underestimate it I question the ability to actually do so by first announcing your coming to the doorstep and showing up.

A "bolt" is a .75cal rocket propelled explosive round.

Yes basically an XM307 only the xm307 is 1.00 Caliber.

With Kraken bolts, i think that a normal bolter could punch through armor quite easily (not heavy armor mind you).

Krakens possibly, still would be subject to chance and need a lot of them to do much to a tank.

Meet Lascannon and Melta Gun. Are forces are gone. on the first strike. They would idenitfy all threat areas hit us where it hurts blowing up entire cities, nukes won't do anything. And our entire airforce is destroyed by a single hydra cannon.

Quite simple Chuck Norris will rise as one of the missing Primarch the Emperors greatest lost son, but he will refuse and proceed to rounhouse kick the imperium into submission

JamesMclaren123 wrote:Quite simple Chuck Norris will rise as one of the missing Primarch the Emperors greatest lost son, but he will refuse and proceed to rounhouse kick the imperium into submission

That is an entirely new argument isn't it, emporer V Chuck Norris

Edit: V Master Chief.

Edit2: also, Man portable Heavy bolter http://world.guns.ru/grenade/usa/xm25-e.html

Tarkand wrote:
The Germans attempted to build Super heavy tanks in real life after all, and those ended up being a failure because they made easy target for bombing run from enemy planes and the Germans simply couldn't make armor solid enough to survive the bombardment.

They were also temperamental (overengineered).

We may as well just surrender and join the Imperium (what's the worst that can happen?). All 40k players would probably be forced into service for the Inquisition.

Nah. It's a semi-automatic grenade launcher. The Heavy Bolter is not a semi-automatic grenade launcher.

Things like a Tomahawk could kill or severely injure a squad of Space Marines, but I can't see hitting a unit that combines the mobility of an infantryman with the armour of a light tank as particularly easy. Like Heinlein's Mobile Infantry they wouldn't be standing still, they'd be here, there, and everywhere destroying, killing and generally raising hell. Ignore the "tactics" we see on the tabletop. Marines can be expected to use the best tactics of any military on Earth, with the possible exception of camouflage and concealment which isn't easy for someone seven foot tall in armour and painted in bright primary colours... but then they are wearing a suit of tank armour.

Not to mention that firing a missile would instantly expose the missile carrier to retaliation from space. Something that would be true of any launch platform. Even submarines would be vaporized (along with a few million tons of sea water) by a Nova Cannon or the like.

It can reasonably be expected that technology has advanced in the 20-30,000 years between our time and the time of the Great Crusade. Drawing comparisons to weapons and armour of our day is how the writers build a link between ourselves and the game. The adamantium armour on a Land Raider would probably be closer to 500mm thick and provides the protection of 1000mm of steel armour which means it's still vulnerable to some weapons (like HEAT rounds) but that's okay. The point of any tank is that it balances the requirements of protection, firepower, and mobility. The Land Raider is (or should be) better protected, carries more firepower, and travels faster than any modern tank. It need not be invulnerable, after all there are a variety of weapons that destroy them easily even in the 41st millennium.

Lasguns are equivalent to an assault rifle, that is what they're supposed to be like. I'd say they're closer to a 7.62mm Nato than the 5.56mm in terms of power. Flak armour is superior to modern body armour, not just in terms of protection but also in terms of mobility and comfort while wearing it. Of course they could also field a thousand men for every soldier on Earth, so they'd swamp us with numbers if nothing else.

Imperium of Man versus Earth. We'd lose, of course, because we can't match the firepower, mobility, armour, or sheer numbers that the IoM would bring to bear if they really decided to whack us.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Things like a Tomahawk could kill or severely injure a squad of Space Marines, but I can't see hitting a unit that combines the mobility of an infantryman with the armour of a light tank as particularly easy. Like Heinlein's Mobile Infantry they wouldn't be standing still, they'd be here, there, and everywhere destroying, killing and generally raising hell. Ignore the "tactics" we see on the tabletop. Marines can be expected to use the best tactics of any military on Earth, with the possible exception of camouflage and concealment which isn't easy for someone seven foot tall in armour and painted in bright primary colours... but then they are wearing a suit of tank armour.

Not to mention that firing a missile would instantly expose the missile carrier to retaliation from space. Something that would be true of any launch platform. Even submarines would be vaporized (along with a few million tons of sea water) by a Nova Cannon or the like.

It can reasonably be expected that technology has advanced in the 20-30,000 years between our time and the time of the Great Crusade. Drawing comparisons to weapons and armour of our day is how the writers build a link between ourselves and the game. The adamantium armour on a Land Raider would probably be closer to 500mm thick and provides the protection of 1000mm of steel armour which means it's still vulnerable to some weapons (like HEAT rounds) but that's okay. The point of any tank is that it balances the requirements of protection, firepower, and mobility. The Land Raider is (or should be) better protected, carries more firepower, and travels faster than any modern tank. It need not be invulnerable, after all there are a variety of weapons that destroy them easily even in the 41st millennium.

Lasguns are equivalent to an assault rifle, that is what they're supposed to be like. I'd say they're closer to a 7.62mm Nato than the 5.56mm in terms of power. Flak armour is superior to modern body armour, not just in terms of protection but also in terms of mobility and comfort while wearing it. Of course they could also field a thousand men for every soldier on Earth, so they'd swamp us with numbers if nothing else.

Imperium of Man versus Earth. We'd lose, of course, because we can't match the firepower, mobility, armour, or sheer numbers that the IoM would bring to bear if they really decided to whack us.

This about sums it up I think.

Imperium wins because they have learned from humanities pervious mistakes. Space Marines would tactically kill us slaughtering Al-Queda in the mountains. Each time a bomb goes off the Space marines shrugg it off like nothing actually happened.

iproxtaco wrote:Nah. It's a semi-automatic grenade launcher. The Heavy Bolter is not a semi-automatic grenade launcher.

True the heavy bolter is a fully automatic grenade launcher. Which begs the question, HB V MK 19 40mm fully auto grenade launcher?

Marines can be expected to use the best tactics of any military on Earth

Except they don't even use them in the fluff. They might be clad in tank armour but real military forces are trained in hit and run ambushes and concealment, you wouldn't see US Special forces runnig up against marines, you'd see marines walking through a city, and suddenly from rooftops a few troops would lay down cover fire while another few lobbed explosive charges at them or sniped them from afar. Or better yet, you'd see space marines walking through a city and out of the blue a cruise missile just blows them to hell, guided in by a marine with a targeter hidden from view.

Not to mention that firing a missile would instantly expose the missile carrier to retaliation from space. Something that would be true of any launch platform. Even submarines would be vaporized (along with a few million tons of sea water) by a Nova Cannon or the like.

wouldn't the nova cannon blast the whole planet to smitherenes?

4 psykers and a libby or two following any IG army could win almost any battle...

now imagine an entire 10th company of codex marines (or *shudder* a couple dozen wolf scouts) were turned loose on the Earth a few months before the attack...

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nah. It's a semi-automatic grenade launcher. The Heavy Bolter is not a semi-automatic grenade launcher.

True the heavy bolter is a fully automatic grenade launcher. Which begs the question, HB V MK 19 40mm fully auto grenade launcher?

No, not true. The Heavy Bolter isn't a grenade launcher of any kind.

Marines can be expected to use the best tactics of any military on Earth

Except they don't even use them in the fluff. They might be clad in tank armour but real military forces are trained in hit and run ambushes and concealment, you wouldn't see US Special forces runnig up against marines, you'd see marines walking through a city, and suddenly from rooftops a few troops would lay down cover fire while another few lobbed explosive charges at them or sniped them from afar. Or better yet, you'd see space marines walking through a city and out of the blue a cruise missile just blows them to hell, guided in by a marine with a targeter hidden from view.

Lets watch as those rounds miss or ping of Power Armour like nothing more than small rocks. If a marine managed to somehow evade the auspex and the advanced targetting equipment of the Astartes, the Cruise missile is far from a guaranteed kill.

Not to mention that firing a missile would instantly expose the missile carrier to retaliation from space. Something that would be true of any launch platform. Even submarines would be vaporized (along with a few million tons of sea water) by a Nova Cannon or the like.

wouldn't the nova cannon blast the whole planet to smitherenes?

Nope. It might cause a planet wide cataclysm depending on where it hit. They would us Lances for pinpoint strikes.

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nah. It's a semi-automatic grenade launcher. The Heavy Bolter is not a semi-automatic grenade launcher.

True the heavy bolter is a fully automatic grenade launcher. Which begs the question, HB V MK 19 40mm fully auto grenade launcher?

Marines can be expected to use the best tactics of any military on Earth

Except they don't even use them in the fluff. They might be clad in tank armour but real military forces are trained in hit and run ambushes and concealment, you wouldn't see US Special forces runnig up against marines, you'd see marines walking through a city, and suddenly from rooftops a few troops would lay down cover fire while another few lobbed explosive charges at them or sniped them from afar. Or better yet, you'd see space marines walking through a city and out of the blue a cruise missile just blows them to hell, guided in by a marine with a targeter hidden from view.

Not to mention that firing a missile would instantly expose the missile carrier to retaliation from space. Something that would be true of any launch platform. Even submarines would be vaporized (along with a few million tons of sea water) by a Nova Cannon or the like.

wouldn't the nova cannon blast the whole planet to smitherenes?

HB.
I think that the Mk 19 might have some trouble getting through SM armor. Yes, it can go through steel, but ceramite and adamantium are much harder to punch through. A bolt can go through SM armor. And not every squad is equipped with a Mk 19, whereas every SM squad COULD be equipped with a HB.

Does a cruise missile using a targeting system held by a person need a satellite to track? If so, that point is moot because we established that the IoM would destroy/overtake/jam our satellites.

And no, the Nova Cannon will not obliterate a planet. It is powerful, yes, but not like the Chaos Planet Killer.

Nova Cannon is very powerful but is not a planet killer.

Cruise Missile don't necessarily require GPS. They can use TERCOM to basically navigate their way to the target. It's a pre-programmed topical map of the route the missile will take, it sends out signals which bounce back to make sure it isn't hitting anything.

I dont think our air superiority would win i just think it would be a temporary delay, like maybe 8 or 9 hours till the imperium got more then 1 whirlwind launcher per contenant.

iproxtaco wrote:Cruise Missile don't necessarily require GPS. They can use TERCOM to basically navigate their way to the target. It's a pre-programmed topical map of the route the missile will take, it sends out signals which bounce back to make sure it isn't hitting anything.

Ok, thanks. Did not know if they needed GPS or not.

You also have to remember that the people writing the fluff have almost know knowledge (besides other fiction) on tactics etc...on top of that they are selling the idea of demigod warriors. So of course space marines in the novels do not take cover, and just walk down roads etc. But it does not mean that if they end up in a situation where it would be prudent that they would not. Just because my tank is impervious to small arms fire does not mean that I expose myself to it needlessly.

As I said. Steel rain combined with orbital support and follow on IG elements would easily take out our command and control infrastructure and our ability to respond with force...within hours. By the end of the second day IG will be fighting their way into cities. The overwhelming show of force combined with the quick and decisive destruction of government and military leadership would result in a great deal of surrender...leaving only the most desperate and die hard to attempt to fight in an organized manner...which would eventually devolve into a guerrilla movement...and finally be stamped out by the occupying forces.
Sure its well and good that we should defend earth...blah blah blah...but in this case defeat is inevitable


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Our aircraft would just get shot of the sky by their space craft...and their air craft...and their missiles...etc

forruner_mercy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Cruise Missile don't necessarily require GPS. They can use TERCOM to basically navigate their way to the target. It's a pre-programmed topical map of the route the missile will take, it sends out signals which bounce back to make sure it isn't hitting anything.

Ok, thanks. Did not know if they needed GPS or not.

Still, any missile launch site is going to be operating on a one-shot basis. They can launch one missile before ship in orbit pick up that the missile(s) has launched, and take the sites out. Capability to fire them will be greatly reduced once any navy ships are taken out, which would be a priority for Imperial Forces. I agree that we would likely be reduced to nothing but short-range radio communications and small regional resistance within a few days at the most. This whole unified tactical defense wont happen, so there's probably not going to be many cruise missiles launched. Besides, what the hell are Astartes doing in the middle of a city? They're not going to spear-head a charge of a couple of thousand Guard into enemy territory, they're going to be at the Whitehouse, the Pentagon, the Kremlin, wherever the main command centers are, or where the main air bases and missile launch sites are, vital targets. No matter what you think, the respective nations aren't going to launch cruise missile at their most important locations.

iproxtaco wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Cruise Missile don't necessarily require GPS. They can use TERCOM to basically navigate their way to the target. It's a pre-programmed topical map of the route the missile will take, it sends out signals which bounce back to make sure it isn't hitting anything.

Ok, thanks. Did not know if they needed GPS or not.

Still, any missile launch site is going to be operating on a one-shot basis. They can launch one missile before ship in orbit pick up that the missile(s) has launched, and take the sites out. Capability to fire them will be greatly reduced once any navy ships are taken out, which would be a priority for Imperial Forces. I agree that we would likely be reduced to nothing but short-range radio communications and small regional resistance within a few days at the most. This whole unified tactical defense wont happen, so there's probably not going to be many cruise missiles launched. Besides, what the hell are Astartes doing in the middle of a city? They're not going to spear-head a charge of a couple of thousand Guard into enemy territory, they're going to be at the Whitehouse, the Pentagon, the Kremlin, wherever the main command centers are, or where the main air bases and missile launch sites are, vital targets. No matter what you think, the respective nations aren't going to launch cruise missile at their most important locations.

Even if they did launch missiles at important places, by the time they choose to it won't matter much.

Cruise missiles, even while launched would do little in terms of relevant damage to the IoM without proper leadership/command & control/infrastructure to back it up. They could take out some IG or even some SM, but at the end of the day without the Command & Control to properly coordinate these strikes then follow up with counterattacks they would mean very little in the greater scheme of things.

Orbital bombardment would destroy most major military centers, Space Marines or even Assassins would quickly decapitate global leadership, IG would grind up whatever is left. I do think we could take down a goodly number of Guardsmen before we lose though if they're not from an elite regiment. Guys from some foresaken Hive World or the like, not Cadia.

Or the DKoK. If you want some urban fighters, get them or Valhallans.