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TechMarine1 wrote:
We may as well just surrender and join the Imperium (what's the worst that can happen?). All 40k players would probably be forced into service for the Inquisition.

Would be my plan. If the Imperium ever did show up on earth to reclaim it, the first thing I would do is head to where the Imperial Forces are at and surrender. Maybe try to show off my Knowledge of Imperial Forces (while not the most knowledgeable person on the imperium, maybe enough to get a cushy job or executed on the spot[would prefer job]).

Lets watch as those rounds miss or ping of Power Armour like nothing more than small rocks. If a marine managed to somehow evade the auspex and the advanced targetting equipment of the Astartes, the Cruise missile is far from a guaranteed kill.

Weight of fire or percision stealth shots my friend. They've already shown that a lasgun is about as strong as an assault rifle, and we know lasguns can punch through weak points on a marines armor. and we know autoguns have more penetration than a lasgun (inquisitor).

But the nail in your coffin of "OMG THE MARINES ARE SO HAXORS" is we could build primitive power armor equivalents now. Know why we don't? Because they're ungainly, hard to manuver and hard to hide. Seriously, go into any building and imagine how a space marine would manuver in there, they're at least 8 feet tall and several feed wide with the armor. In a stand up fight one SM might be able to take on a squad of special forces, but the special forces aren't going to go into a stand up fight if they can avoid it, and for every SM there's probably 100 special forces. I mean we're talking what, one maybe two marine chapters showing up max for a planetary reconquest that's 2000 marines max. Face it the only way the imperium wins is with the big space ships. And if your going to use the big space ships (or even the small ones), Then you don't really need ground forces at all.

I don't want to read all posts now, but I'll say a few things.

Our Terra is Holy Terra.

We are their past. Exterminating us would probably create some sort of time paradox and screw everything up.

I don't know if the big E was alive back now, but if he was, he wouldn't let it happpen.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Lets watch as those rounds miss or ping of Power Armour like nothing more than small rocks. If a marine managed to somehow evade the auspex and the advanced targetting equipment of the Astartes, the Cruise missile is far from a guaranteed kill.

Weight of fire or percision stealth shots my friend. They've already shown that a lasgun is about as strong as an assault rifle, and we know lasguns can punch through weak points on a marines armor. and we know autoguns have more penetration than a lasgun (inquisitor).

Oh yay, lots of concentrated pebble fire! You've used the game-stats of a supplement, so no, you haven't proved anything to us.

But the nail in your coffin of "OMG THE MARINES ARE SO HAXORS" is we could build primitive power armor equivalents now.

No we couldn't. No nation on earth is even close to creating anything like Power Armour.

Know why we don't?

Because we can't.

Because they're ungainly, hard to manuver and hard to hide. Seriously, go into any building and imagine how a space marine would manuver in there, they're at least 8 feet tall and several feed wide with the armor.

Oh, you think you have a reason. Well, any sort of fluff on Space Marines can throw you're ungainly and hard to maneuver misconceptions out the window. Marines are very maneuverable. If they have reflexes that are increased due to their armour, in the Deathwatch book by the way, are around 7 feet tall, and whilst they have bulk, your average corridor isn't built only to accommodate people below 5 foot 5. They could easily walk through the corridors of my school, and my FLGS with some head-room. Walls? Meet muscle-fiber enhanced ceramite fist. Stairs? I've never seen a Space Marine walk up a set of wooden-rickety stairs. Reason? Why the hell would they be walking up wooden stairs, any important building will have solid steal or concrete steps. I think we can throw anything to do with stealth out of the window as well. They aren't stealth fighters.

In a stand up fight one SM might be able to take on a squad of special forces, but the special forces aren't going to go into a stand up fight if they can avoid it

Neither will the Space Marine, when he's on his own, which is unlikely given the circumstances. The ratio of Astartes:Mortal increases as the number of Astartes increases. 1 will take 10, but 2 will take 25, and so on. By the time you get to 30 Astartes working together in a combat zone, well, you get the picture.

and for every SM there's probably 100 special forces. I mean we're talking what, one maybe two marine chapters showing up max for a planetary reconquest that's 2000 marines max

The conditions will never be favorable for the Special Forces. Even if they can somehow mobilize to every critical area on the planet within a few hours of hostilities commencing, the Space Marines will always drop right on top of them. Good luck facing an enraged Space Marine with a chainsword after he's just dropped from orbit right through the building you were standing in.

Face it the only way the imperium wins is with the big space ships. And if your going to use the big space ships (or even the small ones), Then you don't really need ground forces at all.

Ground forces are able to keep the infrastructure of a planet largely intact, hence why they're used. And Titans, Super Heavies, and psykers.

Belexar wrote:I don't want to read all posts now, but I'll say a few things.

Our Terra is Holy Terra.

We are their past. Exterminating us would probably create some sort of time paradox and screw everything up.

I don't know if the big E was alive back now, but if he was, he wouldn't let it happpen.

IIRC he was at least alive in the Middle Ages, so yeah, he's alive now.

Good. So yeah, here's the deal:

Imperium forces enter orbit. The big E sends them a telephatic message to GTFO. They do. End of story.

Belexar wrote:Good. So yeah, here's the deal:

Imperium forces enter orbit. The big E sends them a telephatic message to GTFO. They do. End of story.

Wouldn't they first gak their pants, and scream like giddy school girls when they realized the emperor spoke to them?

The conditions will never be favorable for the Special Forces. Even if they can somehow mobilize to every critical area on the planet within a few hours of hostilities commencing, the Space Marines will always drop right on top of them. Good luck facing an enraged Space Marine with a chainsword after he's just dropped from orbit right through the building you were standing in.

So your saying that hand to hand combat is a good tactic to use?

gendoikari87 wrote:Weight of fire or percision stealth shots my friend. They've already shown that a lasgun is about as strong as an assault rifle, and we know lasguns can punch through weak points on a marines armor. and we know autoguns have more penetration than a lasgun (inquisitor).

Where is it shown that a lasgun is as strong as an assault rifle? Also, your fluff is outdated. In Dark Heresy, as I said, autoguns are exactly equivelant to lasguns in both damage dealing and penetration. And once more, autoguns=/=modern assault rifles. Just because they are similarly operated does not make them equivelants.

Also, Space Marines, as shown in the Chaos Marines codex, can take a bolt round to the face from point-blank range, and just be dazed. They also are shown in said book to take bolter fire to the chest and just get mad. This is also in Eisenhorn.

But the nail in your coffin of "OMG THE MARINES ARE SO HAXORS" is we could build primitive power armor equivalents now.

Primitive as in vastly and drastically inferior.

Know why we don't? Because they're ungainly, hard to manuver and hard to hide. Seriously, go into any building and imagine how a space marine would manuver in there, they're at least 8 feet tall and several feed wide with the armor.

A Space Marine in power armour is just as nimble inside of it as he is outside of it. I would imagine he'd maneuver inside of the building by going through the walls, these are beings who can punch through ceramite and steels with their fists.. If he really needed to I mean. Most buildings can accomodate a squad or Marines.

Also, I am just saying, the moment a Space Marine has a bullet ping off his armour, his in-built sensors will go off and tell him where it came from. And after that happens, I wouldn't want to be the rifleman who shot him. Since depending on his equipment he can use a jump pack to blow through whatever structure (Assuming a position of high altitude) the rifleman was hiding in, or just plow through it (And keep in mind Marines do in fact use cover if they need to).

Hell, in Fallen Angels, we see an ambush by human Imperial Army men. Their lasguns could barely stop the rampaging Marines, any damage to the armour is swiftly repaired, what actually gets to the Marine is easily shrugged off.

In a stand up fight one SM might be able to take on a squad of special forces, but the special forces aren't going to go into a stand up fight if they can avoid it, and for every SM there's probably 100 special forces. I mean we're talking what, one maybe two marine chapters showing up max for a planetary reconquest that's 2000 marines max.

See here is the thing, the moment a bullet pings off the Marine's armour, the Marine knows exactly where it came from due to on-board armour sensors. Also, Marines don't usually go into a stand-up fight. They attack vital areas of the army, and crush it in one sweep.

Face it the only way the imperium wins is with the big space ships. And if your going to use the big space ships (or even the small ones), Then you don't really need ground forces at all.

I find it funny that you deprive Marines of air-support while giving the modern military it. Realistically, any modern army would have no air support at all, not without a unified command structure and with the Imperium dominating the planet's skies.

Well, I haven't heard of the Imperium ever putting out something that can crank out 1,000,000 RPM

King Pariah wrote:Well, I haven't heard of the Imperium ever putting out something that can crank out 1,000,000 RPM

Metalstorm?

gendoikari87 wrote:

Belexar wrote:Good. So yeah, here's the deal:

Imperium forces enter orbit. The big E sends them a telephatic message to GTFO. They do. End of story.

Wouldn't they first gak their pants, and scream like giddy school girls when they realized the emperor spoke to them?

The conditions will never be favorable for the Special Forces. Even if they can somehow mobilize to every critical area on the planet within a few hours of hostilities commencing, the Space Marines will always drop right on top of them. Good luck facing an enraged Space Marine with a chainsword after he's just dropped from orbit right through the building you were standing in.

So your saying that hand to hand combat is a good tactic to use?

Yes, because ceramite armor is equivalent to titanium, if not stronger.(C:SM, BRB) It is the strongest material known to man. We have absolutely no weapons which can do any damage to it. Nothing we can throw at it will even scratch the paintwork. Sources (C:SM, C:BA, C: DA, C:BT, BRB) mention that they are faster, more intelligent, and a lot stronger than a normal human. A SM has an implant called the black carapace, which interacts with his power armor, and efficiently turning it into a second skin. It is not a clumsy and heavy contraption, it boosts his movement, and he moves in it as easily as if he was naked.(C:SM,C:BT,C:BA,C:BT,C: DA,BRB)

They have mono-molecular blades (the edge is one molecule thick) which can cut through tank armor like butter. (C:SM, BRB) It is a pretty good tactic considering that if anyone survives a drop-pod crashing to his head, he will get killed in a second. Modern armies have little training in CC, and are not equipped to engage in it. And certainly not against 8ft tall superhumans who only get irritated when you are shooting them with our inferior weapons and grenades. They have bayonettes or knives at most. Besides, they would run in terror when they saw an enraged superhuman cleaving their friends in half. Space Marines would not have that problem. They have been given hypnotherapy, so they cannot know fear. (C:SM, BRB, all the other codices.)


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gendoikari87 wrote:

Lets watch as those rounds miss or ping of Power Armour like nothing more than small rocks. If a marine managed to somehow evade the auspex and the advanced targetting equipment of the Astartes, the Cruise missile is far from a guaranteed kill.

Weight of fire or percision stealth shots my friend. They've already shown that a lasgun is about as strong as an assault rifle, and we know lasguns can punch through weak points on a marines armor. and we know autoguns have more penetration than a lasgun (inquisitor).
And you expect the marines to just stand still and let the others snipe them? Their bolters shoot .75 miniature rockets on rapid fire. The moment someone would take a shot, the sky would be thick from bolter fire. (which can destroy buildings) Besides, they would not just roam around the streets. They would drop-pod right over their targets and make precision strikes. For this reason, our SpecOps are hardly seen on the front line, eh?

But the nail in your coffin of "OMG THE MARINES ARE SO HAXORS" is we could build primitive power armor equivalents now.
You pretty much made your own point invalid. Notice the word, Primitive.

Know why we don't?
Because our technology is primitive, remember?

Because they're ungainly, hard to manuver and hard to hide. Seriously, go into any building and imagine how a space marine would manuver in there, they're at least 8 feet tall and several feed wide with the armor.
Yes, because we don't have the technology which the IoM has, hence our versions would be crude contraptions and inferior in every way compared to the armor of the SM. It has been developed and improved for millenia.

In a stand up fight one SM might be able to take on a squad of special forces, but the special forces aren't going to go into a stand up fight if they can avoid it, and for every SM there's probably 100 special forces. I mean we're talking what, one maybe two marine chapters showing up max for a planetary reconquest that's 2000 marines max. Face it the only way the imperium wins is with the big space ships. And if your going to use the big space ships (or even the small ones), Then you don't really need ground forces at all.

You have completely ignored the Imperial Guard. Space Marines are not their front line troopers. They are not even called to assist if the Guard can handle things. Marines don't go into a stand-up fight either, they are drop-podded into special areas of value, where they proceed to destroy priority targets, and then leave. Now, about the Imperial Guard.

They use superior numbers in order to take down an opponent. Their tactics are usually a combination of 1700's fusillier tactics and WWII tacts. They have such massive numbers, that they outnumber any army by millions. Earth can't stand a war of attrition, especially not when it is under siege from all sides by millions of troopers and tanks. History has showed that nations like the Mongols, Soviet Union and Persians have won almost always because the enemy could not match their numbers. Imagine the look on the enemy's face when he saw hundreds of thousands of fanatical troopers charging them with tanks the size of buildings, so many aircraft that they darken the sky and artillery which can destroy platoons of infantry in one shot. Sure, they would suffer grievous losses, like always. But in the end they would just drown the enemy under their wave. Not to mention all the special and heavy weapons they pack. IoM has endless resources.

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
The conditions will never be favorable for the Special Forces. Even if they can somehow mobilize to every critical area on the planet within a few hours of hostilities commencing, the Space Marines will always drop right on top of them. Good luck facing an enraged Space Marine with a chainsword after he's just dropped from orbit right through the building you were standing in.

So your saying that hand to hand combat is a good tactic to use?

For a squad of Astartes its no better a tactic than partaking in a long-range firefight. Bolters, whilst deadly accurate in the hands of Tactical Marine, aren't designed for long-range battles. They used for short ranged battles, it's why Astartes are always seen advancing towards the enemy, or dropped close to them. All the marines have are what the took with them on the ground. When against the Imperium, in which they have absolute orbital superiority, there is no tactical coordination, no crusie missiles, no air-support. At best, the marines are going to have an Abrams or two, maybe and Anti-Materiel rifle. Both of those could potentially kill an Astartes with a direct hit on a vulnerable body-part. The Abrams is for all intents and purposes, an Autocannon using the appropriate shell. Power Armour has been known to protect against such fire, but an Autocannon is still principally used on armoured targets. An Abrams using anti-tank shells would likely damage Power Armour if not incapacitate the Astartes if it hits in the right area ie. on the joint's or stomach, but its till a very small target to hit with a tank cannon. A McMillan is the ideal weapon to use against Astartes. Precise, extremely long ranged, and powerful, a hit to a joint may not penetrate first time, but it would certainly crack the armour, and penetrate on a second hit. It probably wouldn't kill outright, Asartes physiology is still able to allow him to carry on with injuries that would outright kill several mortals.

For a squad of Astartes its no better a tactic than partaking in a long-range firefight.

Power Armour has been known to protect against such fire, but an Autocannon is still principally used on armoured targets.

okay now i see your just an unreasonable fanboy who wants to think marines are unkillable monstrosities. Get this through your head, a 120mm cannon is not an autocannon, in fact it will defeat a land raiders armor. Unless you have another source of the armor equivalent of a land raider.

It is not a clumsy and heavy contraption, it boosts his movement, and he moves in it as easily as if he was naked.(C:SM,C:BT,C:BA,C:BT,C: DA,BRB)

yes I know this already, they're fast, does not mean they are agile. Hell in space marine they can't even jump, they're stopped by a tall pipe. They have less areas they can manuver in and still stick out like a sore thumb, you guys crack me up, you really have no idea about real warfare do you?


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tell me this if the marines are so vastly superior, how is it that imperial guard regiments have beaten them before.

gendoikari87 wrote:

For a squad of Astartes its no better a tactic than partaking in a long-range firefight.

And you accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about? I take it you just ignored the reasons as to why that is.

Power Armour has been known to protect against such fire, but an Autocannon is still principally used on armoured targets.

okay now i see your just an unreasonable fanboy who wants to think marines are unkillable monstrosities. Get this through your head, a 120mm cannon is not an autocannon, in fact it will defeat a land raiders armor. Unless you have another source of the armor equivalent of a land raider.

Or maybe I just read the fluff we're talking about. An Autocannon is based off of tank cannons used in the mid-80s. Guess what? The M1 Abrams main gun is such a weapon. It's a rapid-fire tank cannon, and Power Armour is able to protect against it. Still, the Abrams CAN still take out an Astartes.
No, it won't. One unreliable source that contradicts what actually happens the fluff does not make you right. Land Raiders have been known to absorb the fire of things like Hunter Missiles, Lascannons, Guass weaponry, things like that make an Autocannon look like a pee-shooter. A Land Raider is armoured with stronger material than anything we have on earth, ceramite conducts nearly no heat whatsoever. If Astartes and Land Raiders were armoured like paper, like you seem to think, they wouldn't even survive their first battle, but they do, and live for hundreds of years because they can't be killed by some random hit by a tank.
Oh, and Terminators, deal with that.

It is not a clumsy and heavy contraption, it boosts his movement, and he moves in it as easily as if he was naked.(C:SM,C:BT,C:BA,C:BT,C: DA,BRB)

yes I know this already, they're fast, does not mean they are agile. Hell in space marine they can't even jump, they're stopped by a tall pipe. They have less areas they can manuver in and still stick out like a sore thumb, you guys crack me up, you really have no idea about real warfare do you?

Fairly agile. If an Astartes can hang from the ceiling of a room undetected by a person standing right beneath, and then slowly lower himself down with one arm, still undetected, then we can say they retain a good deal of their agility.

tell me this if the marines are so vastly superior, how is it that imperial guard regiments have beaten them before.

Numbers, and the fact that they have vastly superior fire-power to any force we have on Earth. But you tell me, what's your source for this event. And give the details, like the numbers of Astartes, tanks, Guard, what weapons, the environment etc.

Dude I was just flipping through one of the old compendiums and spock shows up as a sanctioned psyker.


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One unreliable source that contradicts what actually happens the fluff does not make you right.

and I will end this by saying the same thing about everything you've posted. at least I gave my source, Imperial armour volume II

also the only place that says they're the same as 20th century tank guns, which is a large umbrella which encompasses 25mm cannons which is what they are, also has Space marines listed as Toughness 3. You sir are using antiquaited data.


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In fact your source says nothing about them being equal to 20th century tank guns, but ONLY them using a CONCEPT similar to them.... which is fairly accurate.

gendoikari87 wrote:Dude I was just flipping through one of the old compendiums and spock shows up as a sanctioned psyker.


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One unreliable source that contradicts what actually happens the fluff does not make you right.

and I will end this by saying the same thing about everything you've posted. at least I gave my source, Imperial armour volume II

also the only place that says they're the same as 20th century tank guns, which is a large umbrella which encompasses 25mm cannons which is what they are, also has Space marines listed as Toughness 3. You sir are using antiquaited data.

Which is game-stats and therefore exempt from the background discussion. The fluff stands.

gendoikari87 wrote:

For a squad of Astartes its no better a tactic than partaking in a long-range firefight.

They are tactical marines. If you knew the fluff, you would know that they have been trained for hundreds of years in the art of close combat and ranged warfare alike.

Power Armour has been known to protect against such fire, but an Autocannon is still principally used on armoured targets.

okay now i see your just an unreasonable fanboy who wants to think marines are unkillable monstrosities. Get this through your head, a 120mm cannon is not an autocannon, in fact it will defeat a land raiders armor. Unless you have another source of the armor equivalent of a land raider.

Basically the fluff says that they are unkillable monsters enhanced with implants that make them night invulnerable. I am beginning to wonder if you know any decent fluff at all, besides your beloved Inquisitor?

It is not a clumsy and heavy contraption, it boosts his movement, and he moves in it as easily as if he was naked.(C:SM,C:BT,C:BA,C:BT,C: DA,BRB)

yes I know this already, they're fast, does not mean they are agile. Hell in space marine they can't even jump, they're stopped by a tall pipe. They have less areas they can manuver in and still stick out like a sore thumb, you guys crack me up, you really have no idea about real warfare do you?

Space Marine was written before the background was even completed. Information in that book is outdated and not a real source anymore. You don't see our troopers hopping around the field of battle, do you? They don't need to manouver and duck, their armor stops all possible attacks. Besides, inside buildings they just bash through walls. Have you ever heard of Space Hulk? That's cramped corridors for you. Again, they are not using the same tactics as we are, invalid point.

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tell me this if the marines are so vastly superior, how is it that imperial guard regiments have beaten them before.

Because, as I have already said, they have so many troopers that they swarm around them and overwhelm them with sheer numbers.

You used a videogame as a source? Really?

Game mechanics have nothing to do with the fluff, because, guess what? It's a game!

As for weaponry, I'll concede that assault rifles and lasguns are on par for power, but thats it. Lasguns are more accurate and are more efficient.

Your tank arguments are also useless, because we don't know the properties of adamantium. It might as well provide triple the amount of protection of anything we know. All speculation at best.

You say CC isn't a good tactic. The problem you have here is; it's not a good tactic for US, our training nor gear, or even natural aptitude leans towards this type of combat. The force we are facing (SM in this case) are fully trained and geared for this purpose alone. All of their tactics and deployment methods are made to get stuck in from the word go.
Assault marines wil absolutely dominate urban enviroments. By either hopping around town, gunning and cutting down any possible threat or smashing through the buildings themselves, while their speed and maneuvrability will keep them protected from any incoming fire, which still has to deal with tank armor if it does connect.

Also, have fun when a vehicle with a flamestorm cannon rolls into town.

As for detection, the IOM uses scanners and sensors vastly superior to ours, almost any major move will be seen by auspexes on the ground.

As for weaponry, I'll concede that assault rifles and lasguns are on par for power, but thats it. Lasguns are more accurate and are more efficient.

you forgot the #1 reason the imperium uses them over autoguns, resupply, you can't have a lot of supply trains going after IG armies to resupply them, so they use a lot of las weaponry.

Game mechanics have nothing to do with the fluff, because, guess what? It's a game!

and the fluff comes from where?

Your tank arguments are also useless, because we don't know the properties of adamantium. It might as well provide triple the amount of protection of anything we know. All speculation at best.

Imperial armour, 98mm thick, provides equivalent to 300mm conventional steel

You say CC isn't a good tactic. The problem you have here is; it's not a good tactic for US, our training nor gear, or even natural aptitude leans towards this type of combat.

Because we have evolved technologically, the reason big heavy armors aren't worth while is that you need mobility, and even if you are just as fast, you can't get into the small spaces you could before. you are harder to hide, and even marine armor has weak points, and heck the eyes can be take out, after that they have to take thieir helmet off, and BAM one headshot and they're gone. There was a reason we abandoned the big thick armor for military applications, after a certain point it becomes negatively effective in terms of battle potential, and then we have IFV's to protect us until we get to the battle. So individual armor has been thrown away outside of basic kevlar and in some armies cases, ceramic inserts. (I don't think any army has or should adpted dragon skin yet, but in fair weather it's basically carapace armour).

while their speed and maneuvrability will keep them protected from any incoming fire

Jetpacks too were abandoned because it became increasingly clear that when you don one, unless your going jet speeds, you are just providing a good target for your enemy.

which still has to deal with tank armor if it does connect.

If the 2" of armor holds true for marines and the ratio for adamantium to CS holds then the marines have an equivalent to 150mm conventional steel armor, which is about 6 inches, which while yes, can be considered 60's and 70's level tank armor is easily defeated by some small arms weapons we have to day such as the 12ga Shaped charge developed for the AA12.

Because, as I have already said, they have so many troopers that they swarm around them and overwhelm them with sheer numbers.

true but man for man we're still the superior force against guard.

As for detection, the IOM uses scanners and sensors vastly superior to ours, almost any major move will be seen by auspexes on the ground.

MLRS sensor fused warheads, nicknamed the square kilometer denial service, because it's intellegent submunitions can bust tanks apart, no GPS guidance needed, and basically anything in 1 square kilometer is gone, including tanks. So pretty much the whole marine and guard arguments are invalid.


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go to about 3:30 and this is the early version, the one in the field now is 10x more powerful.


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also the german 88mm flack gun that was mentioned.

Pak 43 (abbreviation of Panzerabwehrkanone 43) used a new cruciform mount with the gun much closer to the ground, making it far easier to hide and harder to hit. It was also provided with a much stronger and more angled armour shield to provide better protection. All versions were able to penetrate about 200 mm of armour at 1,000 m, allowing it to defeat the armor of any contemporary tank.

even if this WAS what the autocannon was, 200mm of penetration is about 1/3 of the abrams sabot, and the heat round even more.

gendoikari87 wrote:

As for weaponry, I'll concede that assault rifles and lasguns are on par for power, but thats it. Lasguns are more accurate and are more efficient.

you forgot the #1 reason the imperium uses them over autoguns, resupply, you can't have a lot of supply trains going after IG armies to resupply them, so they use a lot of las weaponry.

Game mechanics have nothing to do with the fluff, because, guess what? It's a game!

and the fluff comes from where?

The books, and backgound information. That's why it's called fluff, and not game mechanics.

Your tank arguments are also useless, because we don't know the properties of adamantium. It might as well provide triple the amount of protection of anything we know. All speculation at best.

Imperial armour, 98mm thick, provides equivalent to 300mm conventional steel.

Fair enough, though I still think the stats in Imperial Armour are completely moronic.

You say CC isn't a good tactic. The problem you have here is; it's not a good tactic for US, our training nor gear, or even natural aptitude leans towards this type of combat.

Because we have evolved technologically, the reason big heavy armors aren't worth while is that you need mobility, and even if you are just as fast, you can't get into the small spaces you could before. you are harder to hide, and even marine armor has weak points, and heck the eyes can be take out, after that they have to take thieir helmet off, and BAM one headshot and they're gone. There was a reason we abandoned the big thick armor for military applications, after a certain point it becomes negatively effective in terms of battle potential, and then we have IFV's to protect us until we get to the battle. So individual armor has been thrown away outside of basic kevlar and in some armies cases, ceramic inserts. (I don't think any army has or should adpted dragon skin yet, but in fair weather it's basically carapace armour).

Well, you still can get into any "small spaces" cause wars on earth aren't being fought in pipes the last time I checked. Also, due to the increased strenght and reflexes, you can argue that they are actually more mobile. As for taking out the eyes, good luck with that. Your not gonna hit a 2 inch surface on a big moving target with any reliabilty to make this a viable strategy. And even if they took their helmets of, a SM's reinforced skull can take a direct hit from regular small arms without any fatal damage.

And yes there was a reason we abandoned our big thick armor, it wasn't actually that thick, and it wasn't powered. The negeative effects you have summed up are all countered by the fact that we are talking about power armor here.

while their speed and maneuvrability will keep them protected from any incoming fire

Jetpacks too were abandoned because it became increasingly clear that when you don one, unless your going jet speeds, you are just providing a good target for your enemy.

Once again, difference in Technology levels, you can't compare those crapfest jetpacks we've managed to make to an Assault marines pack, they work, ours don't because a human body can't even deal with the physical stress it would put on you.

which still has to deal with tank armor if it does connect.

If the 2" of armor holds true for marines and the ratio for adamantium to CS holds then the marines have an equivalent to 150mm conventional steel armor, which is about 6 inches, which while yes, can be considered 60's and 70's level tank armor is easily defeated by some small arms weapons we have to day such as the 12ga Shaped charge developed for the AA12.

Which hasn't seen any major deployment or distribution among armed forces to be considered a giant risk, and it's range isn't all that great to begin with. 12ga rounds also don't have much in the way of muzzle velocity to be able to accurately take down a fast enemy moving in any direction he damn well pleases.

Because, as I have already said, they have so many troopers that they swarm around them and overwhelm them with sheer numbers.

true but man for man we're still the superior force against guard.

As for detection, the IOM uses scanners and sensors vastly superior to ours, almost any major move will be seen by auspexes on the ground.

MLRS sensor fused warheads, nicknamed the square kilometer denial service, because it's intellegent submunitions can bust tanks apart, no GPS guidance needed, and basically anything in 1 square kilometer is gone, including tanks. So pretty much the whole marine and guard arguments are invalid.

Apart from the fact these target vehicles only, and require an air force to be delivered. Also, it finds targets by patern matching, good luck with that on previously un-encountered targets.

oh and the M430A1 munition for the M240 grenade launcher is fully capable of piercing that.

No it's not, they have a penetration of 50mm.

The books, and backgound information. That's why it's called fluff, and not game mechanics.

and where is the most reliable information, in the background section of the rulebook.

Well, you still can get into any "small spaces" cause wars on earth aren't being fought in pipes the last time I checked. Also, due to the increased strenght and reflexes, you can argue that they are actually more mobile.

more mobile, POSSIBLY, but then again, the X-15 was "more Mobile" than the X-29, but the X-29 was more manuverable. Point being speed matters for nought when you are having to squeeze into your environment, which is something you can do much easier without said armor.

Your not gonna hit a 2 inch surface on a big moving target with any reliabilty to make this a viable strategy. And even if they took their helmets of, a SM's reinforced skull can take a direct hit from regular small arms without any fatal damage.

Source, type of armament used? Lasguns don't count as they don't have the penetration of assault rifles, at least not M14's which are actually being pulled out of being mothballed.

And yes there was a reason we abandoned our big thick armor, it wasn't actually that thick, and it wasn't powered. The negeative effects you have summed up are all countered by the fact that we are talking about power armor here.

Your right about that, it's called a V8 engine. and the guys inside can get out and hide and actually maneuver.

Once again, difference in Technology levels, you can't compare those crapfest jetpacks we've managed to make to an Assault marines pack, they work, ours don't because a human body can't even deal with the physical stress it would put on you.

They weren't abandoned because the ones we HAD were crap, they were abandoned because the ones we could ever possibly HOPE to make were going to be useless. It was an analysis of future prospects, much like the gyrojet which was abandoned because of inherent flaws in the core design. Granted the marines Magic or electronically guided bolts and pre-charge almost make up for that, and given marines size, they actually make a good weapon. but only with the guidance system, and only with 8 foot tall genetically engineered superhumans.

Which hasn't seen any major deployment or distribution among armed forces to be considered a giant risk, and it's range isn't all that great to begin with. 12ga rounds also don't have much in the way of muzzle velocity to be able to accurately take down a fast enemy moving in any direction he damn well pleases.

No they haven't seen adoption because we aren't fighting 8 foot tall humans with 2 inches of armor. and Slow? do you know what you're talking about? 800-900FPS is not slow.

Apart from the fact these target vehicles only, and require an air force to be delivered. Also, it finds targets by patern matching, good luck with that on previously un-encountered targets.

No they target humans too, and any vehicle like object. that's why they call it the square kilometer denial service, it strips a square kilometer of pretty much all human activity, possibly of all animal activity.




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Soladrin wrote:No it's not, they have a penetration of 50mm.

your thinking the XM25 round, it's got a penetration of 50mm. I'm talking the 40mm HEAT round, the HEDP might have a slightly lower penetration though, but still useful.


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As for taking out the eyes, good luck with that.

Shotguns.....

Yea, 50 is the HEDP.

Also, Lasguns have great penetration, a bullet can be deflected.

Source? Numerous IG novels, we have lasguns going through concrete like butter.

Soladrin wrote:Yea, 50 is the HEDP.

Also, Lasguns have great penetration, a bullet can be deflected.

Source? Numerous IG novels, we have lasguns going through concrete like butter.

Then we have extremely conflicting sources because most of the rulebooks backgrounds shows they are less penetrative, but easier to manufacture. Not to mention in rouge trader and Inquisitor lasguns have no penetrative qualities where as even basic primitive black powder have some. at least until you get to the cool las weapons like the sollex death light, and hell pistols.

This mistake comes up a lot:

Rules =/= fluff, rules should never be interpreted as fluff. Stats need to be balanced.

gendoikari87 wrote:

The books, and backgound information. That's why it's called fluff, and not game mechanics.

and where is the most reliable information, in the background section of the rulebook.

Yeah, the background section. The rules and fluff are separate from each other.

Well, you still can get into any "small spaces" cause wars on earth aren't being fought in pipes the last time I checked. Also, due to the increased strenght and reflexes, you can argue that they are actually more mobile.

more mobile, POSSIBLY, but then again, the X-15 was "more Mobile" than the X-29, but the X-29 was more manuverable. Point being speed matters for nought when you are having to squeeze into your environment, which is something you can do much easier without said armor.

Depends on the environment.

Your not gonna hit a 2 inch surface on a big moving target with any reliabilty to make this a viable strategy. And even if they took their helmets of, a SM's reinforced skull can take a direct hit from regular small arms without any fatal damage.

Source, type of armament used? Lasguns don't count as they don't have the penetration of assault rifles, at least not M14's which are actually being pulled out of being mothballed.

I know Talos in Blood Reaver took a bunch of bolt rounds to the head and survived his helmet being almost destroyed by it.
You're using the game-stats again, point is negligible.

And yes there was a reason we abandoned our big thick armor, it wasn't actually that thick, and it wasn't powered. The negeative effects you have summed up are all countered by the fact that we are talking about power armor here.

Your right about that, it's called a V8 engine. and the guys inside can get out and hide and actually maneuver.

But the point there being that they have to leave their armoured shell to do it, Astartes don't. Well, they can't hide, but they can maneuver as much with the same protection.

Once again, difference in Technology levels, you can't compare those crapfest jetpacks we've managed to make to an Assault marines pack, they work, ours don't because a human body can't even deal with the physical stress it would put on you.

They weren't abandoned because the ones we HAD were crap, they were abandoned because the ones we could ever possibly HOPE to make were going to be useless. It was an analysis of future prospects, much like the gyrojet which was abandoned because of inherent flaws in the core design. Granted the marines Magic or electronically guided bolts and pre-charge almost make up for that, and given marines size, they actually make a good weapon. but only with the guidance system, and only with 8 foot tall genetically engineered superhumans.

Then the point is moot, since we are talking about supersoldiers here. It works for them. If you want an example, read First Heretic, they use Jump Packs very effectively when purging a city of huge glass constructs.

Which hasn't seen any major deployment or distribution among armed forces to be considered a giant risk, and it's range isn't all that great to begin with. 12ga rounds also don't have much in the way of muzzle velocity to be able to accurately take down a fast enemy moving in any direction he damn well pleases.

No they haven't seen adoption because we aren't fighting 8 foot tall humans with 2 inches of armor. and Slow? do you know what you're talking about? 800-900FPS is not slow.

Relatively, it's slow.

Apart from the fact these target vehicles only, and require an air force to be delivered. Also, it finds targets by patern matching, good luck with that on previously un-encountered targets.

No they target humans too, and any vehicle like object. that's why they call it the square kilometer denial service, it strips a square kilometer of pretty much all human activity, possibly of all animal activity.

Do you still need an airforce or launch site to deliver them? If so, you aren't going to see a whole lot of them.

As for taking out the eyes, good luck with that.

Shotguns.....

Lol? If you're that close you might as well give up.

Soladrin wrote:This mistake comes up a lot:

Rules =/= fluff, rules should never be interpreted as fluff. Stats need to be balanced.

Fluff comes from the rules, remember where the fluff comes from, the games. If a las gun has better penetration they aren't going to make it worse, and then turn around in their description and say it's better. So balance comes from cost, the rules then create fluff. Because otherwise there is no connect between rules and fluff, which is what they try to do.


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I know Talos in Blood Reaver took a bunch of bolt rounds to the head and survived his helmet being almost destroyed by it.
You're using the game-stats again, point is negligible.

and yet in the Space marine movie shots to the gut both penetrated and killed. The point is not negligible because the rules are the core of where the fluff comes from, writers who go off track are not generally reliable, or do you think that ultramarines carry around multi-lasers. because that's in the black library.

also was talos a psyker, that could explain a lot.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Soladrin wrote:This mistake comes up a lot:

Rules =/= fluff, rules should never be interpreted as fluff. Stats need to be balanced.

Fluff comes from the rules, remember where the fluff comes from, the games. If a las gun has better penetration they aren't going to make it worse, and then turn around in their description and say it's better. So balance comes from cost, the rules then create fluff. Because otherwise there is no connect between rules and fluff, which is what they try to do.

Wrong, the fluff isn't based on the rules, nor vice versa, the fluff is purely there to flesh things out, this is why so many things GW puts out contradict themselves.

Wrong, the fluff isn't based on the rules, nor vice versa, the fluff is purely there to flesh things out, this is why so many things GW puts out contradict themselves.

So throwing a rock at a wave serpent will make it blow up? Farseers surf to war atop eldar grav tanks and marines carry around multi-lasers?