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Le sigh...

Soladrin wrote:Le sigh...

Hey, that's what your saying. the truth is the novels are not a good source at all.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Le sigh...

Hey, that's what your saying. the truth is the novels are not a good source at all.

Thank you for acknowledging our victory.

Soladrin wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Le sigh...

Hey, that's what your saying. the truth is the novels are not a good source at all.

Thank you for acknowledging our victory.

your logic makes no sense but if that's what you want to believe, then by all means, continue in your own deception.

Your grabbing at straws, this discussion is over.

Has anyone seen independence day? The US would totally win.
But in reality I would be the first one to surrender as soon as thiere ships landed.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Soladrin wrote:This mistake comes up a lot:

Rules =/= fluff, rules should never be interpreted as fluff. Stats need to be balanced.

Fluff comes from the rules, remember where the fluff comes from, the games. If a las gun has better penetration they aren't going to make it worse, and then turn around in their description and say it's better. So balance comes from cost, the rules then create fluff. Because otherwise there is no connect between rules and fluff, which is what they try to do.

You're in denial. The Game-rules are changed to make it balanced, or as what the author thinks is balanced. They aren't related.

I know Talos in Blood Reaver took a bunch of bolt rounds to the head and survived his helmet being almost destroyed by it.
You're using the game-stats again, point is negligible.

and yet in the Space marine movie shots to the gut both penetrated and killed. The point is not negligible because the rules are the core of where the fluff comes from, writers who go off track are not generally reliable, or do you think that ultramarines carry around multi-lasers. because that's in the black library.

also was talos a psyker, that could explain a lot.

I dunno about Ultramarines carrying round multi-lasers, since it was the Blood Ravens, but you know go on. Use two universally panned sources that the community at large generally thinks should be exempt from any discussion thanks to a little bit of Land Raiders transforming into Razorbacks, and back flipping Terminators. Nearly every other source has Power Armour taking a lot more than two hits. The Horus Heresy series, Blood Reaver, Soul Hunter, the Ultramarines series, they all have pretty much the same consensus, that Power Armour isn't make of wicker.
Also, Talos could only see the future. Xarl went through the same punishment.

So what makes C.S. Goto so much more unreliable as a source than all the others in the black library?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

You're in denial. The Game-rules are changed to make it balanced, or as what the author thinks is balanced. They aren't related.

By this reasoning guardsmen could be more skilled than marines, or bigger, and stronger.

From my friend (this is copied from a message on facebook) - The U.S was beaten by a bunch of illiterate rice farmers in 1965-75. The Imperium has better equipment, better training and MUCH more manpower. No one has said the autocannon is a 120mm more likely a 60-70mm. To make thing fair, let's remove both navies. That means the vast majority of you're cruise missiles will disappear and our orbital firepower goes. Despite this, the IoM would still have the edge in firepower, equipment (if you dispute this, try and argue with plasma, melta, laser and vortex technology), maneouvrability and manpower. Then we have your sources: Imperial armour (everyone agrees is unreliable), you're knowledge of American weaponry which has most likely been affected by propaganda, and inquisitor which is a game. See a problem there?

Exterminatus... OR THEY COULD SIT BACK AND WATCH US KILL OUR SELVES IN OUR OWN WARS, PLAGUES AND GLOBAL DISASTERS...

Blood Angels, sit back and watch the show as the an Alternative us Kills them selves.

gendoikari87 wrote:So what makes C.S. Goto so much more unreliable as a source than all the others in the black library?

Back-flipping Terminators. The constant use of multi-lasers. Transforming Land Raiders. All Eldar secretly worship Slannesh. Eldar Farseer falling in love with a Space Marine. A 30 year-old random guy being turned into a Space Marine, and isn't killed when he has weird tentacle hands. There's more, believe me.

You're in denial. The Game-rules are changed to make it balanced, or as what the author thinks is balanced. They aren't related.

By this reasoning guardsmen could be more skilled than marines, or bigger, and stronger.

Lolwut? You can't get that from this line of reasoning in any way!

First off, we're screwed, our leaders incompetent, trying to fight a more numerically and scientifically advance force with air supremecy.

We should capitulate.

I would personally try and join the guard citing previus military experience. Always wanted to see other planets... and hey, I get a laser gun. Can't beat getting a laser gun.

Colonel Dakura wrote:From my friend (this is copied from a message on facebook) - The U.S was beaten by a bunch of illiterate rice farmers in 1965-75. The Imperium has better equipment, better training and MUCH more manpower. No one has said the autocannon is a 120mm more likely a 60-70mm. To make thing fair, let's remove both navies. That means the vast majority of you're cruise missiles will disappear and our orbital firepower goes. Despite this, the IoM would still have the edge in firepower, equipment (if you dispute this, try and argue with plasma, melta, laser and vortex technology), maneouvrability and manpower. Then we have your sources: Imperial armour (everyone agrees is unreliable), you're knowledge of American weaponry which has most likely been affected by propaganda, and inquisitor which is a game. See a problem there?

Yes because propaganda changes the laws of physics? Also, what makes your sources so much more reliable, and imperial armour unreliable, you haven't really said that yet, and your novels are at best inconsistent. Your argument is falling apart. Also plasma technology? Not really better than shaped charges, maybe cheaper. Melta? Close range, Might be a lot more powerful but the guy with it has to get close, which might be possible for a guardsmen, but a marine? well you can see them coming from a mile away, and they can't just sneak up, even drop podding in they're vulnerable. Lasers? yeah they're good, guided missiles are better.

Back-flipping Terminators. The constant use of multi-lasers. Transforming Land Raiders. All Eldar secretly worship Slannesh. Eldar Farseer falling in love with a Space Marine. A 30 year-old random guy being turned into a Space Marine, and isn't killed when he has weird tentacle hands. There's more, believe me.

Your point? your sources have people getting shot in the head, and surviving, Magic armor that's impenetrable, and an infantry weapon that can kill a tank. All of which is just unlikely. So again, why is your source so much more reliable than C.S. Goto, is it your opinion, because that's the only thing separating it, both are just as far from the source material.

The U.S was beaten by a bunch of illiterate rice farmers in 1965-75. The Imperium has better equipment, better training and MUCH more manpower.

Uh huh, and why did we get beaten again? I'll give you a hint it wasn't because they were all wearing power armor.

Lolwut? You can't get that from this line of reasoning in any way!

Oh so the rules mean something now? The background stuff in the rulebooks suddenly is valid when it supports YOUR oppinion?

gendoikari87 wrote:

Back-flipping Terminators. The constant use of multi-lasers. Transforming Land Raiders. All Eldar secretly worship Slannesh. Eldar Farseer falling in love with a Space Marine. A 30 year-old random guy being turned into a Space Marine, and isn't killed when he has weird tentacle hands. There's more, believe me.

Your point? your sources have people getting shot in the head, and surviving, Magic armor that's impenetrable, and an infantry weapon that can kill a tank. All of which is just unlikely. So again, why is your source so much more reliable than C.S. Goto, is it your opinion, because that's the only thing separating it, both are just as far from the source material.

My sources were books from renowned Black Library authors that have time, and time again, proven that they can be consistent within the universe. You won't find crap like the above in any of Graham McNeil's or Aron Dembski-Bowden's books. C.S Goto just invented stuff, his Dawn of War books are not good sources of reason and reliability.

Lolwut? You can't get that from this line of reasoning in any way!

Oh so the rules mean something now? The background stuff in the rulebooks suddenly is valid when it supports YOUR oppinion?

Now you're not making any sense. The background section in the rulebook is always valid, I've never said otherwise. The RULES aren't, because they don't stick to what the fluff says.

My sources were books from renowned Black Library authors that have time, and time again, proven that they can be consistent within the universe. You won't find crap like the above in any of Graham McNeil's or Aron Dembski-Bowden's books. C.S Goto just invented stuff, his Dawn of War books are not good sources of reason and reliability.

Black library author v Black library author.

Now you're not making any sense. The background section in the rulebook is always valid, I've never said otherwise. The RULES aren't, because they don't stick to what the fluff says

.............. You mean like the background section in imperial armour Volume II on the landraider?

.... Do you even get that your logic is inconsistent?

Colonel Dakura wrote:The U.S was beaten by a bunch of illiterate rice farmers in 1965-75.

Militarily speaking, the US dominated the Vietnam War. The fact that they eventually left wasn't actually because the Vietcong were defeating the US forces.

gendoikari87 wrote:

My sources were books from renowned Black Library authors that have time, and time again, proven that they can be consistent within the universe. You won't find crap like the above in any of Graham McNeil's or Aron Dembski-Bowden's books. C.S Goto just invented stuff, his Dawn of War books are not good sources of reason and reliability.

Black library author v Black library author.

Yep. And as such, C.S Goto is the worst author we've seen for Black Library, hence why no one uses his books as a source for anything, even when it would benefit them. Example, the agility of Space Marines, if a Terminator can backflip, Power Armoured Marines can parkour like champs. But, I wouldn't because they source is unreliable. Soul Hunter however, is very reliable.

Now you're not making any sense. The background section in the rulebook is always valid, I've never said otherwise. The RULES aren't, because they don't stick to what the fluff says

.............. You mean like the background section in imperial armour Volume II on the landraider?

.... Do you even get that your logic is inconsistent?

I do not. It's you who aren't making the blindest bit of sense. The game-rules are exempt from a discussion on the background, because the two are separate. What you cited was a source that contradicted what the Land Raider can actually do in the fluff.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Because, as I have already said, they have so many troopers that they swarm around them and overwhelm them with sheer numbers.

true but man for man we're still the superior force against guard.

That's not true in any way. Flak armour is far superior to IBA, the Lasgun is more accurate, efficient and penetrative than any modern assault rifle, Guardsmen have experience of full scale war whereas modern soldiers haven't, Elysian and Cadian Guardsmen especially have far more thorough training than our most elite SF, and it isn't even worth mentioning Kasrkin and similair. I imagine the second we see thousands of laser and plasma shots flying towards us we'd run for the hills- because modern soldiers aren't any where near as experienced as the average Guardsman.

Soul Hunter however, is very reliable.

Only your opinion not fact.

Let me put it to you simple like.


You

The background section in the rulebook is always valid

Imperial Armour GW officially sanctioned rulebook

Page 82 Background Section

The front armor is 98 mm Thick, but provides protection equivalent to approximately 300mm conventional steel armor

Chapter Approved Page 78, background part of the entry, diagram

91-95mm (note: 2 layers of ceramite, 1 titanium/plasteel layer, 1 adamantium layer and 1 thermoplas layer, equivalent to 365mm conventional steel armour)

same thing shows up in Lexicanum. three sources in general agreeance.

Now if you want consistency, the autocannon at 25-30mm Cannot penetrate it, the basic gen 2 Imperial guard Krak missile is just shy. ALL IN AGREEANCE. You have selected a source from a pool that is extremely inconsistant and often written by people who do not care much about the background, and therefore cannot be trusted. Not only that, but they are NOT DIRECT SOURCES, mine are.

You loose. Period, you have no argument against this unless you can pull from material DIRECT from GW, or forgeworld to prove otherwise.

I'm not making sense to you, because you don't want me to.

It's valid alright, it still contradicts with what Land Raiders are seen as doing in the fluff. Have a look at what First Claw's Land Raider manages to shrug off in Soul Hunter. That's what a Land Raider is like, not what the idiots writing stats for Imperial Armour think. Yes, they are fools to think that Adamantium, a substance even GW says is stronger than anything we have on earth, coupled with two layers of a substance that shrugs of multiple Autocannon shots and conducts almost no heat is equal to not even half of what is on an Abrams. And this is apparently the most heavily armoured vehicle the Astartes can field. I can guarantee there's a few examples in that very book that contradict the stats they give.


Oh, and Lexicanum isn't an extra source for you to add on there.

Why does everyone assume the Imperial Guard is a bunch of bumbling fools? I know someone has to be the butt monkey of the game to make the poster boys look better, but honestly your flanderizing them to death. A single regiment will have no combined arms tactics because regiments are comprised of either Infantry, Armor, or Artillery as stated in Codex Imperial Guard. An Imperial Battle group is made up of multiple regiments. So you'll have the ability to have combined arms type warfare. The Imperial Guard is the best of the planets PDF, either having actual combat experience, or trained in military academies. Again, Imperial Guard Codex, so its canon. Dark Hersey states The Guard is the back bone of the Imperium's military might. Proving Millions UPON millions of well-trained men and women. The Guard has many different styles, from vast conscript armies ("Conscription: compulsory enrollment of persons especially for military service" from Marriam-Webster), elite special forces, massive tank columns and glorious sabre welding cavalry.

Imperial Guard commanders can rely on advisers who can predict the future (the astrpath), or Can coordinate with the navy to disrupt enemy reinforcements. (Officer of the fleet)

The standard body armor of the guard is sufficient to stop a .50cal round.
Carapace, which grenadiers and heavy assault regiments are equipped with can stop bolters, which must have more penetrating power then a .50cal.

The humble lasgun has better range than an autogun (equivalent to or better then our assault rifles) has a bigger clip, is more reliable, cost less and can be recharge by either the sun, electrical outlets, or in emergencies, fire. (source: Dark Hersey)

The Imperious will have complete air superiority. The whole space ships in orbit that the us cant hurt ensures this. They will target military installations, and destruct manufacturing plants and the ability to move troops.

The Imperium will outnumber us significantly. Thats SOP with the Guard.

Now the whole time you've been using the US army as the main opponent. Guess what, most of the worlds militarizes are not as advanced as us. South and Central America, falls almost immediately. Africa same. Russia and China might hold them off for a while, but again they are not as advanced as the US. So you got North America, and Europe left, with a pocket of US soldiers in Iraq who will hold out. Eastern Europe is not as advanced as the west, so it falls. The Lord General Militant's Tacticians realizes we are reliant on fossil fuels. Imperial Spec ops and/or Navy assets target our refineries and oil fields. The US runs out of oil. Its tanks mean nothing. Its planes mean nothing. Its reduced to a army 100 years out of date.

Now if you want to see an example of this on a smaller scale, i suggest you research World War 2. Germany was denied oil, its superior tanks and planes where no use. The allies had air superiority so the Germans had trouble moving troops. And the allies out numbered the Germans. The allies also struck at Germany's weaker allies and took them out of the fight. This would be the IoM annexation of Earth.

Now your going to cherry pick and only answer one thing, and this discussion will continue to be one giant circle. Long story short, WE LOSE.

Note: Not to dis any other country out there, i'm just proving a point, I honestly dont think my country could fight the IoM either, and our military is one of the biggest and most advanced in the world.

Edit: I forgot all about psykers. Something Earth has never seen before. So just using the Imperial Guard codex, they will make infantry abandon their post out of fear, sheer mind numbing fear. Rip them to shreds with warp energy, or electrocute them with warp lightning (i always imagine the Emperor's lightning from Return of the Jedi). Using other sources, it gets worse.

UNREALPwnage wrote:Has anyone seen independence day? The US would totally win.
But in reality I would be the first one to surrender as soon as thiere ships landed.

So a crappy american scifi-movie proves that they would win the IoM? All Hollywood movies have that inevitable "happy ending".

@ gendoikari87 (again from my friend) - no they were not wearing power armour, I used it to get it through that thick skull of yours that the US armed forces are NOT invulnerable as you seem to believe. And my source is called common sense and history. And you appear to believe that superheated ionised gas (superheated as in 50,000+ .C) isn't as good as a shaped charge. There are shaped charge equivalents in 40K too, they're called Krak missiles/grenades. And to represent their obviously superior pentetrating power, they have an AP higher than plasma in all forms. And no propaganda doesn't change physics it just makes people like you blindly believe that their weapons are vastly superior to everything else. Mano a Mano, the US military may be superior than the average guardsman, it's funny to see how drastically the odds change when you throw the rest of the Imperium in. They will outnumber you at least 20:1 an exceptionally conservative estimate if you ask me more likely 100,000:1 really minus marines, air support and armour.

@somerandomevilguy (again from my friend) - Technically the VC were because they booby-trapped everything, and as such made the marines suspicious which in turn made them "waste" civvies, who then became VC and the fact that the kill ratios are generally exaggerated. The Australian kill ratios are much smaller because they said only a corpse or a 200m blood trail counts as a kill.

@ gendoikari87 (from me) - I personally have NO interest on any level of any military organisation (and therefore next to nothing in the way of knowledge) as i find it waste of time, resources and people, but i know that continuing this argument is completely pointless as regardless of skill or an infantry's wargear, a vast space fleet ready to annihilate any and all ground forces with a very fierce orbital bombardment kind of overrules any ground infantry. Even without Orbital support, how do you plan on dealing with Terminators? Bearing in mind a scout is essentially the equivalent of today's Juggernaut.

Guess what, most of the worlds militarizes are not as advanced as us.

Only using them as an example because they are the standard. For instance most modernized tanks are roughly equivalent to the M1A2 Abrams. Challenger 2, Leopard, Chinese Type 99, T-12 and T-90. Most of the world uses some form of 5.56x45NATO assault rifle, but have access to 7.62x51Nato assault rifles. Most have some form reuseable Gen III RPG capable of 600mm penetration or better, and a disposable. Forms differ, but it mostly stays the same.

sabre welding cavalry

Lol, roughriders would be fethed, and pretty useless.

The standard body armor of the guard is sufficient to stop a .50cal round.

This is bs. Flack armor is flexible even if the round doesn't penetrate it's going to kill.

Carapace, which grenadiers and heavy assault regiments are equipped with can stop bolters, which must have more penetrating power then a .50cal.

False notion, Greatly reduced weight and density, even with the hardened tip mean they're not anywhere near as penetrating. Even with increased speed.

The humble lasgun has better range than an autogun

does it say what the range was?

The Imperious will have complete air superiority. The whole space ships in orbit that the us cant hurt ensures this.

Which almost completely negates the need for a ground war in the first place.

Russia and China might hold them off for a while, but again they are not as advanced as the US

Guess I probably shouldn't mention that the Chinese have just as good, if not better tech than we do.

Eastern Europe is not as advanced as the west

Again bs, supplied by the russians.





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And you appear to believe that superheated ionised gas (superheated as in 50,000+ .C) isn't as good as a shaped charge.

it's not it dissipates quickly and the jet of the shaped charge is a copper spear that travels in excess of 10k/s

So a crappy american scifi-movie proves that they would win the IoM? All Hollywood movies have that inevitable "happy ending".

That was sarcasm. Seriously, people, get you a snark-o-meter when reading on the internet. Much will make sense.

As far as the IoM versus Earth?

Earth loses. There's a reason we separate our military into "regular dudes/dudettes" and "Special Forces". Fighting the Imperial Guard is like fighting several million dudes and dudettes from "the Special Forces" all at the same time.

And they have laser guns.

You cannot possibly fathom what an army that is ten million soldiers strong looks like. China, with the world's largest land military, doesn't even get to half that. The IoM may deploy that many just to make a strong impression, and not feth around with the operation for too long.

, a vast space fleet ready to annihilate any and all ground forces with a very fierce orbital bombardment kind of overrules any ground infantry.

I believe I already made this point a while back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

You cannot possibly fathom what an army that is ten million soldiers strong looks like. China, with the world's largest land military, doesn't even get to half that. The IoM may deploy that many just to make a strong impression, and not feth around with the operation for too long.

So much bs here, chinas army is 300million strong. 2million active duty and can call up 300million

If the imperium is only throwing 10,000,000 guardsmen and 2000 space marines at us, excluding the giant space ships we win, big.

Likely they would throw something like a BILLION at us.

300 million? Riiiiiiiight. In what imaginary world is this? They have around 4.5 million, with the capability to enroll a huge amount of ordinary citizens. Not much an army considering this would A. Never happen, because they aren't going to call up every single soldier they can find at once B. Never happen because the logistics would be impossible. C. Never happen because it would cripple China's war capability due to the resources and D. Never happen because all command within every major country in the world will be taken out within a few days, that includes China.

If the Imperium throws that at us we're doomed. Those forces are superior in every way.
Still, what can we do against Titans, against Psykers, against Super-heavies, against all the other tech Space Marines bring to the field?

iproxtaco wrote:300 million? Riiiiiiiight. In what imaginary world is this? They have around 4.5 million.

2.2 Million Active duty
800,000 Reserve
385,821,101 men availible for military duty
363,789,674 Women availible for military duty.

america
1.4M active
1.4M Reserve
only 73M and 72M availible for Duty

@ gendokari87. The fething navy is not being excluded. Its not called IoM landforces vs earth. Its IoM vs Earth. Sure we'd put up a fight, sure we'd kill some guardsmen, but we will lose. Stop cherry picking or admit defeat.

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:300 million? Riiiiiiiight. In what imaginary world is this? They have around 4.5 million.

2.2 Million Active duty
800,000 Reserve
385,821,101 men availible for military duty
363,789,674 Women availible for military duty.

america
1.4M active
1.4M Reserve
only 73M and 72M availible for Duty

Your point fails. Neither country is capable of enlisting it's entire adult population, even during peace-time, let alone when facing a force as dominating as the Imperium.